BREXIT Mega Thread (The Saga Begins?)

[Vassenor]

Only economic study showing benefits of Brexit debunked as 'doubly misleading'

Oh dear.

[Dumb Ideologies]

In the post-factual world of the remoaners, the words "migration" and "sovereignty" have been creatively detached from the real concepts they refer to in an effort to pretend that they weren't pressing issues that people could legitimately have opinions on; everyone who voted Brexit was just racist, stupid or whatever other snarl word is the order of the day.

They've trained themselves only to hear buzzing when the words are said, or perhaps that's just the swarm of bees in their bonnets.

Even the British government disagrees with you wrt to its sovereignty.

Theresa May's government - that well-known source of rationality and poise on matters constitutional, font of sound and successful legal arguments - disagrees with me? If this is so, I of course immediately retract my foolish arguments before such a learned and competent opponent.

I could only now be persuaded back to my former stance if renowned scholar Barry Chuckle issued a dissenting opinion.

[Proctopeo]

The Pound is back up to $1.28, with the Euro still currently around $1.07.

[Great Nepal]

Even the British government disagrees with you wrt to its sovereignty.

Theresa May's government - that well-known source of rationality and poise on matters constitutional, font of sound and successful legal arguments - disagrees with me? If this is so, I of course immediately retract my foolish arguments before such a learned and competent opponent.

I could only now be persuaded back to my former stance if renowned scholar Barry Chuckle issued a dissenting opinion.

If the party whose sovereignty you allege was infringed upon states its sovereignty was never actually infringed upon, it rather weakens your point.

[Questers]

What people mean when they say the EU is "forced" upon them is that the political establishment, represented by the Party machines, was much more pro EU (in many EU countries) than the actual population, but because representative democracy is a choice between platforms rather than a series of individual choices, there was no way for this anti-EU feeling to be represented other than by spending a vote on a minor party (and most of Europe actually have reinforced proportional representation, so that's still an issue).

For example, British voters in the 90s and 00s had a choice between Labour and Conservative if they wanted their vote to really matter (or the SNP, I guess?). So you could vote for the pro EU party, or the pro EU party. If you wanted to vote for a minor, but still influential party, you could vote SNP or LD, so again you vote for the pro EU party or... the pro EU party. Yet when the country comes to referendum, anti-EU feeling is actually in the plurality. And even if it wasn't in the plurality, it was still big enough for it to be unusual that it wasn't represented by any major party.

This is actually very obvious, but it's much harder to articulate quickly than it is to just say "it was forced on us," which is pragmatically, if not semantically, correct.

[Hydesland]

Why? If I "bill" you for 10k right now is it lousy optics for you to refuse to pay it?

Depends on what you bill me for.

[Eredion]

What people mean when they say the EU is "forced" upon them is that the political establishment, represented by the Party machines, was much more pro EU (in many EU countries) than the actual population, but because representative democracy is a choice between platforms rather than a series of individual choices, there was no way for this anti-EU feeling to be represented other than by spending a vote on a minor party (and most of Europe actually have reinforced proportional representation, so that's still an issue).

For example, British voters in the 90s and 00s had a choice between Labour and Conservative if they wanted their vote to really matter (or the SNP, I guess?). So you could vote for the pro EU party, or the pro EU party. If you wanted to vote for a minor, but still influential party, you could vote SNP or LD, so again you vote for the pro EU party or... the pro EU party. Yet when the country comes to referendum, anti-EU feeling is actually in the plurality. And even if it wasn't in the plurality, it was still big enough for it to be unusual that it wasn't represented by any major party.

This is actually very obvious, but it's much harder to articulate quickly than it is to just say "it was forced on us," which is pragmatically, if not semantically, correct.

That´s much more a mistake of the individual parties than the fault of the EU. It did not force any party to be pro EU, the members of the parties decided to give their party this leaning. So it is again false that the EU was forced on anyone, if anything, a pro-EU government was "forced" on the electorate, but if there is such a huge anti-EU feeling and there are not any people smart enough to capitalise on this untapped voter potential, then I must say that the politics in that country seem to be a bit slow.

Extra: I still believe it is much better to have a representative democracy than a direct democracy.

