The Death of Free Speech in Europe

[The Liberated Territories]

I'm so glad that Gen Z is ultra-conservative.

Praise be god almighty.

Sucks to be a millennial. College is a nightmare.

[Amudarya]

You know I feel sorry for you, and those like you, I really do. It must be dreadful to live with such crippling fear and insecurities. And I understand why people as sensitive and delicate as you feel triggered by the sight of foreigners, or women holding positions of power, or when people say mean things about your anime and video games.

But none of that gives you the right to advance a violent, hateful agenda, even if you try to cloak that under the label of free speech.

You're blowing shit out of proportion while you accuse another of doing the same.

Naw, that's what you alt-righters do. Trying to accuse the rest of the world of censoring you and being special snowflakes when really, it's you lot that are the ones who are so triggered by reality that you want to enact a regime of censorship, not just against words and images that assault your sense of entitlement, but against entire communities of people.

[PaNTuXIa]

You're blowing shit out of proportion while you accuse another of doing the same.

Naw, that's what you alt-righters do. Trying to accuse the rest of the world of censoring you and being special snowflakes when really, it's you lot that are the ones who are so triggered by reality that you want to enact a regime of censorship, not just against words and images that assault your sense of entitlement, but against entire communities of people.

I'm the only alt-righter here - Wolven and Balk aren't alt-right in the slightest.

And no, I don't want to censor free speech.

In fact, the vast majority of the alt-right don't want to censor the internet.

[Amudarya]

Funny how no one says Israel, Japan, China, or Korea need open borders, huh?

I'm against all borders, including ones in East Asia.

[PaNTuXIa]

Funny how no one says Israel, Japan, China, or Korea need open borders, huh?

I'm against all borders, including ones in East Asia.

what about the ones in the Middle East?

[Neo Balka]

Funny how no one says Israel, Japan, China, or Korea need open borders, huh?

I'm against all borders, including ones in East Asia.

So you want ethnicities, cultures and nations to be eroded away?

[Amudarya]

I don't think an ultra-leftist is under any authority to bemoan "hateful agendas" considering the rhetoric they use against the middle and upper classes and their historical treatment of those two groups.

Guilty as charged, and proud of it. Somebody earlier wanted to know the difference between a liberal and a leftist? The liberal will wring their hands but ultimately roll over for you. Leftists won't.

[Neo Balka]

I don't think an ultra-leftist is under any authority to bemoan "hateful agendas" considering the rhetoric they use against the middle and upper classes and their historical treatment of those two groups.

Guilty as charged, and proud of it. Somebody earlier wanted to know the difference between a liberal and a leftist? The liberal will wring their hands but ultimately roll over for you. Leftists won't.

No, youll just shoot me for being a class traitor.

[PaNTuXIa]

I don't think an ultra-leftist is under any authority to bemoan "hateful agendas" considering the rhetoric they use against the middle and upper classes and their historical treatment of those two groups.

Guilty as charged, and proud of it. Somebody earlier wanted to know the difference between a liberal and a leftist? The liberal will wring their hands but ultimately roll over for you. Leftists won't.

So it's okay to hate the upper-class, but not minorities?

[The Wolven League]

You're blowing shit out of proportion while you accuse another of doing the same.

Naw, that's what you alt-righters do. Trying to accuse the rest of the world of censoring you and being special snowflakes when really, it's you lot that are the ones who are so triggered by reality that you want to enact a regime of censorship, not just against words and images that assault your sense of entitlement, but against entire communities of people.

Mate, what the fuck are you talking about?

We criticize the arguments of SJWs saying stupid shit, like- I quote- "all white people are racist, all men are misogynistic", and you call us "ebil fascist censors!!!"

Give me a break.

[Napkiraly]

I don't think an ultra-leftist is under any authority to bemoan "hateful agendas" considering the rhetoric they use against the middle and upper classes and their historical treatment of those two groups.

Guilty as charged, and proud of it. Somebody earlier wanted to know the difference between a liberal and a leftist? The liberal will wring their hands but ultimately roll over for you. Leftists won't.

Leftists have constantly rolled over throughout history.

But yes, you are on essentially the same level as a number of alt-righters. You just have different targets is all.

[Liriena]

Go ahead and make that case in a court of law.

