Do atheist worry about eternal damnation?

[Genivaria]

No no. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

An all powerful creator god, if one exists, is the author of cancer. It exists because he wants it to. He didn't have to include it in his creation. He chose to.

You have a lot of experience creating universes and you know what the various options are, I take it?

That is the excuse of someone who is NOT all powerful.
An all-powerful being doesn't need excuses, if it desires reality to be a certain way then it is that way, no ifs or buts.

[Neanderthaland]

No no. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

An all powerful creator god, if one exists, is the author of cancer. It exists because he wants it to. He didn't have to include it in his creation. He chose to.

You have a lot of experience creating universes and you know what the various options are, I take it?

Is he omnipotent or not?

[Genivaria]

By the logic that God is responsible for every single thing in existence, this, also, of course, means He is responsible for all the pleasure that has ever happened in the entire world.

Yup.

A bit bipolar, isn't he?

Yet you never see theists being consistent and blaming god for all the negative do they?

[United Muscovite Nations]

By the logic that God is responsible for every single thing in existence, this, also, of course, means He is responsible for all the pleasure that has ever happened in the entire world.

Yep, and all the pain.
That's what happens when you have the final say on literally EVERYTHING, you also get final blame.

Again, as Const said, simply allowing things to happen, when those things happened primarily because of human activity, then that's not being evil.

[Genivaria]

Yep, and all the pain.
That's what happens when you have the final say on literally EVERYTHING, you also get final blame.

Again, as Const said, simply allowing things to happen, when those things happened primarily because of human activity, then that's not being evil.

"Allowing things to happen."
Everything that happens is his will, by definition. Or else he is not all-powerful.
And since the last example of suffering given was AIDS and Cancer 'human activity' is entirely irrelevant.

[Neanderthaland]

Also, humans in general, as a species, actively torture and murder thousands of their fellow humans every day. And not by inaction, not by failing to save them, but actively - with guns and knives and bombs and sometimes their bare hands.

Sure, but humans in particular usually don't.

Whereas God in particular always does.

[Constantinopolis]

"God is all powerful and there is nothing that is not part of his plan."

In fact, Christianity pretty much affirms that everything that happened since Adam and Eve fell into sin has been - at least to some extent - contrary to God's wishes.

He allowed it to happen, in the sense that He didn't choose to just wipe out this universe and start over, but none of this is what He really wanted.

[Genivaria]

"God is all powerful and there is nothing that is not part of his plan."

In fact, Christianity pretty much affirms that everything that happened since Adam and Eve fell into sin has been - at least to some extent - contrary to God's wishes.

He allowed it to happen, in the sense that He didn't choose to just wipe out this universe and start over, but none of this is what He really wanted.

What a weak and impotent god you believe in then.
You just reduced your god to merely somewhat powerful like the polytheist gods.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Again, as Const said, simply allowing things to happen, when those things happened primarily because of human activity, then that's not being evil.

"Allowing things to happen."
Everything that happens is his will, by definition.
And since the last example of suffering given was AIDS and Cancer 'human activity' is entirely irrelevant.

No, it isn't, especially not theologically, since the consensus among Christian theologians is that humans are responsible for the fallen state of the world, when we introduced sin to it, and, then, much later, God actually was incarnate to reverse this.

[Neanderthaland]

"God is all powerful and there is nothing that is not part of his plan."

In fact, Christianity pretty much affirms that everything that happened since Adam and Eve fell into sin has been - at least to some extent - contrary to God's wishes.

He allowed it to happen, in the sense that He didn't choose to just wipe out this universe and start over, but none of this is what He really wanted.

If something isn't what you really want, and you're all powerful, then it is what you really want, because if it wasn't you could easily change it.

[United Muscovite Nations]

In fact, Christianity pretty much affirms that everything that happened since Adam and Eve fell into sin has been - at least to some extent - contrary to God's wishes.

He allowed it to happen, in the sense that He didn't choose to just wipe out this universe and start over, but none of this is what He really wanted.

What a weak and impotent god you believe in then.
You just reduced your god to merely somewhat powerful like the polytheist gods.

