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Invasion of North Korea

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:52 am
by The Realm of Lordaeron
Lately we've been hearing talks from Secretary of State Tillerson about possible options regarding Kim Jong-Un's North Korean regime.

He says that 'all options are on the table.'

This could potentially mean a war with North Korea.

How would such a war play out?

Escalation

I think it would probably start with surgical strikes by American warplanes on key nuclear targets, ordered by President Trump. North Korea would retaliate by bombing various places in South Korea. South Korea could respond, and North Korea would fire it's artillery at Seoul and threaten to use nuclear weapons.

At this point, South Korean forces would neutralize the artillery bombarding seoul. American forces would build up on the Peninsula.

War begins

North Korea would launch a massive assault to pre-emptively disrupt what they view as an imminent American invasion. They would gain headway for a day or two, perhaps reaching the outskirts or just inside Seoul before the heavy losses stall their advance.

The Chinese would try to negotiate a ceasefire as they call up reserves and seal off the North Korean border.


American airpower would slowly gather in the Sea of Japan in the form of Aircraft carriers, and other various warplanes would travel from U.S. pacific territories to Japan to begin reducing North Korean air defences.

North Korean air defences are very pitiful, they barely have enough fuel to fly. Not that it would matter, their outdated, barely maintained Korean war-era planes with their vastly undertrained crews would be knocked out of the sky very quickly. The few anti-air weapons they have are poor even compared to the Iraqi systems in 2003.

With the vast majority of their 'sophisticated' anti-air systems knocked out, what's left will be Korean and World War 2-era anti-aircraft systems of soviet vintage. Similar to the scenes in the 2003 bombing of Baghdad, they'll fire blindly into the air hoping to strike American planes by sheer dumb luck. They may get lucky with a helicopter or two, maybe a bomber, but not much else.

the U.S. might have tens of thousands of troops in the Area at this point in time, a week out. But South Korea has a very sizeable force, much more modern than North Korea. Their own airforce will have assisted the U.S'. Their modern tanks and training will have made short work of North Korean forces. Sheer numbers may make advance difficult. But soon, North Korea will run out of supplies without Chinese support.

Image

Once the threat to airpower is neutralized and U.S. military has had a few weeks to build up, the real air campaign begins against the stalled forces of North Korea. Every bridge and road in North Korea, with the exception of those to be used for the advance of American forces, is blown up. U.S. special strike teams are launching probing attacks from submarine and airborne insertions near the coast. Raiding key targets and searching for Nuclear facilities.

Air Superiority would be replaced with Air Supremacy, and anything that moves would be bombed into oblivion. More bomb tonnage would be dropped in this war than all of WW2 and Vietnam combined. With modern equipment, even moving by night would not spare N. Korean troops U.S. bombardment. Their entire command and control structure would be destroyed with few exceptions and their organization would be lowered to the point where their army is nothing more than independent armed bands of men roving the N. Korean countryside.

the U.S., once it has satisfactorily reduced the North Korean army and command structure, would then, in tandem with it's S. Korean allies, invade the North.

What then? It's very possible China could get involved. It's very possible Nukes could get involved. I have a feeling North Korea would set off a nuke or two, i don't think the U.S. would retaliate. I don't think China would risk a war over North Korea, as that would not end well for them or their economy, and they know it.

What do you guys think? Should we invade North Korea? will we? Must we? How would North Korea respond to U.S. military action against it's facilities? How would China respond?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:08 am
by Tokora
This is one of the few times I agree with the Republicans. As a Communist, the fact that the totalitarian monarchy called North Korea exists in the first place is extremely offensive. The only good thing they done is calling their ideology Juche so that they can stop slandering communism. The worst part is that the PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC of China, run by the COMMUNIST party, is propping up this deformed worker's state. Communism has been murdered by the very men who pledged to spread it.

In my opinion it's similar to WWII, why no one wants a war with a high price in money and lives, the alternative is leaving in power a dictator who murders his own people. The only difference is that unlike the spoiled brat Kim Jong-Un, Hitler actually posed a threat to Euro-Africa.

While I see the Western world of capitalism as greedy and exploitative, only a fool would think its even remotely comparable to the tyranny of the Kim dynasty.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:13 am
by The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
Didn't we just have a thread like this?

BTW, the answer is still no.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:18 am
by The Realm of Lordaeron
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Didn't we just have a thread like this?

BTW, the answer is still no.


Pretty sure every thread has been done before, unless it's on something in the news, which this is.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:33 am
by The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
The Realm of Lordaeron wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Didn't we just have a thread like this?

BTW, the answer is still no.


Pretty sure every thread has been done before, unless it's on something in the news, which this is.

No I mean, we already have a thread for exactly this.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:22 pm
by Union of Despotistan
I would be strongly against such an intervention of the kind.

