Right Wing Discussion Thread IX: The Right Man's Burden

[War Gears]

Eh, Japan was in their right to remove unwanted and non-traditional elements from their society...it was none of Europe's business what Japan did with their own people.

Yeah, can't have the peasants thinking that they're worth anything, right?

Honestly, it's sort of hilarious saying this when Christianized Japanese were literally participating in a slave trade with the Portuguese, selling their fellow Japanese into slavery, something which offended Hideyoshi's sensibilities.

Though his main issue was that missionaries were converting daimyo and then these daimyo were giving large parts of their fiefs to the church, which, uh, sort of goes against the whole basis of feudalism. It had nothing to do with the peasants thinking they were "worth anything." based on the fact that the rulers had absolute life and death over their subjects, it's hard to say how many conversions were genuine (and bear in mind that a lot of conversions by samurai were for the trade benefits it brought due to merchants).

[Conserative Morality]

Honestly, it's sort of hilarious saying this when Christianized Japanese were literally participating in a slave trade with the Portuguese, selling their fellow Japanese into slavery, something which offended Hideyoshi's sensibilities.

Though his main issue was that missionaries were converting daimyo and then these daimyo were giving large parts of their fiefs to the church, which, uh, sort of goes against the whole basis of feudalism. It had nothing to do with the peasants thinking they were "worth anything." based on the fact that the rulers had absolute life and death over their subjects, it's hard to say how many conversions were genuine (and bear in mind that a lot of conversions by samurai were for the trade benefits it brought due to merchants).

Daily reminder that Real Leader Of Japan Nobunaga encouraged the Christian Church because that kind of bullshit was nothing new considering the temporal power of Buddhist religious institutions and the counterbalance would've been good.

[War Gears]

Implying that things such as Misin tapa undong were voluntary.

They tried doing the same in Japan earlier, destroying Buddhist and Shinto places of worship and replacing them with churches. Fortunately Hideyoshi Toyotomi showed them the door.

Japan should have been militarily occupied by Europe completely when they began crucifying Christians.
I'm not even being ironic.

No, they shouldn't have, that's completely ridiculous. This being the 16th century, the West didn't even have that much of an advantage over Japan in terms of technological superiority either, which would've made it even more stupid.

[Salus Maior]

Yeah, can't have the peasants thinking that they're worth anything, right?

Honestly, it's sort of hilarious saying this when Christianized Japanese were literally participating in a slave trade with the Portuguese, selling their fellow Japanese into slavery, something which offended Hideyoshi's sensibilities.

Though his main issue was that missionaries were converting daimyo and then these daimyo were giving large parts of their fiefs to the church, which, uh, sort of goes against the whole basis of feudalism. It had nothing to do with the peasants thinking they were "worth anything." based on the fact that the rulers had absolute life and death over their subjects, it's hard to say how many conversions were genuine (and bear in mind that a lot of conversions by samurai were for the trade benefits it brought due to merchants).

Uh...Medieval Europe much?

Also, what about all that land the Buddhists were using.

[The East Marches II]

Japan should have been militarily occupied by Europe completely when they began crucifying Christians.
I'm not even being ironic.

No, they shouldn't have, that's completely ridiculous. This being the 16th century, the West didn't even have that much of an advantage over Japan in terms of technological superiority either, which would've made it even more stupid.

Like Caesar beat the Gauls before they could become civilized properly, we should have stopped the Japs.

[Salus Maior]

No, they shouldn't have, that's completely ridiculous. This being the 16th century, the West didn't even have that much of an advantage over Japan in terms of technological superiority either, which would've made it even more stupid.

Like Caesar beat the Gauls before they could become civilized properly, we should have stopped the Japs.

The thing is, the Japanese adopted tactics that would be comparable to Western about as soon as they got their hands on guns.

[The East Marches II]

Like Caesar beat the Gauls before they could become civilized properly, we should have stopped the Japs.

The thing is, the Japanese adopted tactics that would be comparable to Western about as soon as they got their hands on guns.

Sure, sure. I know you are barbarian sympathizer but do try to keep up.

[Northern Davincia]

Japan should have been militarily occupied by Europe completely when they began crucifying Christians.
I'm not even being ironic.

That doesn't sound Christian. Christianity embraces martyrdom and opposes fighting those who persecute you.

"May he defend the cause of the poor of the people, give deliverance to the children of the needy, and crush the oppressor!" -Psalm 72:4

[Northern Davincia]

Then keep them under Catholic occupation. Protestants can keep China.

Eh, Japan was in their right to remove unwanted and non-traditional elements from their society...it was none of Europe's business what Japan did with their own people.

It is in Europe's interest to oversee the spread of Christendom, as well as the reduction in lesser civilizational traits.
Such as rule by a god-emperor or neglect of the needy.

