Israel operates with impunity??

[G-Tech Corporation]

Nope.
Just gonna.. watch.

And why don't you want your views challenged? That close minded?

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

[Pope Joan]

Israelis are indigenous. "Palestine" never owned any of the land, except for the Gaza strip, which it stopped claiming for decades.
Israel was founded in May 1948, and by 1949 claimed all of the total area except for Judea and Samaria and the Gaza strip.
The first Palestine, the All-Palestine-Government, was founded September of the same year (by a nazi recruiter named Hajj Amin Al Husseini), only claiming Gaza and failing by the mid-to-late 1950s and ceasing to exist and giving control of it's territory to Egypt.
After the three day war in 1967, Israel claimed Judea and Samaria and the Gaza Strip, as well as the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights.
In 1988, the PLO declared a new Palestinian state and finally claimed Judea and Samaria as it's own for the first time, it also claimed the Gaza Strip.

Israeli claims in Judea and Samaria predate Palestinian claims by 40 years (and Jewish claims there predate Islamic claims by centuries).

Shhhh.

Stop using the real facts. You know that isn't playing fair.

Ever since the fall of the Northern Kingdom, Samaria has not been Jewish. 722 BCE
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the ... -of-israel

[Nioya]

Well the Palestine issue is a whole matter in itself. Israel robbed land and now oppresses it's indigenous population.

Israelis are indigenous. "Palestine" never owned any of the land, except for the Gaza strip, which it stopped claiming for decades.
Israel was founded in May 1948, and by 1949 claimed all of the total area except for Judea and Samaria and the Gaza strip.
The first Palestine, the All-Palestine-Government, was founded September of the same year (by a nazi recruiter named Hajj Amin Al Husseini), only claiming Gaza and failing by the mid-to-late 1950s and ceasing to exist and giving control of it's territory to Egypt.
After the three day war in 1967, Israel claimed Judea and Samaria and the Gaza Strip, as well as the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights.
In 1988, the PLO declared a new Palestinian state and finally claimed Judea and Samaria as it's own for the first time, it also claimed the Gaza Strip.

Israeli claims in Judea and Samaria predate Palestinian claims by 40 years (and Jewish claims there predate Islamic claims by centuries).

Numerous arab states have claimed territory all over the territory of palestine from 1800 to 2000. They were originally taken away from the arabs by the british empire as part of an attempt at colonialization. The indigenous arab population has been present in the territory of Palestine for millennia and longer than any jewish community. Palestinian identity predates the state of israel. It almost predates zionism.

The claims Israel makes are based on either antiquity or lies and they're completely illegitimate. There had already been an arab majority living in samaria and judea prior to the false claims of israel to the territory. Israel's pursuit of territorial expansion through bloodshed and terrorism, as well as the apartheid rule of palestinians, is pure butchery. It is inhumane and nullifies any claims israel has.

The all palestine government was merely theoretical government lacking all administration by the arab league. Arabs had lived in palestine for centuries before any jews settled there. They had every right to the territory of palestine. Any possible official claim has been suppressed by the state of israel, since palestinians are fundamentally second class citizens.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Shhhh.

Stop using the real facts. You know that isn't playing fair.

Ever since the fall of the Northern Kingdom, Samaria has not been Jewish. 722 BCE
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the ... -of-israel

That's like using the argument that ever since the proclamation of the Israeli state, Samaria hasn't been Palestinian.

If you're happy to accept that premise, I'm happy to accept yours. Working through primacy of claims by displacement is a fool's errand.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Numerous arab states have claimed territory all over the territory of palestine from 1800 to 2000. They were originally taken away from the arabs by the british empire as part of an attempt at colonialization. The indigenous arab population has been present in the territory of Palestine for millennia and longer than any jewish community. Palestinian identity predates the state of israel. It almost predates zionism.

The claims Israel makes are based on either antiquity or lies and they're completely illegitimate. There had already been an arab majority living in samaria and judea prior to the false claims of israel to the territory. Israel's pursuit of territorial expansion through bloodshed and terrorism, as well as the apartheid rule of palestinians, is pure butchery. It is inhumane and nullifies any claims israel has.

The all palestine government was merely theoretical government lacking all administration by the arab league. Arabs had lived in palestine for centuries before any jews settled there. They had every right to the territory of palestine. Any possible official claim has been suppressed by the state of israel, since palestinians are fundamentally second class citizens.

Patently false. When the Jews settled Israel the concept of Arab didn't exist.

