NationStates

Cedoria wrote:

The Conez Imperium wrote:After reading about Pascal's wager, do atheist worry about eternal damnation, or the possibility of it occurring (according to the bible)?

Personally, fear of eternal damnation is not my reason for belief in the bible however how can people be so dismissive of infinite loss compared to finite gains? Even though you may not accept the bible, does it not worry you slightly?

To answer in word one. Nope.


Any God that would sentence me to eternal hellfire for not keeping true to my convictions is not worth believing in in the first instance. If he requires me to be hypocritical and pretend to believe things the evidence tells me to be false to get salvation, I would question the righteousness or morality of that being.

Assuming of course, you think there is any basis for his existence. I personally do not, but even if I did believe there is more than an extremely minute possibility of the Christian God existing as described, it still wouldn't worry me.

This is also true.
Wasn't God's whole ordeal that people would be praised for believing in him and doing as he proscribed?

So what does that mean for all the non-Christain non-atheists that never had any interaction with the Christianized west? Are they going to be punished for not doing something they literally had no way of knowing was even a thing? If so, why on earth would God create people and specifically place them in situations in which they could not have experienced Christianity, and then punished them for not experiencing Christianity while still claiming to be righteous and merciful?



I'm more afraid of extremist Christians deciding I deserve eternal damnation right now than I am of a Christian god deciding I need eternal damnation after I die.

No. Why would it? I've always found that argument people use against you being an Atheist. Stuff like "You're going to hell for it!". Yeah, I don't believe in your nonsense anyway (Not you specifically, OP, just referring to the people I have seen say these kinds of things like it means anything to Atheists), so this fear of damnation to hell doesn't mean anything to me. And even if I do happen to go to hell, I'd rather hell than heaven if your God's that petty to throw you into eternal damnation because you don't believe in him. He sounds like an asshole, anyway.

The Conez Imperium wrote:After reading about Pascal's wager, do atheist worry about eternal damnation, or the possibility of it occurring (according to the bible)?

Personally, fear of eternal damnation is not my reason for belief in the bible however how can people be so dismissive of infinite loss compared to finite gains? Even though you may not accept the bible, does it not worry you slightly?

Well, not personally: In order to feel that infinite loss is a thing that will exist, I would have to first have had the implications of hell on anyone who was an atheist be pushed onto me and that just has never happened in my family because only one person had been a Christian and they'd since renounced their religiosity and they just so happen to be one of my parents.

So no, I don't feel like I'm dismissive of infinite loss compared to finite gain because I'd never had that drilled into my head as a concept and for people who've fully expunged that concept from their minds as they were in the process of becoming atheists, I would imagine that that is a similar mentality that they hold.

I can't really say for certain about whether or not it is absolutely the case that there is a God or not, however, or what they would think of someone who doesn't believe in them: I guess I would hope that they don't see me as any less of a person, but there you go.

Regardless, it's also kind of a silly question anyways: Like, that's in the future, like beyond our plain of comprehension, death and the like, so the better mentality seems to be to do what I see as just and moral and right in my lifetime, as I'm currently in this mortal realm, as opposed to living my life being in some part fearful of a scenario I don't fully know even is the scenario ahead of me, given my religious position.

Dumb Ideologies wrote:I for one am more worried about mainstream religionists eternally damning Earth to ass-backwards social values.

This, pretty much.

Alvecia wrote:

Conscentia wrote:Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive.
This may help you understand.

Technically, agnosticism being about knowing whether or not God exists, and God, as a concept being utterly unknowable, everyone is agnostic.

Technically agnosticism is a position about whether knowledge exists and is possible, and there are different types of agnosticism. Like atheism, agnosticism may have strong and weak forms. A strong agnostic would say that it is impossible to know whether or not a God exists - "I cannot know whether a God exists or not, and neither can you". A weak agnostic would only say that they don't know but acknowledge that it may be possible to know - "I don't know whether a God exists or not, but it might be possible to find out". There's also apathetic agnosticism arising from the belief that no amount of debate will ever determine whether or not there is a God, leading to apathy with regards to the subject. Not everyone is an agnostic. Some people believe not only that knowledge is possible, but that they have it. Some theists believe they've experienced God's presence. Some atheists believe evidence and logical arguments can disprove the existence of God.

