Judge criticised for sentence in domestic abuse case

[Sanctissima]

Why the fuck cant we have ONE clear cut term for Murder?

WHY?

Because there are several types of murder.

Having different definitions for them is one thing.

Making those definitions legally relevant is quite another. While the intent matters, I don't see why killing someone because they're a woman should be punished anymore harshly than killing someone because you don't like them.

[Neo Balka]

Such as?

Patricide (Father), Matricide (Mother), Fratricide (Brother), Sororicide (Sister), ect...

English is a fun language.

Are those usually a factor in murder cases?

[Bressen]

Such as?

Patricide (Father), Matricide (Mother), Fratricide (Brother), Sororicide (Sister), ect...

English is a fun language.

Linguistically, we have descriptions for different types of murder, but I think Neo Balka was referring to legal terminology.

[New haven america]

Patricide (Father), Matricide (Mother), Fratricide (Brother), Sororicide (Sister), ect...

English is a fun language.

Are those usually a factor in murder cases?

Depends.

Usually they're used to be clearer on a murder (Like a sister murdering her brother, that would be fratricide), and can be used interchangeably with homicide.

[Neo Balka]

Are those usually a factor in murder cases?

Depends.

Usually they're used to be clearer on a murder (Like a sister murdering her brother, that would be fratricide), and can be used interchangeably with homicide.

neat.

[Aclion]

How can judges fuck over so many good husbands then pull this bullshit when confronted with actual abuse?

[Bressen]

How can judges fuck over so many good husbands then pull this bullshit when confronted with actual abuse?

I didn't know judges were a hive-mind.

[Khalisako]

How can judges fuck over so many good husbands then pull this bullshit when confronted with actual abuse?

I remember corruption being a big thing among judges particularly.

Not sure if true tho

[Chessmistress]

Exactly.
That's the basis of the law against femicide: it's one of the very first laws officially recognizing that women are more vulnerable to some kinds of violence due the patriarchal structure of the society.
This is the basis for achieving full, substantive, true, equality.

And then in your perfect world, having women rule over men and dictate what societal role people should have, whether they like them or not.

Equality at it's finest.

I don't think it'll be "perfect", hardly it can be, especially at the very first, but however you shouldn't worry, because even if there will be problems then, when and if, men wil begin to suffer then it'll be correct within few years: that's nothing compared to the centuries-long suffering of us.

That's why men shouldn't be afraid.
I'm absolutely sincere about it, many people already know that I'm not a liar.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

And then in your perfect world, having women rule over men and dictate what societal role people should have, whether they like them or not.

Equality at it's finest.

I don't think it'll be "perfect", hardly it can be, especially at the very first, but however you shouldn't worry, because even if there will be problems then, when and if, men wil begin to suffer then it'll be correct within few years: that's nothing compared to the centuries-long suffering of us.

That's why men shouldn't be afraid.
I'm absolutely sincere about it, many people already know that I'm not a liar.

See ... this here. Demanding another group be made to 'suffer because the group Ii identify with has'. This is wrong thinking. This is not justice, nor equality. This is special focus being put on a cause or point that you feel strongly about rather than laying out a fair and honest balance across the board for all human beings, regardless of gender or any other divisible category.

Me, don't want men or anyone else to suffer. Don't want more laws, just to make the existing ones more inclusive and fair, with fair sentencing, and without the bullshit of victim-blaming, and suppositioning, and excuse-making for perpetrators. What you're asking for is revenge, not justice. And that isn't fair or honest at all.

[New haven america]

And then in your perfect world, having women rule over men and dictate what societal role people should have, whether they like them or not.

Equality at it's finest.

I don't think it'll be "perfect", hardly it can be, especially at the very first, but however you shouldn't worry, because even if there will be problems then, when and if, men wil begin to suffer then it'll be correct within few years: that's nothing compared to the centuries-long suffering of us.

That's why men shouldn't be afraid.
I'm absolutely sincere about it, many people already know that I'm not a liar.

And this is how wars start. Also, this is why you're not a feminist.

[Reploid Productions]

Standby, quick trawl in progress.

EDIT: And done.

I think another person should beat him with a bat and try to make him drink bleach,

A fitting punishment for this judge should having him on one of the extremities of the pitch for the next test. Not as umpire. As wicket.