[Nioya]

Numerous arab states have claimed territory all over the territory of palestine from 1800 to 2000. They were originally taken away from the arabs by the british empire as part of an attempt at colonialization. The indigenous arab population has been present in the territory of Palestine for millennia and longer than any jewish community. Palestinian identity predates the state of israel. It almost predates zionism.

The claims Israel makes are based on either antiquity or lies and they're completely illegitimate. There had already been an arab majority living in samaria and judea prior to the false claims of israel to the territory. Israel's pursuit of territorial expansion through bloodshed and terrorism, as well as the apartheid rule of palestinians, is pure butchery. It is inhumane and nullifies any claims israel has.

The all palestine government was merely theoretical government lacking all administration by the arab league. Arabs had lived in palestine for centuries before any jews settled there. They had every right to the territory of palestine. Any possible official claim has been suppressed by the state of israel, since palestinians are fundamentally second class citizens.

Patently false. When the Jews settled Israel the concept of Arab didn't exist.

http://imgur.com/9QbFRZG

[Nioya]

Numerous arab states have claimed territory all over the territory of palestine from 1800 to 2000. They were originally taken away from the arabs by the british empire as part of an attempt at colonialization. The indigenous arab population has been present in the territory of Palestine for millennia and longer than any jewish community. Palestinian identity predates the state of israel. It almost predates zionism.

The claims Israel makes are based on either antiquity or lies and they're completely illegitimate. There had already been an arab majority living in samaria and judea prior to the false claims of israel to the territory. Israel's pursuit of territorial expansion through bloodshed and terrorism, as well as the apartheid rule of palestinians, is pure butchery. It is inhumane and nullifies any claims israel has.

The all palestine government was merely theoretical government lacking all administration by the arab league. Arabs had lived in palestine for centuries before any jews settled there. They had every right to the territory of palestine. Any possible official claim has been suppressed by the state of israel, since palestinians are fundamentally second class citizens.

Patently false. When the Jews settled Israel the concept of Arab didn't exist.

Arabs are an ethnic, linguistic, and cultural group going back even before the rise of Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia

If you're going to make up such a pathetic lie, there's no point in having this discussion. If you're going to make up facts out of thin air to support your agenda, there's no point having a rational discussion. I've just won this debate by default.

[Proctopeo]

Patently false. When the Jews settled Israel the concept of Arab didn't exist.

Arabs are an ethnic, linguistic, and cultural group going back even before the rise of Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia

If you're going to make up such a pathetic lie, there's no point in having this discussion. If you're going to make up facts out of thin air to support your agenda, there's no point having a rational discussion. I've just won this debate by default.

The concept of "Arab", etymologically speaking, is first attested to 328 CE. Ancient Israel is certainly older, with the term "Israel" first being used in 1209 BCE.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Patently false. When the Jews settled Israel the concept of Arab didn't exist.

Arabs are an ethnic, linguistic, and cultural group going back even before the rise of Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia

If you're going to make up such a pathetic lie, there's no point in having this discussion. If you're going to make up facts out of thin air to support your agenda, there's no point having a rational discussion. I've just won this debate by default.

Bullshit. Applying modern cultural definitions to disparate tribes based on the geographical region they inhabited which was only named "Arabia" by the Hebrews is fallacious on the face of it. Retrograde categorization is great for revisionist history, but absolute wank when actually trying to determine truth. Learn to etymology. The Arabs weren't even united linguistically or culturally until after the rise of Islam.

Fact: Arab, as a word, isn't attested to until the Hebrew kingdom was well established, and even then wasn't used as an overarching cultural identity, but rather an indication of where a person hailed from. The ethnolinguistic groups the Israelis displaced in Canaan no longer exist, leaving the Israelis as the claimant with the longest land ties.

[Nioya]

Arabs are an ethnic, linguistic, and cultural group going back even before the rise of Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia

If you're going to make up such a pathetic lie, there's no point in having this discussion. If you're going to make up facts out of thin air to support your agenda, there's no point having a rational discussion. I've just won this debate by default.

Bullshit. Applying modern cultural definitions to disparate tribes based on the geographical region they inhabited which was only named "Arabia" by the Hebrews is fallacious on the face of it. Retrograde categorization is great for revisionist history, but absolute wank when actually trying to determine truth. Learn to etymology. The Arabs weren't even united linguistically or culturally until after the rise of Islam.

Fact: Arab, as a word, isn't attested to until the Hebrew kingdom was well established, and even then wasn't used as an overarching cultural identity, but rather an indication of where a person hailed from. The ethnolinguistic groups the Israelis displaced in Canaan no longer exist, leaving the Israelis as the claimant with the longest land ties.

