Israel operates with impunity??

[Neutraligon]

Israel is the only democracy in the middle east that shares western values, Also I'm glad Israel is bombing Syria, that communist tyrant deserves to have his mercenaries bombed into oblivion.

I am not sure it does. Israel is not in any way a Western nation. Is it closer to the west then other middle eastern nations, yes, but that is about it.

[G-Tech Corporation]

All my lol.

The more Hezbollah fighters the Israelis remove from the face of the earth via applied airpower, the better for Lebanon and the Middle East.

[Crockerland]

Israel is not in any way a Western nation. Is it closer to the west then other middle eastern nations, yes, but that is about it.

What objective measure are you using to determine western nations?

[ImperialistSalvia]

that communist tyrant deserves to have his mercenaries bombed into oblivion.

So radical Islamists can take control and further destabilize the Middle East? Great plan, look how well it worked in Iraq & Libya

[Neutraligon]

Israel is not in any way a Western nation. Is it closer to the west then other middle eastern nations, yes, but that is about it.

What objective measure are you using to determine western nations?

There is no objective measure.

[Krasny-Volny]

Israel is the only democracy in the middle east that shares western values, Also I'm glad Israel is bombing Syria, that communist tyrant deserves to have his mercenaries bombed into oblivion.

I am not sure it does. Israel is not in any way a Western nation. Is it closer to the west then other middle eastern nations, yes, but that is about it.

Looks can be deceiving.

When I was in a certain neighborhood of Tel-Aviv, I would sometimes forget I was actually in Israel. It felt so much like the United States - the buildings, the way the streets were designed, the pedestrian crossings, the storefronts, the golden retrievers, the American accents (everything from Brooklyn to Boston to Deep South, the last of which really surprised me), the convenience stores like 7 Eleven, the parks, the hamburger joints, the diners, and the advertisements. It all felt so unbelievably American. The effect of so many people packing guns - mostly IDF reservists - obviously added an even more ironic and humorous touch, given how famous Americans are for their gun culture.

Keep in mind I'm not an American or an Israeli and I think people who were actually born and lived their entire lives in one place could tell the difference. But obviously others will have a hard time telling them part.

If you had literally ripped a middle class urban neighborhood out of any major city in the US and transplanted it to the Middle East the illusion could not have been any more perfect. I literally forgot I was in the Middle East. Not any other Middle Eastern city I'd been to, no matter how Westernised it was - not Dubai, not Istanbul, none could hold a candle to just how classically American this felt.

Obviously the rational explanation is that all the American Jews in Israel wanted to feel at home and replicate the things they were accustomed to in the US. But all of a sudden I thought I understood why American politicians seem to love Israel so much. If you look at things at juuuust the right angle they really have a lot in common. That particular location was like an ex-American colony that's still Americaphile or something.

Of course not all of Tel-Aviv is like that, I'm only describing a small section I personally visited.

But I realized that this feeds the illusion that Israel is a Western country espousing values and a society very similar to America's own. That's not really the case. Politics aside, it has much less in common with the US than Europe or Canada and obviously has its own set of unique circumstances.

[Neutraligon]

I am not sure it does. Israel is not in any way a Western nation. Is it closer to the west then other middle eastern nations, yes, but that is about it.

Looks can be deceiving.

When I was in a certain neighborhood of Tel-Aviv, I would sometimes forget I was actually in Israel. It felt so much like the United States - the buildings, the way the streets were designed, the pedestrian crossings, the storefronts, the golden retrievers, the American accents (everything from Brooklyn to Boston to Deep South, the last of which really surprised me), the convenience stores like 7 Eleven, the parks, the hamburger joints, the diners, and the advertisements. It all felt so unbelievably American. The effect of so many people packing guns - mostly IDF reservists - obviously added an even more ironic and humorous touch, given how famous Americans are for their gun culture.

Huh while I was there, and that includes Tel Aviv, I knew for a fact I was not in the US. It felt nothing like America to me. The Israeli accents, the hatred of Muslims spouted without care or concern...from those representing the government (A security guard asks me if I had a boyfriend name Muhammad, and I asked why I was answered because we would not want Muhammad packing your bags...yes), the type of security there, the buildings, the fact that a restaurant I walked into had apparently been shot up by terrorists, etc.

Keep in mind I'm not an American or an Israeli and I think people who were actually born and lived their entire lives in one place could tell the difference. But obviously others will have a hard time telling them part.