Again, why should He stop us from inflicting harm upon ourselves?

[Genivaria]

"Allowing things to happen."
Everything that happens is his will, by definition.
And since the last example of suffering given was AIDS and Cancer 'human activity' is entirely irrelevant.

No, it isn't, especially not theologically, since the consensus among Christian theologians is that humans are responsible for the fallen state of the world, when we introduced sin to it, and, then, much later, God actually was incarnate to reverse this.

'Consensus among theologians'
Why would I care about their opinions?
Please don't change the subject.

[Genivaria]

What a weak and impotent god you believe in then.
You just reduced your god to merely somewhat powerful like the polytheist gods.

Again, why should He stop us from inflicting harm upon ourselves?

So the AIDS virus and Cancer are us inflicting harm upon ourselves?

[United Muscovite Nations]

In fact, Christianity pretty much affirms that everything that happened since Adam and Eve fell into sin has been - at least to some extent - contrary to God's wishes.

He allowed it to happen, in the sense that He didn't choose to just wipe out this universe and start over, but none of this is what He really wanted.

If something isn't what you really want, and you're all powerful, then it is what you really want, because if it wasn't you could easily change it.

Why would you change it if it goes against your ethics? God clearly doesn't think that we should be completely stopped from inflicting harm upon ourselves. We have that freedom.

[Constantinopolis]

You have a lot of experience creating universes and you know what the various options are, I take it?

That is the excuse of someone who is NOT all powerful.
An all-powerful being doesn't need excuses, if it desires reality to be a certain way then it is that way, no ifs or buts.

God cannot create a square circle. An all-powerful being does not necessarily have infinite options.

And in any case, all natural evil is a result of the Fall. This is basic Christian doctrine. Cancer exists because this world is fallen and corrupted by sin. It will cease to exist after the Second Coming.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Again, why should He stop us from inflicting harm upon ourselves?

So the AIDS virus and Cancer are us inflicting harm upon ourselves?

Again, in Christian theology, even death was inflicted by humans.

[Neanderthaland]

If something isn't what you really want, and you're all powerful, then it is what you really want, because if it wasn't you could easily change it.

Why would you change it if it goes against your ethics? God clearly doesn't think that we should be completely stopped from inflicting harm upon ourselves. We have that freedom.

I haven't mentioned harm we inflict upon each other. I want him to stop inflicting the harm he inflicts upon us.

[Genivaria]

That is the excuse of someone who is NOT all powerful.
An all-powerful being doesn't need excuses, if it desires reality to be a certain way then it is that way, no ifs or buts.

God cannot create a square circle. An all-powerful being does not necessarily have infinite options.

And in any case, all natural evil is a result of the Fall. This is basic Christian doctrine. Cancer exists because this world is fallen and corrupted by sin. It will cease to exist after the Second Coming.

Yes I understand that Christian doctrine is inherently contradictory.
That doesn't change that you apparently believe in a merely somewhat powerful god.

[Drakonisch]

I worry about it.

Im an agnostic who iirc insulted religion in the past, but now I AM religious.

I still worry about it.

a bit.

[United Muscovite Nations]

God cannot create a square circle. An all-powerful being does not necessarily have infinite options.

And in any case, all natural evil is a result of the Fall. This is basic Christian doctrine. Cancer exists because this world is fallen and corrupted by sin. It will cease to exist after the Second Coming.

Yes I understand that Christian doctrine is inherently contradictory.
That doesn't change that you apparently believe in a merely somewhat powerful god.

>inherently contradictory
I.e. You don't like it.

Christian doctrine has had thousands of years to be refined, and no one has seen it as a problem until recently, so I'm inclined to say those who think it's a problem are wrong and don't know enough about the doctrine.

[Neanderthaland]

Yes I understand that Christian doctrine is inherently contradictory.
That doesn't change that you apparently believe in a merely somewhat powerful god.

>inherently contradictory
I.e. You don't like it.

Christian doctrine has had thousands of years to be refined, and no one has seen it as a problem until recently, so I'm inclined to say those who think it's a problem are wrong and don't know enough about the doctrine.