So you're talking about the ancient settlements? Not the modern zionist settlememts?

OK. They don't matter. Statute of limitations expires after one thousand years.

[Proctopeo]

Bullshit. Applying modern cultural definitions to disparate tribes based on the geographical region they inhabited which was only named "Arabia" by the Hebrews is fallacious on the face of it. Retrograde categorization is great for revisionist history, but absolute wank when actually trying to determine truth. Learn to etymology. The Arabs weren't even united linguistically or culturally until after the rise of Islam.

Fact: Arab, as a word, isn't attested to until the Hebrew kingdom was well established, and even then wasn't used as an overarching cultural identity, but rather an indication of where a person hailed from. The ethnolinguistic groups the Israelis displaced in Canaan no longer exist, leaving the Israelis as the claimant with the longest land ties.

So you're talking about the ancient settlements? Not the modern zionist settlememts?

OK. They don't matter. Statute of limitations expires after one thousand years.

Says who?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Bullshit. Applying modern cultural definitions to disparate tribes based on the geographical region they inhabited which was only named "Arabia" by the Hebrews is fallacious on the face of it. Retrograde categorization is great for revisionist history, but absolute wank when actually trying to determine truth. Learn to etymology. The Arabs weren't even united linguistically or culturally until after the rise of Islam.

Fact: Arab, as a word, isn't attested to until the Hebrew kingdom was well established, and even then wasn't used as an overarching cultural identity, but rather an indication of where a person hailed from. The ethnolinguistic groups the Israelis displaced in Canaan no longer exist, leaving the Israelis as the claimant with the longest land ties.

So you're talking about the ancient settlements? Not the modern zionist settlememts?

OK. They don't matter. Statute of limitations expires after one thousand years.

Nice assertion you have there. According to what international statute?

Also, arguably, the Jewish state in Palestine was never formally destroyed, only conquered. Persians, Seleucids, Romans, Ottomans, all that. Still Jews hanging out in old settlements with an ongoing claim suppressed by military might. Now they happen to be back on top, with a modernized structure. GG no re.

[Crockerland]

Israelis are indigenous. "Palestine" never owned any of the land, except for the Gaza strip, which it stopped claiming for decades.
Israel was founded in May 1948, and by 1949 claimed all of the total area except for Judea and Samaria and the Gaza strip.
The first Palestine, the All-Palestine-Government, was founded September of the same year (by a nazi recruiter named Hajj Amin Al Husseini), only claiming Gaza and failing by the mid-to-late 1950s and ceasing to exist and giving control of it's territory to Egypt.
After the three day war in 1967, Israel claimed Judea and Samaria and the Gaza Strip, as well as the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights.
In 1988, the PLO declared a new Palestinian state and finally claimed Judea and Samaria as it's own for the first time, it also claimed the Gaza Strip.

Israeli claims in Judea and Samaria predate Palestinian claims by 40 years (and Jewish claims there predate Islamic claims by centuries).

Numerous arab states have claimed territory all over the territory of palestine from 1800 to 2000. They were originally taken away from the arabs by the british empire as part of an attempt at colonialization. The indigenous arab population has been present in the territory of Palestine for millennia and longer than any jewish community. Palestinian identity predates the state of israel. It almost predates zionism.

"Palestinian identity predates the state of [I]srael" is a nonsequiter from "Numerous arab states have claimed territory all over the territory of palestine [sic] from 1800 to 2000". There was never any Palestinian culture or ethnicity prior to Hajj amin al Husseini.

The claims Israel makes are based on either antiquity or lies and they're completely illegitimate.

Projection.

There had already been an arab majority living in samaria and judea prior to the false claims of israel to the territory.

And? Demographics have changed continuously since the dawn of time.

Israel's pursuit of territorial expansion through bloodshed and terrorism, as well as the apartheid is pure butchery. It is inhumane and nullifies any claims israel has.

Nope, there's no "Apartheid" and never has been, Israel has numerous Arabs in it's government, stop insulting people who actually went through Apartheid.

The all palestine government was merely theoretical government lacking all administration by the arab league.

So it had no legitimacy, in other words.

Arabs had lived in palestine for centuries before any jews settled there.

Arabs arrived with the Rashidun Caliphate in the 600s, Jewish people first arrived in Israel around 1000 BC. Arabs lived almost exclusively in the Arabian peninsula until the rise of Islam caused them to dominate the rest of the middle east and North Africa.

They had every right to the territory of palestine.

And they gave up their rights when they tried to slaughter the Jewish population of British Palestine. Judea and Samaria was lost from Arab control due to Arab aggression, first in 1948 and again in 1967.