Jail's too damned good for him, he ought to be put to the good ol' firing squad.

Less of the revenge fantasies, please. It's bad enough this is going to be an extremely charged topic already without going on about the various beyond-legal-boundaries abuses people feel the guilty party should be subjected to.

I'm going to assume that you never actually bother reading or understanding on any meaningful level anything anyone posts that disagrees with you and call it a day.

Knock it off, this is nothing but an attack on the poster, rather than addressing their argument. You can dismiss someone's argument without the cheap digs at their intelligence.

And thread unlocked. Let's remember to chill out some and to walk away from the computer when getting worked up. Posting while angry is never a good idea.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Hirota]

While I realise some might see this as recurring theme with me - that some members of the Judiciary in the UK are perhaps not living in the real world, and possibly have some level of bias, or sexism, or other issues, surrounding cases involving women

Yeah. Curious thing is there is evidence that sentencing is more favourable for women. There is some evidence that in general a greater percentage of convicted men are sentenced to prison (men are found guilty of offences roughly 4 times more often than women, but are jailed 20 times more often than women), Men are generally given longer sentences on average than women, and women are generally paroled earlier than men.

With regard to this particular case, it's an absurd piece of sentencing.

[Aethrys]

18 months for attempted murder? Was this guy a titled aristocrat or does the UK have absurdly short sentences for regular people as well?

[Caracasus]

Standby, quick trawl in progress.

EDIT: And done.

I think another person should beat him with a bat and try to make him drink bleach,

A fitting punishment for this judge should having him on one of the extremities of the pitch for the next test. Not as umpire. As wicket.

Jail's too damned good for him, he ought to be put to the good ol' firing squad.

Less of the revenge fantasies, please. It's bad enough this is going to be an extremely charged topic already without going on about the various beyond-legal-boundaries abuses people feel the guilty party should be subjected to.

I'm going to assume that you never actually bother reading or understanding on any meaningful level anything anyone posts that disagrees with you and call it a day.

Knock it off, this is nothing but an attack on the poster, rather than addressing their argument. You can dismiss someone's argument without the cheap digs at their intelligence.

And thread unlocked. Let's remember to chill out some and to walk away from the computer when getting worked up. Posting while angry is never a good idea.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

Fair enough. I may have overstepped a line there.

[Impireacht]

I don't think how many friends the victim has or how educated they are should affect criminal sentencing. It's still the same crime regardless of who it was committed against.

Yes, but also not.
While I'm sure that her status doesn't matter, and we agree about that, I also wish to highlight that this crime also clearly shows contempt against the woman just because she was a woman.
That's why a law specifically against femicide would be important.

I hope you plan to institute a manicide law too, for women who abuse and kill their husbands. And well we're at it, let's just add blackicide, whiteicide, mixicide, nativecide, asiancide, and a whole bunch of other made-up joke crimes to the list. The reason for the crime doesn't matter, murder will be murder, attemped murder is attempted murder, etc. regardless of the race or gender, and both should be prosecuted with enough severity that an extra year or two for "femicide" wouldn't matter anyways. (Yes, I'm saying death sentence for attempted murder, for it is the intent rather than the outcome of the action that should determine a crime. A criminal who tried to murder someone and failed is just as dangerous to society as a criminal who tried to murder someone and succeeded.)

[Calladan]

While I realise some might see this as recurring theme with me - that some members of the Judiciary in the UK are perhaps not living in the real world, and possibly have some level of bias, or sexism, or other issues, surrounding cases involving women

Yeah. Curious thing is there is evidence that sentencing is more favourable for women. There is some evidence that in general a greater percentage of convicted men are sentenced to prison (men are found guilty of offences roughly 4 times more often than women, but are jailed 20 times more often than women), Men are generally given longer sentences on average than women, and women are generally paroled earlier than men.

With regard to this particular case, it's an absurd piece of sentencing.

It's not so much the sentencing between men and women where the sexism occurrs, but when judges rule on certain types of cases. Mostly around domestic abuse, rape, sexual abuse and so on. Where if a guy commits a crime against a woman, and comes up before the right judge, he walks. Or - in a case like this - gets such a ludicrously leinient sentence you have to wonder whether the judge was even paying attention to what was going on in the court.

I entirely accept there might be a bias the other way in other cases, and that is not a good thing either.