Are you worried about eternal damnation? Because the odds of winning the wager as proposed for a theist and atheist is about the same - after all in history of humanity people have worshiped many gods what is to say your god is more likely to be real than any of those other gods - not to mention it'd be rather inappropriate to restrict it to just gods humans have previously worshiped since all gods were once not worshiped so we need to include all possible types of supernatural entities. The number of potential entities that could be god is practically infinite, you're betting the one god you believe in is the right god - you're probability of not being damned for eternity would be 1/inf ≈ 0 whereas for an atheist that'd be 0/inf = 0.

This is assuming the wager as proposed is valid, it is not - the wager assumes a god will treat non believers equally as believers in false faith; to bring it into human scale: a king will treat someone who backs a pretender with same harshness that he treats someone that doesn't actively support his rule. This could be the case, but there is no reason to believe so - after all it'd be reasonable to be more angry if you credit someone else for creation of god than if you merely said I dont know but there isn't evidence to say the god did it - former is actively crediting someone else and refusing to credit god whereas latter is merely failure to credit god. So utility of non belief isn't 0, it's the value of potential leniency for committing one sin instead of two.

USS Monitor wrote:

The Conez Imperium wrote:After reading about Pascal's wager, do atheist worry about eternal damnation, or the possibility of it occurring (according to the bible)?

Personally, fear of eternal damnation is not my reason for belief in the bible however how can people be so dismissive of infinite loss compared to finite gains? Even though you may not accept the bible, does it not worry you slightly?

No.

If I was worried about it I wouldn't be an atheist. Do you worry about Sauron?

I don't worry about Sauron because he is simply fiction. The bible isn't, so the comparative isn't exactly working.

I understand that people are attacking the assumption of the Bible being real rather than addressing the question yet that still makes me disappointed.

I was indoctrinated as a child by my Baptist father. So when I looked past the brimstone and hellfire he preached about, it does always leave that question in the back of my mind. It's so bad to the point that if I take a shower and the water is too hot I will automatically be thinking "What if this was a thousand times hotter and I couldn't get out?" It's a real struggle.

USS Monitor wrote:

Cisairse wrote:
It doesn't worry me because it isn't true. The 'threat' of eternal damnation is no more a threat to me than the threat of Zeus zapping my balls off because I looked at the ocean wrong.

Hey, don't ogle my ocean! I'll have you know we're in a serious committed relationship!

And your a switch. First you were a top, and now a bottom.

The Conez Imperium wrote:

USS Monitor wrote:
No.

If I was worried about it I wouldn't be an atheist. Do you worry about Sauron?

I don't worry about Sauron because he is simply fiction. The bible isn't, so the comparative isn't exactly working.

I understand that people are attacking the assumption of the Bible being real rather than addressing the question yet that still makes me disappointed.

If you are convinced the Bible and the Biblical God are not real, you have very little reason to worry about said God eternally damning you.

The Conez Imperium wrote:After reading about Pascal's wager, do atheist worry about eternal damnation, or the possibility of it occurring (according to the bible)?

Personally, fear of eternal damnation is not my reason for belief in the bible however how can people be so dismissive of infinite loss compared to finite gains? Even though you may not accept the bible, does it not worry you slightly?

Why only atheists? Why not asks if Christians worry about eternal damnation if it turns out the Muslims are right? Or Muslims fear damnation if the Jews are right? Or Jews fear damnation if the Catholics are right? (I could go on, but I think you get the idea).

For me - no. Because either it's all bollocks, in which case when you die, you die and that's it. Or the god that supposedly exists is all loving and all forgiving, so no matter what shit you did in this life, she will forgive you and take you unto her love and you will live happily ever after in the afterlife anyway.

So - you know - win win, so to speak

Conscentia wrote:

Gim wrote:Mutually exclusive.

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive.

This may help you understand.

Huh. I cycle between Agnostic Theist and Agnostic Atheist then. Interesting to know.

Calladan wrote:

The Conez Imperium wrote:After reading about Pascal's wager, do atheist worry about eternal damnation, or the possibility of it occurring (according to the bible)?