"Nobody"

You know there's a thousands of year-old quote erroneously attributed to Epicurus on this point, right?

[Anywhere Else But Here]

"Allowing things to happen."
Everything that happens is his will, by definition.
And since the last example of suffering given was AIDS and Cancer 'human activity' is entirely irrelevant.

No, it isn't, especially not theologically, since the consensus among Christian theologians is that humans are responsible for the fallen state of the world, when we introduced sin to it, and, then, much later, God actually was incarnate to reverse this.

Which humans? The very first Homo sapiens? Or are we punished for the "sins" of Homo erectus? Was the world perfect in the days of Australopithecus?

[Constantinopolis]

You have a lot of experience creating universes and you know what the various options are, I take it?

Is he omnipotent or not?

Not according to your definition of "omnipotent", clearly.

Now explain to me why I should care that someone has constructed a definition of "omnipotence" according to which God is not omnipotent. God is all-powerful in some sense of the world, but perhaps not in other senses of the word. So what?

Everything that happens is his will, by definition. Or else he is not all-powerful.

Then He is not all-powerful by your definition. Problem solved. Now, why should I care about your definition?

In fact, Christianity pretty much affirms that everything that happened since Adam and Eve fell into sin has been - at least to some extent - contrary to God's wishes.

He allowed it to happen, in the sense that He didn't choose to just wipe out this universe and start over, but none of this is what He really wanted.

What a weak and impotent god you believe in then.
You just reduced your god to merely somewhat powerful like the polytheist gods.

Again, why should I care what you think?

In fact, Christianity pretty much affirms that everything that happened since Adam and Eve fell into sin has been - at least to some extent - contrary to God's wishes.

He allowed it to happen, in the sense that He didn't choose to just wipe out this universe and start over, but none of this is what He really wanted.

If something isn't what you really want, and you're all powerful, then it is what you really want, because if it wasn't you could easily change it.

No.

All-powerful or not, there are trade-offs you must face. When you change something, that has consequences. An all-powerful being can still find itself in a situation where it must choose between several options that ALL have downsides and negative aspects.

God can't create a square circle. And a universe in which humans exist and have free will and yet nothing bad ever happens is like a square circle.

[Genivaria]

Yes I understand that Christian doctrine is inherently contradictory.
That doesn't change that you apparently believe in a merely somewhat powerful god.

>inherently contradictory
I.e. You don't like it.

Christian doctrine has had thousands of years to be refined, and no one has seen it as a problem until recently, so I'm inclined to say those who think it's a problem are wrong and don't know enough about the doctrine.

Because it is inherently contradictory yes.

Christian doctrine has had thousands of years to be refined

To diverge into thousands of contradicting denominations you mean.

and no one has seen it as a problem until recently

Oh the things you don't know about history, not that that is a valid argument even if it WERE true.

so I'm inclined to say those who think it's a problem are wrong

Because you say so right?

don't know enough about the doctrine

I find it often a sign of a closed mind that they think that anyone who disagrees with them simply hasn't heard 'The TruthTM' or must be evil.

[Genivaria]

Is he omnipotent or not?

Not according to your definition of "omnipotent", clearly.

Now explain to me why I should care that someone has constructed a definition of "omnipotence" according to which God is not omnipotent. God is all-powerful in some sense of the world, but perhaps not in other senses of the word. So what?

Everything that happens is his will, by definition. Or else he is not all-powerful.

Then He is not all-powerful by your definition. Problem solved. Now, why should I care about your definition?

What a weak and impotent god you believe in then.
You just reduced your god to merely somewhat powerful like the polytheist gods.

Again, why should I care what you think?

If something isn't what you really want, and you're all powerful, then it is what you really want, because if it wasn't you could easily change it.

No.

All-powerful or not, there are trade-offs you must face. When you change something, that has consequences. An all-powerful being can still find itself in a situation where it must choose between several options that ALL have downsides and negative aspects.

God can't create a square circle. And a universe in which humans exist and have free will and yet nothing bad ever happens is like a square circle.

If your only defense is "I don't care what you think." then why are you even on this forum?