Possible "Terrorist Incident" in Westminster, 4 killed

[Fartsniffage]

My uncle was sued in New York for breaking a guys ribs while performing the Heimlich on a guy in a restaurant. Judge thought it was hilarious.

Please tell me your uncle won.

Pretty emphatically from what he said.

[The Klishi Islands]

Gotta love a PDF with a name containing the word "Mulims."

I'd like to see the question wording, because it may fall under those points I discussed earlier regarding these surveys.

Seems more like polling document created for channel 4 and then distributed based on whatever name it was (like an appendix) since it just has question/percentage answers. The question for Sharia law was: "to what extent, if at all, would you support or oppose there being areas of Britain in which Sharia law is introduced instead of British law?" with four options - just for those in UK though so while first issue might apply I'm not really sure on the second one.

At any rate, I fail to see that as a worrying sign. Not only is the % far, far lower than in the countries they presumably came from, but the UK has strong protections regarding the separation of church and state (right?). I'd be willing to bet there are more people in the UK who wish to see the Anglican Church take over the government than wish for sharia law.

[San Lumen]

Truly terrible what occurred. What happened in London represents only a very small minority of Muslims. Islam does not condone this kind of violence and the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and would never do something like this. The attacker was British citizen and lone wolf terrorists are very hard to protect against.

[Great Nepal]

Seems more like polling document created for channel 4 and then distributed based on whatever name it was (like an appendix) since it just has question/percentage answers. The question for Sharia law was: "to what extent, if at all, would you support or oppose there being areas of Britain in which Sharia law is introduced instead of British law?" with four options - just for those in UK though so while first issue might apply I'm not really sure on the second one.

At any rate, I fail to see that as a worrying sign. Not only is the % far, far lower than in the countries they presumably came from, but the UK has strong protections regarding the separation of church and state (right?). I'd be willing to bet there are more people in the UK who wish to see the Anglican Church take over the government than wish for sharia law.

Yes that was largely my point too - 23% is a small percentage especially given the fact that half want to fully integrate therefore making the entire panic about evul Muslims turning country to sharia entirely irrational and paranoid.
Although unfortunately withbrexit we dont really have that protection (also we never really did whole separation of church and state with CoE and all).

[The Klishi Islands]

At any rate, I fail to see that as a worrying sign. Not only is the % far, far lower than in the countries they presumably came from, but the UK has strong protections regarding the separation of church and state (right?). I'd be willing to bet there are more people in the UK who wish to see the Anglican Church take over the government than wish for sharia law.

Yes that was largely my point too - 23% is a small percentage especially given the fact that half want to fully integrate therefore making the entire panic about evul Muslims turning country to sharia entirely irrational and paranoid.
Although unfortunately withbrexit we dont really have that protection (also we never really did whole separation of church and state with CoE and all).

Huh. I have yet to study the UK in AP Comparative yet, but I look forward to it. Hopefully we'll cover that aspect.

[Ifreann]

I can't help noticing you've kind of missed the point. Was the reaction to any of these attacks to demand the expulsion of all Irish citizens from the UK?

The vast majority of Irish citizens weren't fundamentally at odds with British culture. I'm pretty sure 99% of them didn't support the IRA, unlike the 99% of Afghanistan that supports Sharia.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... the-world/

You seem to be comparing apples and oranges there. I'm sure you'll correct your error post haste.

[Salandriagado]

Really? So how long do your ancestors have to be in the UK before you count? Am I not English because some of my ancestors arrived in the country (very illegally) and immediately started a fight 951 years ago? Justify your choice of date.

I think you messed up the quotes here. I didn't say that; that was a reply to me. I think he's as English as can be.

Urgh, yeah, sorry, there was a messed up quote tag in there that I tried to fix and fixed the wrong way.

I don't recall there being historical populations of muslims in the U.K. before the 20th century. Certainly, controls on immigration origin would have prevented his parents, grandparents or whomever from immigrating in the first place.




That may be so, but he was not English.

He was English, given that he was born in the UK.

And you're honestly suggesting that we should ban either Middle Easterners, South Asians, or Muslims because of what their grandchildren might do? That's absurd.