I am an American, the difference where incredibly different. And this had nothing to do with me being American, the difference between Israel and other European countries I have visited (England, Germany, Austria, Spain, Prague, The Czech Republic) was staggering. Of all the cities I was to in Israel, tel Aviv was closest, but even that was nothing like any European or American city I had been to.

If you had literally ripped a middle class urban neighborhood out of any major city in the US and transplanted it to the Middle East the illusion could not have been any more perfect.

You are absolutely wrong, I say this a person who has been to most of the major cities in the US. I could not forget that I was in the middle East, because it was nothing like an American city.

I literally forgot I was in the Middle East. Not any other Middle Eastern city I'd been to, no matter how Westernised it was - not Dubai, not Istanbul, none could hold a candle to just how classically American this felt.

Was it closer to a western city, yes, was it like an American city...hell no.

Obviously the rational explanation is that all the American Jews in Israel wanted to feel at home and replicate the things they were accustomed to in the US. But all of a sudden I thought I understood why American politicians seem to love Israel so much. If you look at things at juuuust the right angle they really have a lot in common. That particular location was like an ex-American colony that's still Americaphile or something.

It really wasn't I don't know how many times I need to repeat this. THe people there are not Americans, even those that grew up in America (family friend who has lived in Israel for the past 20 years) where not American.

Of course not all of Tel-Aviv is like that, I'm only describing a small section I personally visited.

So your claim that the country is in fact Western based on this small part of the city you visited is somewhat more Western then other Middle Easter cities is bunk.

But I realized that this feeds the illusion that Israel is a Western country espousing values and a society very similar to America's own. That's not really the case. Politics aside, it has much less in common with the US than Europe or Canada and obviously has its own set of unique circumstances.

So you agree, it is not really a Western country.

[Krasny-Volny]

Looks can be deceiving.

When I was in a certain neighborhood of Tel-Aviv, I would sometimes forget I was actually in Israel. It felt so much like the United States - the buildings, the way the streets were designed, the pedestrian crossings, the storefronts, the golden retrievers, the American accents (everything from Brooklyn to Boston to Deep South, the last of which really surprised me), the convenience stores like 7 Eleven, the parks, the hamburger joints, the diners, and the advertisements. It all felt so unbelievably American. The effect of so many people packing guns - mostly IDF reservists - obviously added an even more ironic and humorous touch, given how famous Americans are for their gun culture.

Huh while I was there, and that includes Tel Aviv, I knew for a fact I was not in the US. It felt nothing like America to me. The Israeli accents, the hatred of Muslims spouted without care or concern...from those representing the government (A security guard asks me if I had a boyfriend name Muhammad, and I asked why I was answered because we would not want Muhammad packing your bags...yes), the type of security there, the buildings, the fact that a restaurant I walked into had apparently been shot up by terrorists, etc.

Keep in mind I'm not an American or an Israeli and I think people who were actually born and lived their entire lives in one place could tell the difference. But obviously others will have a hard time telling them part.

I am an American, the difference where incredibly different. And this had nothing to do with me being American, the difference between Israel and other European countries I have visited (England, Germany, Austria, Spain, Prague, The Czech Republic) was staggering. Of all the cities I was to in Israel, tel Aviv was closest, but even that was nothing like any European or American city I had been to.

If you had literally ripped a middle class urban neighborhood out of any major city in the US and transplanted it to the Middle East the illusion could not have been any more perfect.

You are absolutely wrong, I say this a person who has been to most of the major cities in the US. I could not forget that I was in the middle East, because it was nothing like an American city.

I literally forgot I was in the Middle East. Not any other Middle Eastern city I'd been to, no matter how Westernised it was - not Dubai, not Istanbul, none could hold a candle to just how classically American this felt.

Was it closer to a western city, yes, was it like an American city...hell no.

Obviously the rational explanation is that all the American Jews in Israel wanted to feel at home and replicate the things they were accustomed to in the US. But all of a sudden I thought I understood why American politicians seem to love Israel so much. If you look at things at juuuust the right angle they really have a lot in common. That particular location was like an ex-American colony that's still Americaphile or something.

It really wasn't I don't know how many times I need to repeat this. THe people there are not Americans, even those that grew up in America (family friend who has lived in Israel for the past 20 years) where not American.

Of course not all of Tel-Aviv is like that, I'm only describing a small section I personally visited.

So your claim that the country is in fact Western based on this small part of the city you visited is somewhat more Western then other Middle Easter cities is bunk.