Personally, fear of eternal damnation is not my reason for belief in the bible however how can people be so dismissive of infinite loss compared to finite gains? Even though you may not accept the bible, does it not worry you slightly?

Why only atheists? Why not asks if Christians worry about eternal damnation if it turns out the Muslims are right? Or Muslims fear damnation if the Jews are right? Or Jews fear damnation if the Catholics are right? (I could go on, but I think you get the idea).

For me - no. Because either it's all bollocks, in which case when you die, you die and that's it. Or the god that supposedly exists is all loving and all forgiving, so no matter what shit you did in this life, she will forgive you and take you unto her love and you will live happily ever after in the afterlife anyway.

So - you know - win win, so to speak

And what if you're a huge sinner? Say a murderer and rapist? I doubt any god would forgive such acts.

Doom Legions wrote:

Calladan wrote:
Why only atheists? Why not asks if Christians worry about eternal damnation if it turns out the Muslims are right? Or Muslims fear damnation if the Jews are right? Or Jews fear damnation if the Catholics are right? (I could go on, but I think you get the idea).

For me - no. Because either it's all bollocks, in which case when you die, you die and that's it. Or the god that supposedly exists is all loving and all forgiving, so no matter what shit you did in this life, she will forgive you and take you unto her love and you will live happily ever after in the afterlife anyway.

So - you know - win win, so to speak

And what if you're a huge sinner? Say a murderer and rapist? I doubt any god would forgive such acts.

Donate enough money to the church and say a few prayers and anything can be forgiven.

Be a bastard all your life, leave something in the will for insurance, receive rites just before death. Optimum Christianizing.

Calladan wrote:

The Conez Imperium wrote:After reading about Pascal's wager, do atheist worry about eternal damnation, or the possibility of it occurring (according to the bible)?

Personally, fear of eternal damnation is not my reason for belief in the bible however how can people be so dismissive of infinite loss compared to finite gains? Even though you may not accept the bible, does it not worry you slightly?

Why only atheists? Why not asks if Christians worry about eternal damnation if it turns out the Muslims are right? Or Muslims fear damnation if the Jews are right? Or Jews fear damnation if the Catholics are right? (I could go on, but I think you get the idea).

For me - no. Because either it's all bollocks, in which case when you die, you die and that's it. Or the god that supposedly exists is all loving and all forgiving, so no matter what shit you did in this life, she will forgive you and take you unto her love and you will live happily ever after in the afterlife anyway.

So - you know - win win, so to speak

Why does God have to be a loving and forgiving god. Why can't god be just and angry?

Doom Legions wrote:

Calladan wrote:
Why only atheists? Why not asks if Christians worry about eternal damnation if it turns out the Muslims are right? Or Muslims fear damnation if the Jews are right? Or Jews fear damnation if the Catholics are right? (I could go on, but I think you get the idea).

For me - no. Because either it's all bollocks, in which case when you die, you die and that's it. Or the god that supposedly exists is all loving and all forgiving, so no matter what shit you did in this life, she will forgive you and take you unto her love and you will live happily ever after in the afterlife anyway.

So - you know - win win, so to speak

And what if you're a huge sinner? Say a murderer and rapist? I doubt any god would forgive such acts.

Read an interesting book once (Okay, I lie, it was pretty boring but it had one interesting concept) that heaven and hell were exactly the same place. The only thing that happened was that on entering, you became utterly aware of the consequences of all your actions, good and bad without any of the nice little justifications everyone invents for doing selfish/wrong things. For those who had lead relatively good lives it was heaven. For those who had not it was torment.

The Conez Imperium wrote:After reading about Pascal's wager, do atheist worry about eternal damnation, or the possibility of it occurring (according to the bible)?

Personally, fear of eternal damnation is not my reason for belief in the bible however how can people be so dismissive of infinite loss compared to finite gains? Even though you may not accept the bible, does it not worry you slightly?

You can find the right answer(s) by asking the right question(s) : What if an atheist do good and a more religious person do bad ? Who should really care about eternal damnation in such a case ?

Dumb Ideologies wrote:

Doom Legions wrote:And what if you're a huge sinner? Say a murderer and rapist? I doubt any god would forgive such acts.