[Questers]

That´s much more a mistake of the individual parties than the fault of the EU. It did not force any party to be pro EU, the members of the parties decided to give their party this leaning. So it is again false that the EU was forced on anyone, if anything, a pro-EU government was "forced" on the electorate, but if there is such a huge anti-EU feeling and there are not any people smart enough to capitalise on this untapped voter potential, then I must say that the politics in that country seem to be a bit slow.

Extra: I still believe it is much better to have a representative democracy than a direct democracy.

(a) This is true in all Eurosceptic countries, since all EU countries are representative democracies.

(b) 'The EU was forced on anyone' is a passive sentence. Try writing it in the active voice to get a more truthful answer.

(c) Actually it speaks volumes - that the benefits of the EU are closer to people who are involved in politics, and distant from the people who are not. Politicians are a highly detached group: it's a criticism of the nature of the EU that it appeals so much to detached, cosmopolitan elites and so little to (some) others.

[Great Nepal]

What people mean when they say the EU is "forced" upon them is that the political establishment, represented by the Party machines, was much more pro EU (in many EU countries) than the actual population, but because representative democracy is a choice between platforms rather than a series of individual choices, there was no way for this anti-EU feeling to be represented other than by spending a vote on a minor party (and most of Europe actually have reinforced proportional representation, so that's still an issue).

For example, British voters in the 90s and 00s had a choice between Labour and Conservative if they wanted their vote to really matter (or the SNP, I guess?). So you could vote for the pro EU party, or the pro EU party. If you wanted to vote for a minor, but still influential party, you could vote SNP or LD, so again you vote for the pro EU party or... the pro EU party. Yet when the country comes to referendum, anti-EU feeling is actually in the plurality. And even if it wasn't in the plurality, it was still big enough for it to be unusual that it wasn't represented by any major party.

This is actually very obvious, but it's much harder to articulate quickly than it is to just say "it was forced on us," which is pragmatically, if not semantically, correct.

...but that is a silly argument - EU has nothing to do with makeup of the domestic political parties, it is the whole thing about blaming issues that are in domestic control on EU all over again.
Even if we ignore that and focus on the mythical 'establishment' caricature who is not giving voters an alternative - that argument could be made for everything where consensus exists - capitalism is forced on most of the world, NHS is forced upon the British people, democracy is forced on people across the western world, Brexit is forced on the people, Union is forced upon the Cornish people etc. I guess you could define being forced upon to mean not having an existing choice for your position who is also sufficiently popular to have a shot at forming the government but that'd be a silly definition. It is possible to change x within the existing system, you're able to campaign to change x without facing state sanction, therefore x isn't forced upon you.

[Vassenor]

Brussels starts to freeze Britain out of EU contracts

[The Conez Imperium]

I love how the Brexiters are now becoming like Donald Trump after his realiastion with healthcare:

"Nobody knew that brexit could be so complicated".

There is a savage pleasure in knowing that the Brexiters with their decision face an inherently bad outcome for Britain. There is a reason why Nigel Farage abandoned ship...

[Souseiseki]

Even the British government disagrees with you wrt to its sovereignty.

Theresa May's government - that well-known source of rationality and poise on matters constitutional, font of sound and successful legal arguments - disagrees with me? If this is so, I of course immediately retract my foolish arguments before such a learned and competent opponent.

I could only now be persuaded back to my former stance if renowned scholar Barry Chuckle issued a dissenting opinion.

actually it was the cameron government. the courts didn't seem to really disagree with him on the matter.

[Jello Biafra]

EU leader: UK would be welcomed back if voters overturn Brexit
Looks like Brexit can be undone after all.

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

Even if we ignore that and focus on the mythical 'establishment' caricature who is not giving voters an alternative - that argument could be made for everything where consensus exists - capitalism is forced on most of the world, NHS is forced upon the British people, democracy is forced on people across the western world, Brexit is forced on the people, Union is forced upon the Cornish people etc.

That argument can be fairly made wherever a consensus exists among people in the apparatus of government that isn't shared by the voting public. That wasn't the case for the EU in the 70s but it was by the 10s and possibly was in the 00s and 90s as well (I don't recall the polling data). It's not true of capitalism, the NHS, democracy, or Cornish incorporation in England. On the other hand it was for a long time true, and may still be true, of death penalty abolition.

[Risottia]

Brussels starts to freeze Britain out of EU contracts

Paywall.

[Eredion]

EU leader: UK would be welcomed back if voters overturn Brexit
Looks like Brexit can be undone after all.

But Brexit will be "forced" upon the British people, because no party is saying that they will reverse the Brexit process.