It's warmongering and it should not be done by the US.
China or South Korea should handle the matter; if they absolutely need to.

Ideally, China should make a swift regime change so this buffer nation could continue to do what it has been created to do until reunification plan could be agreed upon.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:57 pm
by Nekotani
Can't see a way that this would end well, based on how filled with propaganda North Koreans are from birth about how they are a pure race, the Yankees raped and bombed Korea, and the personality cult of the "genius" of the Kim family. An invasion would probably face some major hostile resistance from North Koreans.
Union of Despotistan wrote:Ideally, China should make a swift regime change so this buffer nation could continue to do what it has been created to do until reunification plan could be agreed upon.


Both China and the USSR tried to do this before, it did not work.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:01 pm
by NeuPolska
Tokora wrote:This is one of the few times I agree with the Republicans. As a Communist, the fact that the totalitarian monarchy called North Korea exists in the first place is extremely offensive. The only good thing they done is calling their ideology Juche so that they can stop slandering communism. The worst part is that the PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC of China, run by the COMMUNIST party, is propping up this deformed worker's state. Communism has been murdered by the very men who pledged to spread it.

In my opinion it's similar to WWII, why no one wants a war with a high price in money and lives, the alternative is leaving in power a dictator who murders his own people. The only difference is that unlike the spoiled brat Kim Jong-Un, Hitler actually posed a threat to Euro-Africa.

While I see the Western world of capitalism as greedy and exploitative, only a fool would think its even remotely comparable to the tyranny of the Kim dynasty.

We get it, you're a communist.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:41 pm
by Thermodolia
NeuPolska wrote:
Tokora wrote:This is one of the few times I agree with the Republicans. As a Communist, the fact that the totalitarian monarchy called North Korea exists in the first place is extremely offensive. The only good thing they done is calling their ideology Juche so that they can stop slandering communism. The worst part is that the PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC of China, run by the COMMUNIST party, is propping up this deformed worker's state. Communism has been murdered by the very men who pledged to spread it.

In my opinion it's similar to WWII, why no one wants a war with a high price in money and lives, the alternative is leaving in power a dictator who murders his own people. The only difference is that unlike the spoiled brat Kim Jong-Un, Hitler actually posed a threat to Euro-Africa.

While I see the Western world of capitalism as greedy and exploitative, only a fool would think its even remotely comparable to the tyranny of the Kim dynasty.

We get it, you're a communist.

Well China isn't. China is more state capitalist than USSR style communism

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:49 pm
by NS Miami Shores
Nekotani wrote:Can't see a way that this would end well, based on how filled with propaganda North Koreans are from birth about how they are a pure race, the Yankees raped and bombed Korea, and the personality cult of the "genius" of the Kim family. An invasion would probably face some major hostile resistance from North Koreans.
Union of Despotistan wrote:Ideally, China should make a swift regime change so this buffer nation could continue to do what it has been created to do until reunification plan could be agreed upon.


Both China and the USSR tried to do this before, it did not work.


The nukes are a problem. But one way or another the North Korean regime needs to go. Just like the Cuban military corporate mafia regime of the Castro brothers, yes the Cuban regime also, no excuses. The end of the North Korean regime will make the two North Korean Americans I used to work with happy. There are at least a 1,000,000 South Koreans who have family in North Korea, to make reunification easier and good for both sides.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:54 pm
by Cyrenthia
I'd say we have a bit of time before an invasion becomes reasonable. However, once NK acquires nuclear weapons and ICBMs to deliver them to mainland America, then we need to move fast and destroy their military infrastructure as quickly as possible. Air strikes followed by ground invasion would be preferable.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:44 pm
by Imperium Sidhicum
That sounds like a marvelous idea. If the high and mighty US military with all it's cutting-edge technology failed to rein in a bunch of gun-toting Hajjis despite spending 10 years and over a trillion dollars in Iraq, what gives you the impression that it will be any more successful at "liberating" the millions of Kim family's brainwashed slaves who literally revere their leader as a living god?

The patent incapability of American strategists to think like their enemy is, frankly, difficult to comprehend - especially considering how much education these people have and how well they are paid to do just that. They are so stuck in their American/Western ways of thinking that understanding cultures radically different from their own is simply beyond their grasp, and that proves to be their greatest undoing, as is prominently attested by Iraq and the more recent Middle Eastern conflicts.

From what I see, it isn't just arrogance and underestimation of the enemy, or even a negligent oversight of the enemy's cultural aspects, but a genuine failure to recognize the fundamental differences between their and the enemy cultures, the assumption that the enemy is driven by the same motivations and desires as one's own assets.