But quite honestly I don't know enough to comment one way or the other. And maybe I am wrong in my suppositions in this area as well. But I think that cases like this one require highlighting, because otherwise they just get buried and people just assume everything is fine and that nothing is wrong. And that is something that is as dangerous as these judges issuing these fuckwhitted rulings.

[The Archregimancy]

For what it's worth, literal femicide also forms the basis of plot of the science fiction short story 'The Screwfly Solution' by Raccoona Sheldon, aka James Tiptree, Jr., aka Alice Sheldon.

If you haven't read the story, Chessmistress, I think you might enjoy it. In case there's any doubt, I'm entirely sincere.

I'm checking the name of the author, never heard before, it seems an old sci-fi author.
Thank you for the suggestion, I'll read it.

In retrospect, I should have phrased my original post slightly better...

Instead of 'might enjoy', I should have written 'might find it stimulating and thought-provoking'; given the content, I'm not sure that 'The Screwfly Solution' is a story that many readers necessarily read and think 'well, that was fun'. My apologies for the lack of clarity.

And yes, Alice Sheldon was a science fiction writer best known for her work written under the pseudonym 'James Tiptree, Jr.', a name deliberately chosen to hide that the author was a woman. Most of her stories were written in the 1970s. She's generally considered the foremost practitioner of feminist science fiction of her era, with the stories 'The Women Men Don't See' and 'Houston, Houston, do you Read?' likely her most famous.

She also wrote a smaller body of more radically feminist science fiction under the name 'Raccoona Sheldon', of which 'The Screwfly Solution' is likely the best known example.

[Industrialaska]

Here is what I can say from experience: Judges (in the USA anyways) don't always understand the case. In fact, this is actually kind of common. If you argue an objection and it goes over the judge's head, he or she will just make a ruling based on whoever made a more convincing argument, regardless of who is right. Case in point: Opposing counsel tries to admit someone as an expert in Taser usage. AFTER the witness says "I have never used a Taser." I object to her being admitted as an expert, and the judge can't figure out why.

This is likely just a case of 1. We don't know the impression that was made on the judge.
2. We don't know the facts of the case
3. Prosecution could have been really bad, defense really good.

Sometimes your argument matters more than the fact, especially when the judge isn't paying attention.

[Bressen]

Here is what I can say from experience: Judges (in the USA anyways) don't always understand the case. In fact, this is actually kind of common. If you argue an objection and it goes over the judge's head, he or she will just make a ruling based on whoever made a more convincing argument, regardless of who is right. Case in point: Opposing counsel tries to admit someone as an expert in Taser usage. AFTER the witness says "I have never used a Taser." I object to her being admitted as an expert, and the judge can't figure out why.

This is likely just a case of 1. We don't know the impression that was made on the judge.
2. We don't know the facts of the case
3. Prosecution could have been really bad, defense really good.

Sometimes your argument matters more than the fact, especially when the judge isn't paying attention.

You claim to speak from experience and then go on to state this as ''actually kind of common''. Citation? Because, the implication of something being common is that it occurs in the majority of scenarios, as opposed to it being uncommon and occuring in the minority of scenarios.

Your example of the taser expert is either lacking in context or is flawed. What does it entail to be an expert in taser usage? Is the taser usage expert an expert in taser usage on the basis that they're experienced with using tasers, or do they just know a lot about how tasers operate and how they are used?

Though, I'll agree with your other points. We simply lack any contextual information to make any judgements about this story, since all the factoids we have are from news articles which omit vast swaths of data for a concise and interesting read.

[Chessmistress]

I don't think it'll be "perfect", hardly it can be, especially at the very first, but however you shouldn't worry, because even if there will be problems then, when and if, men wil begin to suffer then it'll be correct within few years: that's nothing compared to the centuries-long suffering of us.

That's why men shouldn't be afraid.
I'm absolutely sincere about it, many people already know that I'm not a liar.

See ... this here. Demanding another group be made to 'suffer because the group Ii identify with has'. This is wrong thinking. This is not justice, nor equality. This is special focus being put on a cause or point that you feel strongly about rather than laying out a fair and honest balance across the board for all human beings, regardless of gender or any other divisible category.