But I realized that this feeds the illusion that Israel is a Western country espousing values and a society very similar to America's own. That's not really the case. Politics aside, it has much less in common with the US than Europe or Canada and obviously has its own set of unique circumstances.

So you agree, it is not really a Western country.

Yes. I agree it is not a Western country. I'm not sure why you seem to think I wasn't making this message clear, as I very explicitly said so.

But I stand by my remarks about how American this one part of Tel-Aviv felt. And I likewise stand by the fact that some of the people I met there spoke with US rather Israeli accents. A female soldier addressed me in what sounded like a Southern drawl (this one threw me the most). And I talked to a waiter and a convenience store clerk who were from Boston. One said he didn't really want to stay there but his parents wanted him to have the experience of living in Israel for a while. A kid about college age also loaned me this special credit card to fill up my gas tank with (I was out of gas and there were no other gas stations I could've reached but this one only took a special type of card, which I did not have) and said he was originally from Brooklyn.

I know I met these people and interacted with them, so obviously your experience with Tel-Aviv was much more different from mine.

Keep in mind every traveler's experience is different.

Remember also that I stated in my post that Americans and Israelis will probably not find it as similar as I did, because they were born and raised in their respective countries. Since you are an American no doubt you see things that way.

[The East Marches II]

How can you call yourself pro-America with those sorts of views?

Given that, by your own standards (for the Jewish state, at least), supporting a country evidently means supporting it's worst aspects (in Israel's case, corrupt politicians selling out allied countries for monetary gain), being pro-America must be an ideology of being in favor of countless massacres, war rapes, and decades of imperialism and sponsorship of terrorism and corrupt dictatorships. Describing yourself as being in favor of any country by the standards you have for Israel is an atrocity.

On the issue of Israel, I am not pro-Israel, I am not pro-US, I am just pro-morality.

You can dress up with all the fancy rhetoric you want. At the end of the day the realistic result is your blind support for Israel allows them to do exceptionally treacherous things. They should be held to account and not defend on the basis of "pro-morality" or "only democracy in the ME". Who gives a shit? They are harmful to our strategic interests. They are a liability.

[Krasny-Volny]

Given that, by your own standards (for the Jewish state, at least), supporting a country evidently means supporting it's worst aspects (in Israel's case, corrupt politicians selling out allied countries for monetary gain), being pro-America must be an ideology of being in favor of countless massacres, war rapes, and decades of imperialism and sponsorship of terrorism and corrupt dictatorships. Describing yourself as being in favor of any country by the standards you have for Israel is an atrocity.

On the issue of Israel, I am not pro-Israel, I am not pro-US, I am just pro-morality.

You can dress up with all the fancy rhetoric you want. At the end of the day the realistic result is your blind support for Israel allows them to do exceptionally treacherous things. They should be held to account and not defend on the basis of "pro-morality" or "only democracy in the ME". Who gives a shit? They are harmful to our strategic interests. They are a liability.

I do wonder why unquestioning support for Israel is still the norm for many Americans even after the sinking of the USS Liberty.

Seems there should've been more of a public outcry over that than there was.

[Crockerland]

Given that, by your own standards (for the Jewish state, at least), supporting a country evidently means supporting it's worst aspects (in Israel's case, corrupt politicians selling out allied countries for monetary gain), being pro-America must be an ideology of being in favor of countless massacres, war rapes, and decades of imperialism and sponsorship of terrorism and corrupt dictatorships. Describing yourself as being in favor of any country by the standards you have for Israel is an atrocity.

On the issue of Israel, I am not pro-Israel, I am not pro-US, I am just pro-morality.

You can dress up with all the fancy rhetoric you want. At the end of the day the realistic result is your blind support for Israel allows them to do exceptionally treacherous things. They should be held to account and not defend on the basis of "pro-morality" or "only democracy in the ME". Who gives a shit? They are harmful to our strategic interests. They are a liability.

Wrong as usual, the country is not guilty by association with every corrupt politician it has, it is not a liability to the US because some people in positions of power are liabilities.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/10/Ad-Hominem-Guilt-by-Association

[The East Marches II]

You can dress up with all the fancy rhetoric you want. At the end of the day the realistic result is your blind support for Israel allows them to do exceptionally treacherous things. They should be held to account and not defend on the basis of "pro-morality" or "only democracy in the ME". Who gives a shit? They are harmful to our strategic interests. They are a liability.