[Great Nepal]

Even if we ignore that and focus on the mythical 'establishment' caricature who is not giving voters an alternative - that argument could be made for everything where consensus exists - capitalism is forced on most of the world, NHS is forced upon the British people, democracy is forced on people across the western world, Brexit is forced on the people, Union is forced upon the Cornish people etc.

That argument can be fairly made wherever a consensus exists among people in the apparatus of government that isn't shared by the voting public. That wasn't the case for the EU in the 70s but it was by the 10s and possibly was in the 00s and 90s as well (I don't recall the polling data). It's not true of capitalism, the NHS, democracy, or Cornish incorporation in England. On the other hand it was for a long time true, and may still be true, of death penalty abolition.

Logical conclusion of that argument would therefore require there to be periodic referendums on all matters where any shred of controversy exists with a supermajority qualification so as to determine if the consensus of the mainstream political parties is shared by voting public who choose not to vote in manner consistent with their actual views to them determine if something is being forced upon the people.

Given there are communists in Britain, and we can not be certain that they're not just voting for mainstream parties because no credible party supports communism, we must hold a refendum to determine if consensus of mainstream parties on the economic system is shared by the population. Or we can take people having the right to organize and campaign for a party looking to implement Commune of Britain as being sufficient for capitalism to not be forced*.

*ignoring flaws of fptp.

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

We also live in society and can tell by inspection that there aren't a lot of communists about.

[Salandriagado]

Good on you, citizens of the UK. Im happy for you. My opinion of the EU lies somewhere between my opinion of the legislature here in the US and cleaning my sons diapers. Which is to say, not very high at all.

I presume the diapers are the top end of that range?

[Vassenor]

Brussels starts to freeze Britain out of EU contracts

Paywall.

FFS FT.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Paywall.

FFS FT.

I think you may have just slipped into parseltongue.

[Imperializt Russia]

So apparently Scotland is super pissed about all this and wants another referendum?

I'm American so I don't follow British politics really but I've been hearing that a lot.

You can just save this post and bring it out again for every incident ever for the next 50 years or so, provided you edit it to, "Scottish Nationalists.", which is less than half of Scotland, but most of its government.

You support the Conservatives, who at the last election, made up "a quarter" of the UK (24% of the electorate, charitably 36ish% of the votes cast) and made up most of the government.

Why regulate it exactly?
If a bulk-buyer wants class 1, they can specify. All this did was add overhead costs and fuck people over who don't give a shit, which is the vast majority of people, and weaken our banana producers. (A trend that repeats over and over and over in every industry or product the EU takes notice of.)

What prevents a shop like Tesco saying "Before we buy these bananas from you, we have some specifications."?

Nothing. It's endless busybody regulating.

Have you ever worked in a bar? If you have, you should have been made aware of "passing off", which is where a customer asks for something, which you don't technically have, and you serve them a different product anyway.

You ask for Coke and they wordlessly serve you Pepsi; you ask for Smirnoff vodka and they serve you Vladivar, etc.
Is this "endless busybody regulating"? I would argue that very few people would choose to buy so-called "class 2" bananas, given the free choice between them and so-called "class 1" bananas. Through this "class" system, either both can be provided alongside each other (at the stockist's discretion), or Class 2 can be provided at reduced price or discarded at stockist's discretion - they are deformed, or damaged fruits. Unlike broken biscuits, these usually aren't going to be as enjoyable to consume as the "Class 1" fruit, and likely will not keep as long.

[Hurdergaryp]

EU leader: UK would be welcomed back if voters overturn Brexit
Looks like Brexit can be undone after all.

But Brexit will be "forced" upon the British people, because no party is saying that they will reverse the Brexit process.

That's the funny thing about "The People's Will", it always does that.

[Imperializt Russia]

EU leader: UK would be welcomed back if voters overturn Brexit
Looks like Brexit can be undone after all.

But Brexit will be "forced" upon the British people, because no party is saying that they will reverse the Brexit process.

The Lib Dems fairly explicitly are, and every leading party except the Conservatives and UKIP (who I don't think will be a leading party come June 9th - and a not-insurmountable number of Tory MPs are against Hard Brexit too) is against Hard Brexit.

[THE ANARCHIST REFUGE]

BREXIT MOVEMENT IS RACIST. THAT BEING SAID I STILL HATE THE EU