Me, don't want men or anyone else to suffer. Don't want more laws, just to make the existing ones more inclusive and fair, with fair sentencing, and without the bullshit of victim-blaming, and suppositioning, and excuse-making for perpetrators. What you're asking for is revenge, not justice. And that isn't fair or honest at all.

Please read again my post: I don't ask for "men suffering" nor "revenge"

even if there will be problems then, when and if, men wil begin to suffer then it'll be correct within few years

Laws against femicide are just a way to make more fair domestic violence laws: there's an unbalancement of power that should be recognized by the law.
Odds are that it'll happen everywhere in Europe in the next years, since we have Convention of Istanbul that defines in a correct way what is gender-based violence.

I'm checking the name of the author, never heard before, it seems an old sci-fi author.
Thank you for the suggestion, I'll read it.

In retrospect, I should have phrased my original post slightly better...

Instead of 'might enjoy', I should have written 'might find it stimulating and thought-provoking'; given the content, I'm not sure that 'The Screwfly Solution' is a story that many readers necessarily read and think 'well, that was fun'. My apologies for the lack of clarity.

And yes, Alice Sheldon was a science fiction writer best known for her work written under the pseudonym 'James Tiptree, Jr.', a name deliberately chosen to hide that the author was a woman. Most of her stories were written in the 1970s. She's generally considered the foremost practitioner of feminist science fiction of her era, with the stories 'The Women Men Don't See' and 'Houston, Houston, do you Read?' likely her most famous.

She also wrote a smaller body of more radically feminist science fiction under the name 'Raccoona Sheldon', of which 'The Screwfly Solution' is likely the best known example.

I generally prefer essays and books more grounded into reality to sci-fi and works of pure fantasy, but I'll check those novels, thank you.

[Des-Bal]

18 months for attempted murder? Was this guy a titled aristocrat or does the UK have absurdly short sentences for regular people as well?

1. He wasn't charged with attempted murder. Stop saying attempted murder. If he was charged with attempted murder he would almost definitely have won.
2. He was charged with assault and based on the sentencing guidelines this was a fairly severe penalty.

[Des-Bal]

You claim to speak from experience and then go on to state this as ''actually kind of common''. Citation? Because, the implication of something being common is that it occurs in the majority of scenarios, as opposed to it being uncommon and occuring in the minority of scenarios.

Your example of the taser expert is either lacking in context or is flawed. What does it entail to be an expert in taser usage? Is the taser usage expert an expert in taser usage on the basis that they're experienced with using tasers, or do they just know a lot about how tasers operate and how they are used?

Though, I'll agree with your other points. We simply lack any contextual information to make any judgements about this story, since all the factoids we have are from news articles which omit vast swaths of data for a concise and interesting read.

Getting facts has been difficult. Here's some stuff we know:

The guy was convicted of Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm
He was sentencecd to 18 months
Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm has an offense range of a fine to 3 years
Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm is divided into 3 categories with 1 being the most severe and 3 being the least
Category 1 and Category 2 both require serious injury.
As a matter of law, vulnerability of the victim is a factor in how serious the crime is.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

You claim to speak from experience and then go on to state this as ''actually kind of common''. Citation? Because, the implication of something being common is that it occurs in the majority of scenarios, as opposed to it being uncommon and occuring in the minority of scenarios.

Your example of the taser expert is either lacking in context or is flawed. What does it entail to be an expert in taser usage? Is the taser usage expert an expert in taser usage on the basis that they're experienced with using tasers, or do they just know a lot about how tasers operate and how they are used?

Though, I'll agree with your other points. We simply lack any contextual information to make any judgements about this story, since all the factoids we have are from news articles which omit vast swaths of data for a concise and interesting read.

Getting facts has been difficult. Here's some stuff we know:

The guy was convicted of Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm
He was sentencecd to 18 months
Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm has an offense range of a fine to 3 years
Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm is divided into 3 categories with 1 being the most severe and 3 being the least
Category 1 and Category 2 both require serious injury.
As a matter of law, vulnerability of the victim is a factor in how serious the crime is.

Point of order - where's your law degree? Not present, be gone with ye.

Seriously though. This had other circumstances that probably ought to have been taken into consideration. And if the current laws do not allow for such things, perhaps the current laws need to be altered so that they more adequately cover domestic violence and abuse situations.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Holy shit a cricket bat and pouring bleach down her throat, thats fucking attempted murder