Being born in the UK doesn't make you English. Being born in England makes you English.

Is occasionally blowing some people up kinda scary? Yeah. But it's a hell of a lot different from "OH MY GOD THEY'VE TAKEN OVER THE CONTINENT IT'S SHARIA LAW!!!!11", which is what Ethel was squealing about.

Paris, Brussels and some other incidents in Western Europe seem to indicate that theres a bit of a problem with your security.

im fucking amazed that a bombing in Warsaw or Bosnia hasnt happened yet.

Notice how those incidents pale into insignificance compared to "normal" violence levels in, say, the US?

Notice how that's relating to support for ISIS, not support for Sharia.

You get similar numbers of various Christian groups in the US wanting their particular religious law to be the law of the land.

Almost nobody can effectively apply a tourniquet, and judge when doing so is appropriate.

Gushing wound on the limb? Tourniquet.

And when do you then loosen or remove that tourniquet? Because if you fuck that up and do it slightly too early, they die. If you fuck it up and do it slightly too late, you permanently disable them. Frankly, most people would be better of just never using them at all, in terms of outcomes. The lack of understanding of this issue among the US military is part of the reason why there are perennially quite so many US military veterans missing limbs.

I mean, you're one person out of 7 billion and you went to boot camp. That doesn't really disprove what he's saying.

It's not brain surgery. First aid is pretty basic shit.

Care to answer any of the other points then, rather than just hiding and pretending they don't exist?

Nobody has ever been successfully sued for attempting to provide first aid.

My uncle was sued in New York for breaking a guys ribs while performing the Heimlich on a guy in a restaurant. Judge thought it was hilarious.

Yeah, those things always get thrown out pretty fast. You do have to fuck up the Heimlich manoeuvre pretty damned hard to break a rib, though: it's usually internal organ damage that's the issue there.

[Imperializt Russia]

Notice how that's relating to support for ISIS, not support for Sharia.

"Sharia" is the general term for laws laid down in the Quran.

It does not solely cover adultery and the icky gays, it covers all aspects of life.
It'd be like going to a really evangelical county in Texas and asking people if they support biblical law.

[UCE Watchdog of the Puppets]

I think you messed up the quotes here. I didn't say that; that was a reply to me. I think he's as English as can be.

Urgh, yeah, sorry, there was a messed up quote tag in there that I tried to fix and fixed the wrong way.

He was English, given that he was born in the UK.

And you're honestly suggesting that we should ban either Middle Easterners, South Asians, or Muslims because of what their grandchildren might do? That's absurd.

Being born in the UK doesn't make you English. Being born in England makes you English.

Paris, Brussels and some other incidents in Western Europe seem to indicate that theres a bit of a problem with your security.

im fucking amazed that a bombing in Warsaw or Bosnia hasnt happened yet.

Notice how those incidents pale into insignificance compared to "normal" violence levels in, say, the US?

Notice how that's relating to support for ISIS, not support for Sharia.

You get similar numbers of various Christian groups in the US wanting their particular religious law to be the law of the land.

Gushing wound on the limb? Tourniquet.

And when do you then loosen or remove that tourniquet? Because if you fuck that up and do it slightly too early, they die. If you fuck it up and do it slightly too late, you permanently disable them. Frankly, most people would be better of just never using them at all, in terms of outcomes. The lack of understanding of this issue among the US military is part of the reason why there are perennially quite so many US military veterans missing limbs.

It's not brain surgery. First aid is pretty basic shit.

Care to answer any of the other points then, rather than just hiding and pretending they don't exist?

My uncle was sued in New York for breaking a guys ribs while performing the Heimlich on a guy in a restaurant. Judge thought it was hilarious.

Yeah, those things always get thrown out pretty fast. You do have to fuck up the Heimlich manoeuvre pretty damned hard to break a rib, though: it's usually internal organ damage that's the issue there.

You're telling me that in boot camp they don't teach them how to tourniquet well enough?

[Salandriagado]

Because apparently understanding that you will likely do more harm than good is a bad thing?