Any possible official claim has been suppressed by the state of israel, since palestinians are fundamentally second class citizens.

Vague conspiracy theories.

Patently false. When the Jews settled Israel the concept of Arab didn't exist.

Arabs are an ethnic, linguistic, and cultural group going back even before the rise of Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_(etymology)#In_Arabic
"The oldest surviving indication of an Arab identity is an inscription made in early Arabic using the Nabatean Aramaic alphabet in 328 CE, which refers to Imru' al-Qays ibn 'Amr as "King of all the Arabs"."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)
"This is traditionally dated between 1050 and 930 BCE."

328 CE did not occur before 1000 BCE.

If you're going to make up such a pathetic lie, there's no point in having this discussion. If you're going to make up facts out of thin air to support your agenda, there's no point having a rational discussion. I've just won this debate by default.

Hilarious and ironic for a number of reasons.

[Thermodolia]

Patently false. When the Jews settled Israel the concept of Arab didn't exist.

Arabs are an ethnic, linguistic, and cultural group going back even before the rise of Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia

If you're going to make up such a pathetic lie, there's no point in having this discussion. If you're going to make up facts out of thin air to support your agenda, there's no point having a rational discussion. I've just won this debate by default.

And Jews and Israelis are much much older. Please do research before you shoot yourself in the foot

[Thermodolia]

So you're talking about the ancient settlements? Not the modern zionist settlememts?

OK. They don't matter. Statute of limitations expires after one thousand years.

Nice assertion you have there. According to what international statute?

Also, arguably, the Jewish state in Palestine was never formally destroyed, only conquered. Persians, Seleucids, Romans, Ottomans, all that. Still Jews hanging out in old settlements with an ongoing claim suppressed by military might. Now they happen to be back on top, with a modernized structure. GG no re.

So one could claim that Israel was illegal occupied until the late 1940's?

[Uelvan]

Arabs are an ethnic, linguistic, and cultural group going back even before the rise of Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia

If you're going to make up such a pathetic lie, there's no point in having this discussion. If you're going to make up facts out of thin air to support your agenda, there's no point having a rational discussion. I've just won this debate by default.

Bullshit. Applying modern cultural definitions to disparate tribes based on the geographical region they inhabited which was only named "Arabia" by the Hebrews is fallacious on the face of it. Retrograde categorization is great for revisionist history, but absolute wank when actually trying to determine truth. Learn to etymology. The Arabs weren't even united linguistically or culturally until after the rise of Islam.

Fact: Arab, as a word, isn't attested to until the Hebrew kingdom was well established, and even then wasn't used as an overarching cultural identity, but rather an indication of where a person hailed from. The ethnolinguistic groups the Israelis displaced in Canaan no longer exist, leaving the Israelis as the claimant with the longest land ties.

The word Arab is as old as the Kingdom of Israel. The first mention of them is by the Assyrians who referred to them as "Sarabi" which meant "Nomad." The identity of the Arabs being nomads predates recorded history, so...

[Osnil Returns]

Yes, let's condemn a nation for fully defending itself.

[Thermodolia]

Bullshit. Applying modern cultural definitions to disparate tribes based on the geographical region they inhabited which was only named "Arabia" by the Hebrews is fallacious on the face of it. Retrograde categorization is great for revisionist history, but absolute wank when actually trying to determine truth. Learn to etymology. The Arabs weren't even united linguistically or culturally until after the rise of Islam.

Fact: Arab, as a word, isn't attested to until the Hebrew kingdom was well established, and even then wasn't used as an overarching cultural identity, but rather an indication of where a person hailed from. The ethnolinguistic groups the Israelis displaced in Canaan no longer exist, leaving the Israelis as the claimant with the longest land ties.

The word Arab is as old as the Kingdom of Israel. The first mention of them is by the Assyrians who referred to them as "Sarabi" which meant "Nomad." The identity of the Arabs being nomads predates recorded history, so...

Much of the Kingdom of Israel does the same.

[Uelvan]

Arabs are an ethnic, linguistic, and cultural group going back even before the rise of Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_(etymology)#In_Arabic

[/quote]

This is specifically the first mention of the word Arab in the Arabic alphabet, however the Arabic alphabet was relatively new around that time period, so that's not really unexpected.

[G-Tech Corporation]

So one could claim that Israel was illegal occupied until the late 1940's?

Personally I wouldn't go that far, since that backdates our modern concepts of occupation and international law in to an era that they didn't exist. But you can certainly argue that the Hebrew people continued to live in their ancestral homes despite those homes being conquered by foreign powers.

