The Death of Free Speech in Europe

[The Empire of Pretantia]

We should liberate Europe.

I know, reality is painful to you guys. And you're almost as afraid of women with guns as ISIS. Should I have included a trigger warning for you?

That happens to be my fetish.

Mine too!

Yet they all were quick to hop on Clinton's bandwagon.

Clinton isn't left-wing, though.

She's in the American left, ergo left-wing.

[Neu Leonstein]

You mean the frustrated young men who want to be edgy and different and so decide to call for the heads of the bourgeoisie?

Well, yeah. The pool of raw material is the same, always has been throughout history: the unsuccessful or impatient young male. The language changes, but the basic underlying logic is always the same... overthrow the existing order of things in order to compensate for or distract from a failure to meet the expectations placed upon the young male by said order.

[Liriena]

...and your point is what, exactly?

My point is that it's a far left, feminist militia who is actually the one fighting (and winning) against the Islamist menace, not a bunch of alt-righters.

>feminism
>middle east

Oh god.

Please stop.

Actually, Amudarya is not wrong. I give you the Peshmerga women.

Not to be condescending or anything... but, perhaps, next time you want to act all smug and laugh at others' claims because they sound ridiculous, take the time to check if it's not just you being uninformed?

[Amudarya]

Europe has every right to regulate speech in the name of the greater good. Hate speech promotes societal dissonance.

This.

[Liriena]

Would you agree with hate speech laws targeting communists and those that support the former communist regimes in Central and Eastern Europe?

Still waiting for an answer.

I gave an answer. Look a few posts above.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Free speech does not mean anything and everything is allowed if it's "just an opinion".

Yeah it does.

[Amudarya]

We should liberate Europe.

That happens to be my fetish.

Mine too!

Clinton isn't left-wing, though.

She's in the American left, ergo left-wing.

Nope. She's a neoliberal Democrat, not a Leftist.

[Liriena]

If we were speaking of communists in general? No. Unlike white supremacism, nazism or radical Islamism, communism is awfully broad, and unless the communists in question were, say inciting violence or hatred towards a religious or ethnic group, or an entire gender or sexual orientation, or people of a specific national origin, or foreigners in general... Last I checked, hate crimes and hate speech has traditional referred to groups that communism as a whole doesn't really target, although some specific communist movements and regimes have. I am not aware of the definition of hate crime or hate speech ever including crimes committed against "the bourgeois" or incitement to kill "the capitalist pigs" (in order words, crime or speech targeting a socioeconomic class). If you are proposing that such an inclusion be made, we can talk about it.

More importantly, however, it has ocurred to me that your question was not phrased all that fairly, insofar as you've presented the issue as penalizing entire ideologies, which is not quite what most hate crime and hate speech legislation aims to do. Rather, such legislation tends to focus on the groups that the crime or speech targets, not the general worldview of the one targeting said groups. Granted, I personally have been speaking in terms of depriving extremists of the tools to radicalize vulnerable individuals online.

I would certainly advocate that promoting the destruction of certain socioeconomic classes ought to be considered hate speech as long as such laws exist.

You can certainly advocate for that, and as left-wing as I may be, that does not mean I'm keen on any talk about systematically exterminating a broad group of people. But as far as I can tell, socioeconomic class is not explicitly included in any definitions for hate crimes or hate speech.

[Neu Leonstein]

Yeah it does.

If it does, then free speech literally doesn't exist anywhere on earth. Certainly not in the US.

[Amudarya]

Yeah it does.

If it does, then free speech literally doesn't exist anywhere on earth. Certainly not in the US.

I made the same point pages ago, but free speech is just a dog whistle.

[Liriena]

If we were speaking of communists in general? No. Unlike white supremacism, nazism or radical Islamism, communism is awfully broad, and unless the communists in question were, say inciting violence or hatred towards a religious or ethnic group, or an entire gender or sexual orientation, or people of a specific national origin, or foreigners in general... Last I checked, hate crimes and hate speech has traditional referred to groups that communism as a whole doesn't really target, although some specific communist movements and regimes have. I am not aware of the definition of hate crime or hate speech ever including crimes committed against "the bourgeois" or incitement to kill "the capitalist pigs" (in order words, crime or speech targeting a socioeconomic class). If you are proposing that such an inclusion be made, we can talk about it.

More importantly, however, it has ocurred to me that your question was not phrased all that fairly, insofar as you've presented the issue as penalizing entire ideologies, which is not quite what most hate crime and hate speech legislation aims to do. Rather, such legislation tends to focus on the groups that the crime or speech targets, not the general worldview of the one targeting said groups. Granted, I personally have been speaking in terms of depriving extremists of the tools to radicalize vulnerable individuals online.