TIL a trained populace like Pret mentioned wouldn't know what to do

If you do know what to do, it's generally good to step up. Thankfully we didn't pick up that bad habit from you lot.

With the level of training he suggested: no, they fucking wouldn't. After about three months, you've forgotten essentially everything that was in your last first aid course.

Seems more like polling document created for channel 4 and then distributed based on whatever name it was (like an appendix) since it just has question/percentage answers. The question for Sharia law was: "to what extent, if at all, would you support or oppose there being areas of Britain in which Sharia law is introduced instead of British law?" with four options - just for those in UK though so while first issue might apply I'm not really sure on the second one.

At any rate, I fail to see that as a worrying sign. Not only is the % far, far lower than in the countries they presumably came from, but the UK has strong protections regarding the separation of church and state (right?). I'd be willing to bet there are more people in the UK who wish to see the Anglican Church take over the government than wish for sharia law.

(Emphasis mine): actually, no. We have an established church. Technically, the Church of England (which is a member of, but not the same thing as, the Anglican Communion) already has taken over the government.

[Imperializt Russia]

I can't help noticing you've kind of missed the point. Was the reaction to any of these attacks to demand the expulsion of all Irish citizens from the UK?

The vast majority of Irish citizens weren't fundamentally at odds with British culture. I'm pretty sure 99% of them didn't support the IRA, unlike the 99% of Afghanistan that supports Sharia.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... the-world/

Afghanistan, due to a bunch of factors, is the stereotypical image of 3rd world hellhole.
It used to be a very different place, before the superpowers tried to make it their military playground. Remember that in the Afghan War, the US were backing Mujahids against the Soviets, whose chief opposition to the Soviets was them introducing modern living that threatened their agrarian, traditional lifestyle.

In fact this whole "conservative Islam" thing seems to be very recent, just beyond the lifetime of most people on this forum, and ever so slightly within that of the older members (40 years ago or so). Iran, Afghanistan and other countries we now regard as very conservative, very oppressive were pretty liberal, as we would consider it today. Certainly no tyrannical laws about the covering up of women in public were in force in those countries then.

[Vassenor]

My uncle was sued in New York for breaking a guys ribs while performing the Heimlich on a guy in a restaurant. Judge thought it was hilarious.

Yeah, those things always get thrown out pretty fast. You do have to fuck up the Heimlich manoeuvre pretty damned hard to break a rib, though: it's usually internal organ damage that's the issue there.

Thought rib breaks were a CPR thing.

[Salandriagado]

Urgh, yeah, sorry, there was a messed up quote tag in there that I tried to fix and fixed the wrong way.




Being born in the UK doesn't make you English. Being born in England makes you English.



Notice how those incidents pale into insignificance compared to "normal" violence levels in, say, the US?



You get similar numbers of various Christian groups in the US wanting their particular religious law to be the law of the land.



And when do you then loosen or remove that tourniquet? Because if you fuck that up and do it slightly too early, they die. If you fuck it up and do it slightly too late, you permanently disable them. Frankly, most people would be better of just never using them at all, in terms of outcomes. The lack of understanding of this issue among the US military is part of the reason why there are perennially quite so many US military veterans missing limbs.




Care to answer any of the other points then, rather than just hiding and pretending they don't exist?



Yeah, those things always get thrown out pretty fast. You do have to fuck up the Heimlich manoeuvre pretty damned hard to break a rib, though: it's usually internal organ damage that's the issue there.

You're telling me that in boot camp they don't teach them how to tourniquet well enough?

It's not about doing it well or badly (frankly, literally anybody with enough strength can apply a tourniquet perfectly: you just tie a tight thing around above the wound): it's about when it is appropriate to use it, and when it isn't, and what you have to do afterwards. It usually isn't appropriate, and even if it is, you need to monitor extremely carefully and be ready to remove or loosen it at any time, looking for some pretty subtle signs, and play a very dangerous balancing act with regards to going too far one way or the other. Hospitals don't like using tourniquets, precisely because of how difficult it is to not fuck up.