Donate enough money to the church and say a few prayers and anything can be forgiven.

Be a bastard all your life, leave something in the will for insurance, receive rites just before death. Optimum Christianizing.

Except the church isn't God, they're just a bunch of dudes that claim to speak for their god. In the end it's not the church that judges you but god.
True the church has been pretty damn corrupt, but the forgiveness of a priest means nothing. In the end it's god that has to forgive you, no?

Caracasus wrote:

Doom Legions wrote:And what if you're a huge sinner? Say a murderer and rapist? I doubt any god would forgive such acts.

Read an interesting book once (Okay, I lie, it was pretty boring but it had one interesting concept) that heaven and hell were exactly the same place. The only thing that happened was that on entering, you became utterly aware of the consequences of all your actions, good and bad without any of the nice little justifications everyone invents for doing selfish/wrong things. For those who had lead relatively good lives it was heaven. For those who had not it was torment.

An odd contrivance, but one I will accept due to sociopath privilege. Aware isn't care!

Calladan wrote:Why only atheists? Why not asks if Christians worry about eternal damnation if it turns out the Muslims are right? Or Muslims fear damnation if the Jews are right? Or Jews fear damnation if the Catholics are right? (I could go on, but I think you get the idea).

For me - no. Because either it's all bollocks, in which case when you die, you die and that's it. Or the god that supposedly exists is all loving and all forgiving, so no matter what shit you did in this life, she will forgive you and take you unto her love and you will live happily ever after in the afterlife anyway.

So - you know - win win, so to speak

Sorry God does exist - but God is evil, and hates humanity. God won't forgive you. Life is cruel and unfair on purpose. God invented the myth of heaven to give false hope, because God is cruel. God will torture us all in the after-life. Life is a brief mercy. Every act of compassion is an act of rebellion against God.

This is a joke.

Moubarakistan wrote:

The Conez Imperium wrote:After reading about Pascal's wager, do atheist worry about eternal damnation, or the possibility of it occurring (according to the bible)?

Personally, fear of eternal damnation is not my reason for belief in the bible however how can people be so dismissive of infinite loss compared to finite gains? Even though you may not accept the bible, does it not worry you slightly?

You can find the right answer(s) by asking the right question(s) : What if an atheist do good and a more religious person do bad ? Who should really care about eternal damnation in such a case ?

Why would an atheist worry about something he doesn't beleive in, in the first place?

Caracasus wrote:

Doom Legions wrote:And what if you're a huge sinner? Say a murderer and rapist? I doubt any god would forgive such acts.

Read an interesting book once (Okay, I lie, it was pretty boring but it had one interesting concept) that heaven and hell were exactly the same place. The only thing that happened was that on entering, you became utterly aware of the consequences of all your actions, good and bad without any of the nice little justifications everyone invents for doing selfish/wrong things. For those who had lead relatively good lives it was heaven. For those who had not it was torment.

Interesting idea, though I don't see what the point is of becoming aware of the consequences of your actions. If you're far enough gone, I doubt you could give a rat's ass about the consequences..

Doom Legions wrote:

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Donate enough money to the church and say a few prayers and anything can be forgiven.

Be a bastard all your life, leave something in the will for insurance, receive rites just before death. Optimum Christianizing.

Except the church isn't God, they're just a bunch of dudes that claim to speak for their god. In the end it's not the church that judges you but god.
True the church has been pretty damn corrupt, but the forgiveness of a priest means nothing. In the end it's god that has to forgive you, no?

If he's not spoken to you directly it would be pretty unreasonable for God to judge you on anything other than your relation to His representatives on Earth. Then again, the Bible is full of God being a jealous, vindictive manchild, so all bets are off.

The Conez Imperium wrote:After reading about Pascal's wager, do atheist worry about eternal damnation, or the possibility of it occurring (according to the bible)?

Personally, fear of eternal damnation is not my reason for belief in the bible however how can people be so dismissive of infinite loss compared to finite gains? Even though you may not accept the bible, does it not worry you slightly?

No. They wouldn't be an atheist otherwise.

I'm pretty sure that asking for forgiveness/repenting of sins requires an actual desire to repent and feeling genuinely sorry for all the bad shit you did.