[War Gears]

Honestly, it's sort of hilarious saying this when Christianized Japanese were literally participating in a slave trade with the Portuguese, selling their fellow Japanese into slavery, something which offended Hideyoshi's sensibilities.

Though his main issue was that missionaries were converting daimyo and then these daimyo were giving large parts of their fiefs to the church, which, uh, sort of goes against the whole basis of feudalism. It had nothing to do with the peasants thinking they were "worth anything." based on the fact that the rulers had absolute life and death over their subjects, it's hard to say how many conversions were genuine (and bear in mind that a lot of conversions by samurai were for the trade benefits it brought due to merchants).

Uh...Medieval Europe much?

Also, what about all that land the Buddhists were using.

While it developed independently of European feudalism, the Japanese social system has been described by various sources as feudal. Land was distributed to various lords in exchange for their loyalty and there were obligations between liege and vassal, much in the same way of Europe. It's these obligations that are brought up when Toyotomi issued his order to expel missionaries.

If one receives a province, a district, or a village as his fief, and forces farmers in his domain who are properly registered under certain temples to become followers of the padre against their wishes, then he has committed a most unreasonable illegal act.

When a vassal (kyūnin) receives a grant of a province or a district, he must consider it as property entrusted to him on a temporary basis. A vassal may be moved from one place to another, but farmers remain in the same place. Thus if an unreasonable illegal act is committed [as described above], the vassal will be called upon to account for his culpable offense. The intent of this provision must be observed.

Buddhists weren't tearing up shrines, committing various taboos such as eating pork, as well as selling other Japanese people to foreigners.

Implying that things such as Misin tapa undong were voluntary.

They tried doing the same in Japan earlier, destroying Buddhist and Shinto places of worship and replacing them with churches. Fortunately Hideyoshi Toyotomi showed them the door.

Japan should have been militarily occupied by Europe completely when they began crucifying Christians.
I'm not even being ironic.

Also, it's probably important to point out that by that time in his life, Hideyoshi was becoming increasingly unhinged mentally. A few years before the crucifixions, he had made his nephew commit suicide and butchered his family when they didn't follow suit because of paranoia. Many of the atrocities of the European powers didn't have that excuse.

[Salus Maior]

Also, it's probably important to point out that by that time in his life, Hideyoshi was becoming increasingly unhinged mentally. A few years before the crucifixions, he had made his nephew commit suicide and butchered his family when they didn't follow suit because of paranoia. Many of the atrocities of the European powers didn't have that excuse.

That's pretty in-line with Japanese Bushido culture tbh.

[War Gears]

Honestly, it's sort of hilarious saying this when Christianized Japanese were literally participating in a slave trade with the Portuguese, selling their fellow Japanese into slavery, something which offended Hideyoshi's sensibilities.

Though his main issue was that missionaries were converting daimyo and then these daimyo were giving large parts of their fiefs to the church, which, uh, sort of goes against the whole basis of feudalism. It had nothing to do with the peasants thinking they were "worth anything." based on the fact that the rulers had absolute life and death over their subjects, it's hard to say how many conversions were genuine (and bear in mind that a lot of conversions by samurai were for the trade benefits it brought due to merchants).

Daily reminder that Real Leader Of Japan Nobunaga encouraged the Christian Church because that kind of bullshit was nothing new considering the temporal power of Buddhist religious institutions and the counterbalance would've been good.

If he had been really intelligent or a real leader of Japan, he'd have supported the growing Shinto sects and used them to counterbalance Buddhism, but he did not. This lack of intelligence was probably the reason he was killed. :^)

[Salus Maior]

Buddhists weren't tearing up shrines, committing various taboos such as eating pork, as well as selling other Japanese people to foreigners.

Eating pork, what an atrocity. Didn't know that Japan was Muslim/Jewish.

[Aillyria]

Not saying I'm agreeing with what Japan was doing, but Christianity is ultimately not Japanese it is alien to their traditional culture. How would Europe like Japan to have spead Shinto or Buddhism in their countries?

This is coming from a Muslim?

What are you getting at?

[Salus Maior]

This is coming from a Muslim?

What are you getting at?

Islam was generally spread to places that were "alien" to it.

Generally through conquest, but not always.

[The East Marches II]

Daily reminder that Real Leader Of Japan Nobunaga encouraged the Christian Church because that kind of bullshit was nothing new considering the temporal power of Buddhist religious institutions and the counterbalance would've been good.

If he had been really intelligent or a real leader of Japan, he'd have supported the growing Shinto sects and used them to counterbalance Buddhism, but he did not. This lack of intelligence was probably the reason he was killed. :^)

Both of you are plebs for reading the Hagakure.