[Salandriagado]

Yeah, those things always get thrown out pretty fast. You do have to fuck up the Heimlich manoeuvre pretty damned hard to break a rib, though: it's usually internal organ damage that's the issue there.

Thought rib breaks were a CPR thing.

They are. You can usually avoid them, if you do it right, but frankly, if it gets to the point where you need to do CPR, they're already fucking dead, and it doesn't really matter if you break some ribs. (Also: kids would be the worst group to get to do CPR, since most of them lack the physical strength to do it right).

[Imperializt Russia]

Even the Citizen Aid app explains that you must take great care in the application of tourniquets, and try and make written notes you can pass to medical professionals about exactly what time you applied the thing.
I do wonder if it also should have featured the advice "don't".

[UCE Watchdog of the Puppets]

You're telling me that in boot camp they don't teach them how to tourniquet well enough?

It's not about doing it well or badly (frankly, literally anybody with enough strength can apply a tourniquet perfectly: you just tie a tight thing around above the wound): it's about when it is appropriate to use it, and when it isn't, and what you have to do afterwards. It usually isn't appropriate, and even if it is, you need to monitor extremely carefully and be ready to remove or loosen it at any time, looking for some pretty subtle signs, and play a very dangerous balancing act with regards to going too far one way or the other. Hospitals don't like using tourniquets, precisely because of how difficult it is to not fuck up.

Whoa. I understand, that sounds harder than winning as the Western Roman Empire on the hardest difficulty of any strategy game.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

And when do you then loosen or remove that tourniquet? Because if you fuck that up and do it slightly too early, they die.

Then don't fucking remove the tourniquet.

If you fuck it up and do it slightly too late, you permanently disable them.

Better than dying. Besides, a tourniquet can stay on for two hours; if emergency services don't come by then, then something's terribly wrong.

And if a tourniquet isn't always appropriate, then that would be included in the lesson.

[Fartsniffage]

Thought rib breaks were a CPR thing.

They are. You can usually avoid them, if you do it right, but frankly, if it gets to the point where you need to do CPR, they're already fucking dead, and it doesn't really matter if you break some ribs. (Also: kids would be the worst group to get to do CPR, since most of them lack the physical strength to do it right).

Eh. I'm not sure that's really true. Especially when you take into account the ages of people most likely to require CPR. My brother claims to love DNRs for older people because he hates the feeling of old lady ribs breaking under his hands.

[Vassenor]

Pretty much all the wound management I've seen in first aid training was direct pressure, elevation and dressing.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Pretty much all the wound management I've seen in first aid training was direct pressure, elevation and dressing.

In the Army we get to practice bondage by putting tourniquets on each other.

The rest is useful, especially in places where the tourniquet can't go. Tourniquets are only for the limbs and neck.

[Fartsniffage]

Pretty much all the wound management I've seen in first aid training was direct pressure, elevation and dressing.

Depends on who's doing the training. Army taught tourniquets because they expect major wounds, they also tell you to give morphine and how to use atropine injectors. Also those round sticky pads used to treat sucking chest wounds.

My first at at work courses with St. Johns ambulance were a little different.

[Fartsniffage]

Pretty much all the wound management I've seen in first aid training was direct pressure, elevation and dressing.

In the Army we get to practice bondage by putting tourniquets on each other.

The rest is useful, especially in places where the tourniquet can't go. Tourniquets are only for the limbs and neck.

The fuck?

[Great Nepal]

...or, we could invest in emergency response so they can expand their rapid response team and reduce response time for emergencies if incident like this happens in more remote location, instead of having bunch of people who have half forgotten their lesson trying to administer first aid and messing up.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

In the Army we get to practice bondage by putting tourniquets on each other.

The rest is useful, especially in places where the tourniquet can't go. Tourniquets are only for the limbs and neck.

The fuck?

The line between first aid training and BDSM sessions sort of blur in our unit.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

...or, we could invest in emergency response so they can expand their rapid response team and reduce response time for emergencies if incident like this happens in more remote location

Why not both?

instead of having bunch of people who have half forgotten their lesson trying to administer first aid and messing up.

Okay, make it a daily class then.