The word Arab is as old as the Kingdom of Israel. The first mention of them is by the Assyrians who referred to them as "Sarabi" which meant "Nomad." The identity of the Arabs being nomads predates recorded history, so...

Even supposing that the Assyrian word can be specifically linked to a particular ethnolinguistic group which corresponds to that of modern Arabs instead of general nomads, the fact remains that at the time the Assyrians formulated the expression the modern "Arab" culture lived in, yknow, Arabia. Not Palestine. The Assyrians were not referring to pagan tribes that lived in Canaan before the Israelites when they spoke of Arabs, unless you know something I don't. Canaan was notoriously well settled and sedentary, and so highly unlikely to have been "Sarabi".

So inhabitants of Canaan =/= Arabs. Even if we generously allow the Assyrian word to have been formulated prior to Israeli settlement, which is dubious simply due to the length of time Assryia existed.

[Nioya]

So you're talking about the ancient settlements? Not the modern zionist settlememts?

OK. They don't matter. Statute of limitations expires after one thousand years.

Says who?

Says common sense. No other ethnic group bases their claim to occupying territory displacing the indigenous population based on their antiquity. That's silly. This would never be allowed for any other government. This is equivalent to saying americans have the right to invade and take over France because Americans of colonial, German, and Irish ancestry all have distant gaulic ancestry. Or justifying Congolese genocide because all Europeans all originate from Africa.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Says who?

Says common sense. No other ethnic group bases their claim to occupying territory displacing the indigenous population based on their antiquity. That's silly. This would never be allowed for any other government. This is equivalent to saying americans have the right to invade and take over France because Americans of colonial, German, and Irish ancestry all have distant gaulic ancestry. Or justifying Congolese genocide because all Europeans all originate from Africa.

Protip: Any time you have to fall back on "common sense" for your argumentation, you don't have a leg left to stand on.

Also, reductio ad adsurdum has never been a valid method of discourse. Even the Romans recognized that.

Edit: Muh Latin spelling.

[Crockerland]

Says who?

Says common sense. No other ethnic group bases their claim to occupying territory displacing the indigenous population based on their antiquity. That's silly. This would never be allowed for any other government. This is equivalent to saying americans have the right to invade and take over France because Americans of colonial, German, and Irish ancestry all have distant gaulic ancestry. Or justifying Congolese genocide because all Europeans all originate from Africa.

So, in other words, it's an arbitrary number you made up.

[Proctopeo]

Says who?

Says common sense. No other ethnic group bases their claim to occupying territory displacing the indigenous population based on their antiquity. That's silly. This would never be allowed for any other government. This is equivalent to saying americans have the right to invade and take over France because Americans of colonial, German, and Irish ancestry all have distant gaulic ancestry. Or justifying Congolese genocide because all Europeans all originate from Africa.

To copy G-Tech, "common sense" is not an argument. And to copy Crockerland, you chose an arbitrary number.

And to not copy anyone, you are aware that Americans are more than just German, English, and Irish, right?

[Uelvan]

So one could claim that Israel was illegal occupied until the late 1940's?

Personally I wouldn't go that far, since that backdates our modern concepts of occupation and international law in to an era that they didn't exist. But you can certainly argue that the Hebrew people continued to live in their ancestral homes despite those homes being conquered by foreign powers.

The word Arab is as old as the Kingdom of Israel. The first mention of them is by the Assyrians who referred to them as "Sarabi" which meant "Nomad." The identity of the Arabs being nomads predates recorded history, so...

Even supposing that the Assyrian word can be specifically linked to a particular ethnolinguistic group which corresponds to that of modern Arabs instead of general nomads, the fact remains that at the time the Assyrians formulated the expression the modern "Arab" culture lived in, yknow, Arabia. Not Palestine. The Assyrians were not referring to pagan tribes that lived in Canaan before the Israelites when they spoke of Arabs, unless you know something I don't. Canaan was notoriously well settled and sedentary, and so highly unlikely to have been "Sarabi".

So inhabitants of Canaan =/= Arabs. Even if we generously allow the Assyrian word to have been formulated prior to Israeli settlement, which is dubious simply due to the length of time Assryia existed.

Canaanites were definitely not Arabs. The concept of a Pre-Islamic Arab were the tribal nomads. The Assyrian term most certainly can be used to link the concept too as they not only used the word "Sarabi" to denote the tribal nomads, but they called their land, "mâtu arbâi/aribâi." That said any attempt to portray Canaan as Arabian is fallacious. Though they were both ancient "Semites" there was no 1 single "Semitic" culture group the Arabs could have claimed the be the forefathers of.