[War Gears]

Also, it's probably important to point out that by that time in his life, Hideyoshi was becoming increasingly unhinged mentally. A few years before the crucifixions, he had made his nephew commit suicide and butchered his family when they didn't follow suit because of paranoia. Many of the atrocities of the European powers didn't have that excuse.

That's pretty in-line with Japanese Bushido culture tbh.

Making your family member who you'd previously adopted as a son commit suicide for the crime of simply existing is not the hallmark of sanity, and was more than likely seen as deranged by his fellow samurai at the time.

Eh, Japan was in their right to remove unwanted and non-traditional elements from their society...it was none of Europe's business what Japan did with their own people.

It is in Europe's interest to oversee the spread of Christendom, as well as the reduction in lesser civilizational traits.
Such as rule by a god-emperor or neglect of the needy.

Because no poor existed in majority Christian countries at the time of the 16th century, or today in the 21st.

Buddhism had a concept of helping the poor too, y'know.

In regards to the concept of the Emperor as arahitogami, how is that "uncivilized?"

[Aillyria]

Eh, Japan was in their right to remove unwanted and non-traditional elements from their society...it was none of Europe's business what Japan did with their own people.

It is in Europe's interest to oversee the spread of Christendom, as well as the reduction in lesser civilizational traits.
Such as rule by a god-emperor or neglect of the needy.

Yes, and it was in Japan's interest to see to the preservation of their culture. And that's pretty interesting say that Japan was "lesser" for neglecting the needy, when that happened in Catholic dominated Europe too.

What are you getting at?

Islam was generally spread to places that were "alien" to it.

Generally through conquest, but not always.

True.

My point is if you're going to try to infect another nation with your religion, you can't cry if your converts are punished by the native government.

[Salus Maior]

Making your family member who you'd previously adopted as a son commit suicide for the crime of simply existing is not the hallmark of sanity, and was more than likely seen as deranged by his fellow samurai at the time.

They would have likely seen it as well within his power. Other Daimyo were known for ordering their Samurai to kill their own relatives just to prove loyalty.

Because when you get down to it, Samurai really aren't that honorable a group. Their "honor" was to do as their lord will, as his servants (which is what "Samurai" means). That's what defined everything they did.

[Salus Maior]

Yes, and it was in Japan's interest to see to the preservation of their culture. And that's pretty interesting say that Japan was "lesser" for neglecting the needy, when that happened in Catholic dominated Europe too.

My point is if you're going to try to infect another nation with your religion, you can't cry if your converts are punished by the native government.

Read that as "preservation of the status quo that favors the sitting lords at the time".

No, that's barbaric. Unless you think in general it's fine to persecute minorities if it "doesn't fit your culture"? ISIS will be pleased.

[War Gears]

If he had been really intelligent or a real leader of Japan, he'd have supported the growing Shinto sects and used them to counterbalance Buddhism, but he did not. This lack of intelligence was probably the reason he was killed. :^)

Both of you are plebs for reading the Hagakure.

Daily reminder that the Japanese were right and merchants belonged on the bottom of society. :^)

[The East Marches II]

Yes, and it was in Japan's interest to see to the preservation of their culture. And that's pretty interesting say that Japan was "lesser" for neglecting the needy, when that happened in Catholic dominated Europe too.

My point is if you're going to try to infect another nation with your religion, you can't cry if your converts are punished by the native government.

Read that as "preservation of the status quo that favors the sitting lords at the time".

No, that's barbaric. Unless you think in general it's fine to persecute minorities if it "doesn't fit your culture"? ISIS will be pleased.

There is nothing wrong with that persecution, it works wonders. Ask your fellow Catholics in France :^)

[The East Marches II]

Both of you are plebs for reading the Hagakure.

Daily reminder that the Japanese were right and merchants belonged on the bottom of society. :^)

Daily Reminder: Japan was a mistake and it is rightful Chinese clay :^)

[Salus Maior]

[

There is nothing wrong with that persecution, it works wonders. Ask your fellow Catholics in France :^)

Are you saying I should bring Aellex to this thread? :^) Didn't know you had such fond feelings for the French. :^)

[Conserative Morality]

Daily reminder that Real Leader Of Japan Nobunaga encouraged the Christian Church because that kind of bullshit was nothing new considering the temporal power of Buddhist religious institutions and the counterbalance would've been good.

If he had been really intelligent or a real leader of Japan, he'd have supported the growing Shinto sects and used them to counterbalance Buddhism, but he did not. This lack of intelligence was probably the reason he was killed. :^)

>> using syncretic religions to fight syncretic religions

0/10 do not pass go do not collect 200$

Both of you are plebs for reading the Hagakure.

But how would you know how plebbish the Hagakure is unless you yourself have read it? =^)