Anyone planning the liberation of North Korea would have to account for the fact that four generations of North Koreans have lived their entire lives within an ideological construct with no independent information on the outside world whatsoever. Their perception of reality is fundamentally shaped by ideology, not by objective truth as it generally is in the free world. In essence, where Westerners live with an ideology, North Koreans live for an ideology. The only other belief system so thoroughly encompassing all aspects of life is Islam. Americans in particular would have to consider that hatred for America is a fundamental part of this ideology. Any would-be liberators, and especially Americans, could therefore expect to encounter a fanatically-hostile population fighting for every inch of their soil and, with rare exceptions, preferring death to surrender, rather than a nation grateful for liberation from an oppressive tyrant. Where Westerners see a tyrannical dictator, North Koreans see a living god, and for the majority of them that belief is genuine and sincere - naturally they will fight at the command of their god with a religious zeal.

A decisive military resolution in North Korea without being bogged down into decades-long insurgency would entail nothing short of effective extermination of North Korean people, a measure that would defeat the very purpose of an invasion.

In order to avoid that, any foreign power seeking to liberate the NK would instead first have to target it's culture, sow the seeds of defeat in the very soil from which their enemy grows. That would entail first and foremost breaking the perception of Kim's godlike might and nature, sowing doubt and discontent in the population - a task easier said than done in a society with a government stranglehold on information and the means to access it.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:28 pm
by Union of Despotistan
Nekotani wrote:Can't see a way that this would end well, based on how filled with propaganda North Koreans are from birth about how they are a pure race, the Yankees raped and bombed Korea, and the personality cult of the "genius" of the Kim family. An invasion would probably face some major hostile resistance from North Koreans.
Union of Despotistan wrote:Ideally, China should make a swift regime change so this buffer nation could continue to do what it has been created to do until reunification plan could be agreed upon.


Both China and the USSR tried to do this before, it did not work.


I humbly dont believe this.
Up to recently (last phase of production of nukes) China and late USSR saw North Korea positively. It was a buffer zone and a puppet state under Kim Il Sung who was way more pragmatic than this son and grandson.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:10 am
by The Federation of Kendor
Perhaps the US will win, but at a large cost. If China get involved, they will impose their authritarian socialist rule if they ever get to Pyongyang, the cost of reconstructing North Korean will cause a problem for the reunification as it will only increase the cost by a huge amount, the attacks on Seoul will cause the dead of some K-Pop and K-Drama celebrities, and destroy some economic areas, along with many other consequences

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:22 am
by Ashmoria
this is how it would play out

trump would call xi and tell him that if he doesn't fix it we are going to invade NK

the Chinese would then assassinate kim and install a new more rational government.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:26 am
by The Federation of Kendor
Ashmoria wrote:this is how it would play out

trump would call xi and tell him that if he doesn't fix it we are going to invade NK

the Chinese would then assassinate kim and install a new more rational government.

But China's government is currently an authoritarian part socialist one party state government, which I don't like as there will still be little authroritarian oppression even if it's more better than North Korea's current regime

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:29 am
by Ashmoria
The Federation of Kendor wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:this is how it would play out

trump would call xi and tell him that if he doesn't fix it we are going to invade NK

the Chinese would then assassinate kim and install a new more rational government.

But China's government is currently an authoritarian part socialist one party state government, which I don't like as there will still be little authroritarian oppression even if it's more better than North Korea's current regime

they don't like kim any more than we do. they just don't want to do anything that will end in a unified korea

and xi is hanging with trump next weekend at mar-a-lago and if Chinese communists are allowed to play golf, they are playing golf together.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:31 am
by Nekotani
Union of Despotistan wrote:
Nekotani wrote:Can't see a way that this would end well, based on how filled with propaganda North Koreans are from birth about how they are a pure race, the Yankees raped and bombed Korea, and the personality cult of the "genius" of the Kim family. An invasion would probably face some major hostile resistance from North Koreans.


Both China and the USSR tried to do this before, it did not work.


I humbly dont believe this.
Up to recently (last phase of production of nukes) China and late USSR saw North Korea positively. It was a buffer zone and a puppet state under Kim Il Sung who was way more pragmatic than this son and grandson.


The August Faction Incident involved Chinese and Soviet-backed attempts to depose Il Sung and replace him with a more complacent leader who would work more in favor of their countries. He's something like a Korean Tito, had his own ideas of how he wanted things run and was not content to be a puppet.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:03 am
by Mensirada Nysgceballada Ghebanea
I was on Reddit yesterday (SWS) and the conclusion was that North Korea would get conventionally roflstomped by anything more advanced than them, nazi scum not included (ipso facto they're nazis). Including the US military.
Then of course they try starving peasant version of Operation Downfall after seelow heights-style barrage on Seoul and getting kicked across the DMZ to Pyongyang.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:13 am
by Risottia
The Realm of Lordaeron wrote:Lately we've been hearing talks from Secretary of State Tillerson about possible options regarding Kim Jong-Un's North Korean regime.