Wrong as usual, the country is not guilty by association with every corrupt politician it has, it is not a liability to the US because some people in positions of power are liabilities.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/10/Ad-Hominem-Guilt-by-Association

Yes it is when that corrupt is very well documented and having occurred over a period of nearly 30 years now. It speaks to the rot within the Israeli system. They are a liability and untrustworthy. Why do you defend a strategic liability that gives us no benefit? Are you American or Israeli?

[Crockerland]

I do wonder why unquestioning support for Israel is still the norm for many Americans even after the sinking of the USS Liberty.

Seems there should've been more of a public outcry over that than there was.

It doesn't seem like that, at all. Many US servicemen have been killed by US allies and other US forces over the years, and the US military has killed many allied soldiers as well.
tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents

[The East Marches II]

I do wonder why unquestioning support for Israel is still the norm for many Americans even after the sinking of the USS Liberty.

Seems there should've been more of a public outcry over that than there was.

It doesn't seem like that, at all. Many US servicemen have been killed by US allies and other US forces over the years, and the US military has killed many allied soldiers as well.
tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents

Do we sell missile secrets to the Chinese to betray the guy that gives us billions in free shit and unconditional support? Not even close to the same you know it.

[Crockerland]

Wrong as usual, the country is not guilty by association with every corrupt politician it has, it is not a liability to the US because some people in positions of power are liabilities.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/10/Ad-Hominem-Guilt-by-Association

Yes it is when that corrupt is very well documented and having occurred over a period of nearly 30 years now. It speaks to the rot within the Israeli system. They are a liability and untrustworthy. Why do you defend a strategic liability that gives us no benefit? Are you American or Israeli?

It doesn't seem like that, at all. Many US servicemen have been killed by US allies and other US forces over the years, and the US military has killed many allied soldiers as well.
tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents

Do we sell missile secrets to the Chinese to betray the guy that gives us billions in free shit and unconditional support? Not even close to the same you know it.

Your hollow excuses for arguments consist of nothing but appeals to patriotism, attempts to blame an entire country for the actions of a handful of corrupt politicians, and asinine double standards for a single country.

[The East Marches II]

Yes it is when that corrupt is very well documented and having occurred over a period of nearly 30 years now. It speaks to the rot within the Israeli system. They are a liability and untrustworthy. Why do you defend a strategic liability that gives us no benefit? Are you American or Israeli?

Do we sell missile secrets to the Chinese to betray the guy that gives us billions in free shit and unconditional support? Not even close to the same you know it.

Your hollow excuses for arguments consist of nothing but appeals to patriotism, attempts to blame an entire country for the actions of a handful of corrupt politicians, and asinine double standards for a single country.

Handful of corrupt politicians

How do you think missile secrets get out? It is not a mere handful when its a consistent thing that occurs over 30 years. It is not a double standard to call "muh holocaust" as a bullshit excuse for treachery of the highest degree. I'll be sure to remember that patriotism line when I catch you discussing the thing with liberals.

[Crockerland]

Your hollow excuses for arguments consist of nothing but appeals to patriotism, attempts to blame an entire country for the actions of a handful of corrupt politicians, and asinine double standards for a single country.

Handful of corrupt politicians

How do you think missile secrets get out? It is not a mere handful when its a consistent thing that occurs over 30 years.

Yeah yeah, keep doubling down on the same fallacious shit, you're still wrong.

It is not a double standard to call "muh holocaust" as a bullshit excuse for treachery of the highest degree.

Who mentioned the holocaust?
oh, just you.

So I guess strawmanning can be added to the list of fallacies that form the entire basis of your position on the issue. You described no actual non-fallacious reasoning for your skewed opinions, nor applied any real debate skill to defend your position, you just spew out nonsense about how Israel as a whole is terrible and a liability because there are some corrupt politicians there that don't serve American interests, never apply that illogical standard to any other country, and occasionally screech something about how I am not a patriot or am not pro-America like some ultraconservative mccarthyist who thinks medicare is a form of communism. You don't even both trying to defend your positions or explain why you don't think they're fallacious, it's just the same shit over and over and over again. "they sold our secrets!" "they sold our secrets!" "they sold our secrets!", no matter how many times it is explained to you that the country is not responsible as a whole for the actions of every single citizen in it's government, or how many times it's pointed out to you that the US and plenty of other countries have corrupt politicians that do shitty things as well, it's always "they sold our secrets!", as if that's somehow an argument or a valid response to what's been said, it's like trying to argue with a wall.