"Radical" Islamism is redundant. Islamism is a vile, radical ideology on its own.

That's your opinion, not an established fact. And furthermore it's the exact sort of simplistic and unhelpful opinion that plays a part in creating the sort of hostile environment in which vulnerable youth end up feeling drawn towards violent extremism.

So congrats, your edgy simplism will surely make the world a better place.

[Liriena]

Yep. And they recruit from the same pool of frustrated young men without much going for them. The same kind of person who is attracted to Islamism in one society is probably posting Pepe images on twitter in another.

You mean the frustrated young men who want to be edgy and different and so decide to call for the heads of the bourgeoisie?

DEFLECT! DEFLECT! DEFLECT!

I see y'all have attended classes at the Kellyanne Conway School of Balderdash.

[Liriena]

Clinton isn't left-wing, though.

Then what is she?

Certain NSGers begged the EC to crown her instead of trump.

A neoliberal.

[Liriena]

Clinton isn't left-wing, though.

She is liberal, though. "Left" vs "right" is a basic and outdated approach to politics that does not convey the whole truth. I only used the terms so I don't have to write fifty specific ideologies every damn time.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. It's not that you wrongfully characterized Hillary Clinton's ideological leanings, but you just felt too lazy to bother with accurately applying the basic concepts behind your argument.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

We should liberate Europe.

Mine too!

She's in the American left, ergo left-wing.

Nope. She's a neoliberal Democrat, not a Leftist.

Neoliberal democrats are left wing.

Yeah it does.

If it does, then free speech literally doesn't exist anywhere on earth. Certainly not in the US.

Free speech is the freedom to express your opinions and ideas. Recording child porn, inciting people to violence, and causing a panic are not free speech.

I would certainly advocate that promoting the destruction of certain socioeconomic classes ought to be considered hate speech as long as such laws exist.

You can certainly advocate for that, and as left-wing as I may be, that does not mean I'm keen on any talk about systematically exterminating a broad group of people. But as far as I can tell, socioeconomic class is not explicitly included in any definitions for hate crimes or hate speech.

It should though.

[The Wolven League]

"Radical" Islamism is redundant. Islamism is a vile, radical ideology on its own.

That's your opinion, not an established fact. And furthermore it's the exact sort of simplistic and unhelpful opinion that plays a part in creating the sort of hostile environment in which vulnerable youth end up feeling drawn towards violent extremism.

So congrats, your edgy simplism will surely make the world a better place.

Yeah, Islamist countries like Saudi Arabia, where women can't fucking operate a vehicle and gays are stoned to death, aren't radical, right?

[Amudarya]

Nope. She's a neoliberal Democrat, not a Leftist.

Neoliberal democrats are left wing.

No, they aren't.

[Liriena]

She's in the American left, ergo left-wing.

I'm sorry, but America doesn't get to be the special snowflake of political spectrums. We already tolerate your silliness towards the metric system.

[Proctopeo]

She's in the American left, ergo left-wing.

I'm sorry, but America doesn't get to be the special snowflake of political spectrums. We already tolerate your silliness towards the metric system.

You're not the boss of us. Now stand sixteen furlongs away from this line, please.

[Liriena]

Free speech does not mean anything and everything is allowed if it's "just an opinion".

Yeah it does.

Not really, though. Not even in the United States. For one, you can't get away with defamation by saying it was "just my opinion".

[Amudarya]

She's in the American left, ergo left-wing.

I'm sorry, but America doesn't get to be the special snowflake of political spectrums. We already tolerate your silliness towards the metric system.

Clinton is in the Blue quadrant of the political compass. Left Wingers are those in either the Red or the Green quadrants.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

She's in the American left, ergo left-wing.

I'm sorry, but America doesn't get to be the special snowflake of political spectrums. We already tolerate your silliness towards the metric system.

Other countries can do the same if they want. It's not like left-right politics are one-dimensional.

[Neo Balka]

I'm sorry, but America doesn't get to be the special snowflake of political spectrums. We already tolerate your silliness towards the metric system.

Clinton is in the Blue quadrant of the political compass. Left Wingers are those in either the Red or the Green quadrants.

Oh god.

Reds and greens. Once innocent colors of christmas now taken up by lunatics and sociopaths.

[Genivaria]

Neoliberal democrats are left wing.

No, they aren't.

Technically yes they are.
And I'm on the left.

[Amudarya]

No, they aren't.

Technically yes they are.
And I'm on the left.

Wikipedia defines neoliberalism in the following way:

Neoliberalism (neo-liberalism) refers primarily to the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism. These include extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society. These market-based ideas and the policies they inspired constitute a paradigm shift away from the post-war Keynesian consensus which lasted from 1945 to 1980.

That is the opposite of Leftist economic thinking.