He says that 'all options are on the table.'

This could potentially mean a war with North Korea.

How would such a war play out?

Escalation

I think it would probably start with surgical strikes by American warplanes on key nuclear targets, ordered by President Trump. North Korea would retaliate by bombing various places in South Korea. South Korea could respond, and North Korea would fire it's artillery at Seoul and threaten to use nuclear weapons.


More likely "NK nukes Seoul right away" (you know, a cornered mouse with nukes does fight).
Then PR China steps in, warns (together with Russia) Murica to stay the fuck out of the area as they're the aggressors, and removes the Kimmie regime from the premises, placing NK under a protectorate. Kimmie and and pals get either "suicided" or handed to an ad-hoc international criminal court. South Korea now faces a million-strong Chinese army at its border, and is in tatters after having lost their capital.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:14 am
by Tokora
NeuPolska wrote:We get it, you're a communist.

Sorry for the rant, just hearing the name North Korea manages to strike every nerve.

Union of Despotistan wrote:I would be strongly against such an intervention of the kind.

It's warmongering and it should not be done by the US.
China or South Korea should handle the matter; if they absolutely need to.

Ideally, China should make a swift regime change so this buffer nation could continue to do what it has been created to do until reunification plan could be agreed upon.

I agree completely but at the end of the day, someone needs to do it. I'd support either a Korean revolution or letting Russia invade.

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
The Realm of Lordaeron wrote:
Pretty sure every thread has been done before, unless it's on something in the news, which this is.

No I mean, we already have a thread for exactly this.

Would it be wrong if I moved my last post to that thread?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:16 am
by The United Colonies of Earth
Risottia wrote:
The Realm of Lordaeron wrote:Lately we've been hearing talks from Secretary of State Tillerson about possible options regarding Kim Jong-Un's North Korean regime.

He says that 'all options are on the table.'

This could potentially mean a war with North Korea.

How would such a war play out?

Escalation

I think it would probably start with surgical strikes by American warplanes on key nuclear targets, ordered by President Trump. North Korea would retaliate by bombing various places in South Korea. South Korea could respond, and North Korea would fire it's artillery at Seoul and threaten to use nuclear weapons.


More likely "NK nukes Seoul right away" (you know, a cornered mouse with nukes does fight).
Then PR China steps in, warns (together with Russia) Murica to stay the fuck out of the area as they're the aggressors, and removes the Kimmie regime from the premises, placing NK under a protectorate. Kimmie and and pals get either "suicided" or handed to an ad-hoc international criminal court. South Korea now faces a million-strong Chinese army at its border, and is in tatters after having lost their capital.

"We've rebuilt before, we'll rebuild again"
Unless the modern nuke really does have similar effects to Covenant glassing. But in the meantime yeah, SK is fucked.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:17 am
by Imperializt Russia
No offence, but this has all the precision and accuracy of a palm-reader's generalisations.

Also, that image isn't of "anti-aircraft guns". Saddam gave a standing order to all firearm-owning citizens that on a given signal (IIRC, a 2-second blackout), everyone must stand on their roofs and fire their weapons into the sky.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:18 am
by The United Colonies of Earth
Imperializt Russia wrote:No offence, but this has all the precision and accuracy of a palm-reader's generalisations.

Also, that image isn't of "anti-aircraft guns". Saddam gave a standing order to all firearm-owning citizens that on a given signal (IIRC, a 2-second blackout), everyone must stand on their roofs and fire their weapons into the sky.

Wouldn't that be more of a hazard to the Iraqi populace than to any fucking jets?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:22 am
by Imperializt Russia
The United Colonies of Earth wrote:
Risottia wrote:
More likely "NK nukes Seoul right away" (you know, a cornered mouse with nukes does fight).
Then PR China steps in, warns (together with Russia) Murica to stay the fuck out of the area as they're the aggressors, and removes the Kimmie regime from the premises, placing NK under a protectorate. Kimmie and and pals get either "suicided" or handed to an ad-hoc international criminal court. South Korea now faces a million-strong Chinese army at its border, and is in tatters after having lost their capital.

"We've rebuilt before, we'll rebuild again"
Unless the modern nuke really does have similar effects to Covenant glassing. But in the meantime yeah, SK is fucked.

The wider Seoul area is where 80% of South Korean citizens live and home to the various industrial and technological giants that drive the South's economy.

Even a Hiroshima-yield weapon would be absolutely, completely devastating to Seoul and the South with it, especially if the North makes good on its direct and indirect threats to use chemical and biological weapons on Seoul.
Physical damage, direct casualties, radiation fear, global financial damage. This wouldn't be like Japan rebuilding Hiroshima, nor even Germany rebuilding Berlin.