[The East Marches II]

Yeah yeah, keep doubling down on the same fallacious shit, you're still wrong.

I have provided evidence that this is a consistent action of a supposedly allied nation. I'd like to know by what reasoning is this a "handful of corrupt"

It is not a double standard to call "muh holocaust" as a bullshit excuse for treachery of the highest degree.

Who mentioned the holocaust?
oh, just you.

So I guess strawmanning can be added to the list of fallacies that form the entire basis of your position on the issue. You described no actual non-fallacious reasoning for your skewed opinions, nor applied any real debate skill to defend your position, you just spew out nonsense about how Israel as a whole is terrible and a liability because there are some corrupt politicians there that don't serve American interests, never apply that illogical standard to any other country, and occasionally screech something about how I am not a patriot or am not pro-America like some ultraconservative mccarthyist who thinks medicare is a form of communism. You don't even both trying to defend your positions or explain why you don't think they're fallacious, it's just the same shit over and over and over again. "they sold our secrets!" "they sold our secrets!" "they sold our secrets!", no matter how many times it is explained to you that the country is not responsible as a whole for the actions of every single citizen in it's government, or how many times it's pointed out to you that the US and plenty of other countries have corrupt politicians that do shitty things as well, it's always "they sold our secrets!", as if that's somehow an argument or a valid response to what's been said, it's like trying to argue with a wall.[/quote]

Yes it is infact an arguement against considering them an ally. I do consider the European countries culpable for thier total lack of defense spending. You literally replied with

But only those dirty kikes' country should face a penalty for having corrupt officials *nod*

Any criticism of Israel clearly makes you a holocaust denying anti-semite who just has it out for them. The only one building strawman is yourself. Allies are responsible for the actions of their governments. If their government is out of control, we take action. We take action with the Norks, we take action with the Russians. What makes the Israelis so special as to be exempt from the same standard as everybody else? Really nothing.

[Thermodolia]

Israel is defending itself. Good for them.

This. Besides half of Europe is in Syria right now fighting. Are you saying that Israel a nation that borders Syria can't invade to protect itself but it's all fine for Europe to do so OP?

[Thermodolia]

Not only does the Israeli Airforce attack the Syrian Arab Army in palmyra while they are fighting ISIS but the Israeli border guard have opened their border to all injured Al Qeada (Al Nusra) fighters to be treated in the occupied Golan heights and then send them back into Syria to keep fighting the Syrian state.

If that isn't enough to think that Israel supports and sponsors terrorism in Syria and acting as a ISIS Airforce then i dont know what is.

The US and Europe do the exact same with the air support

[Thermodolia]

Corruption is only bad when the Jews do it.

Its bad when everybody does it. It is especially bad when that so called greatest ally repeatedly does it. Israel is a liability, we should be rid of it. They operate with impunity on that sort of thing because "muh holocaust". As if that excuses treacherous behavior.

I'm pretty we would do the same if 6 million Americans we killed and nobody gave a damn until it was too late. Oh wait we already do that, we just use 9/11 as the excuse

[Thermodolia]

Israel is the only democracy in the middle east that shares western values

Jordan more or less does, although their monarchy takes a more active role in governance than is normal in the west.

Dont forget Kuwait

[The East Marches II]

Its bad when everybody does it. It is especially bad when that so called greatest ally repeatedly does it. Israel is a liability, we should be rid of it. They operate with impunity on that sort of thing because "muh holocaust". As if that excuses treacherous behavior.

I'm pretty we would do the same if 6 million Americans we killed and nobody gave a damn until it was too late. Oh wait we already do that, we just use 9/11 as the excuse

"Muh 9/11" is just as garbage an excuse as "muh holocaust".

[Thermodolia]

I'm pretty we would do the same if 6 million Americans we killed and nobody gave a damn until it was too late. Oh wait we already do that, we just use 9/11 as the excuse

"Muh 9/11" is just as garbage an excuse as "muh holocaust".

At least your consistent

[G-Tech Corporation]

"Muh 9/11" is just as garbage an excuse as "muh holocaust".

At least your consistent

A consistently trash argument does not improve by virtue of constancy, unfortunately. If it did then Erdogan would be a good leader, the Crimea would be unequivocally Russian, global warming wouldn't exist, and the world's energy needs would be easily solvable by coal for the next ten millennia.