Even better: Since the OP's articles were about social media and moderation in social media, how about you report me to the mods for hate speech against Holocaust deniers? See if your accusation holds up under their scrutiny?


No, that's not my argument nor is it how hate speech regulations online work.

You said that the lies are part of a "wider discourse" aimed at encouraging hate crimes, and thus to believe the lie must be made illegal. That is your opinion of what the motivation behind some of the liars is, thus all of the people who believe and express this lie must be criminalized.

No, that's not my opinion. I think you misinterpreted me, which I can understand. Perhaps I did not explain myself properly.

My opinion is that Holocaust denial is almost always explicitly wielded by extremist individuals and movements as an argument to radicalize others. By not allowing Holocaust denial to spread through platforms like social media, you are depriving extremists from a recruitment tool. However, that does not mean that I completely disregard the importance of context and clear intent, or would not want websites' policies against hate speech to be enforced in a case-by-case basis, if possible. For one, I would not want Pewdiepie to have his channel deleted because of that one joke of his that backfired.

[Liriena]

They actually tend to mix better than free speech and 'muricans.

Oh man, that piece of useless dirt has better freedom of the press.

Is that why German cops are kicking down doors over facebook posts?

Quick,hide in the attic, the germans are getting their reichboner back.

Geesh, no need to lash out at the Germans like that.

[Amudarya]

I'm against all borders, including ones in East Asia.

what about the ones in the Middle East?

What part of "all" do you not understand?

So you want ethnicities, cultures and nations to be eroded away?

Ethnicities, cultures, nations - these things did not fall fully formed from the sky. They have evolved, changed, merged together over time. There is no ethnicity or culture or people around today that is not a hybrid of previously existing cultures and peoples. The idea of cultural "purity" is a harmful illusion. Culture is in a constant state of flux, and you can no more hold that flux back then you can stop the encroaching heat death of the universe.

[Napkiraly]

You said that the lies are part of a "wider discourse" aimed at encouraging hate crimes, and thus to believe the lie must be made illegal. That is your opinion of what the motivation behind some of the liars is, thus all of the people who believe and express this lie must be criminalized.

No, that's not my opinion. I think you misinterpreted me, which I can understand. Perhaps I did not explain myself properly.

My opinion is that Holocaust denial is almost always explicitly wielded by extremist individuals and movements as an argument to radicalize others. By not allowing Holocaust denial to spread through platforms like social media, you are depriving extremists from a recruitment tool. However, that does not mean that I completely disregard the importance of context and clear intent, or would not want websites' policies against hate speech to be enforced in a case-by-case basis, if possible. For one, I would not want Pewdiepie to have his channel deleted because of that one joke of his that backfired.

Would you agree with hate speech laws targeting communists and those that support the former communist regimes in Central and Eastern Europe?

[Neo Balka]

what about the ones in the Middle East?

What part of "all" do you not understand?

So you want ethnicities, cultures and nations to be eroded away?

Ethnicities, cultures, nations - these things did not fall fully formed from the sky. They have evolved, changed, merged together over time. There is no ethnicity or culture or people around today that is not a hybrid of previously existing cultures and peoples. The idea of cultural "purity" is a harmful illusion. Culture is in a constant state of flux, and you can no more hold that flux back then you can stop the encroaching heat death of the universe.

Cant wait to try the Halal Oktoberfest.

[The Wolven League]

I don't think an ultra-leftist is under any authority to bemoan "hateful agendas" considering the rhetoric they use against the middle and upper classes and their historical treatment of those two groups.

Guilty as charged, and proud of it. Somebody earlier wanted to know the difference between a liberal and a leftist? The liberal will wring their hands but ultimately roll over for you. Leftists won't.

Lenin and Mao killed the classes that opposed them, then made their friends and allies into an upper class equally, if not more, oppressive as the old.

You talk grand talks of a classless society through revolution, but all past revolutions have led to the same class system under a different name.

[The Liberated Territories]

You said that the lies are part of a "wider discourse" aimed at encouraging hate crimes, and thus to believe the lie must be made illegal. That is your opinion of what the motivation behind some of the liars is, thus all of the people who believe and express this lie must be criminalized.

No, that's not my opinion. I think you misinterpreted me, which I can understand. Perhaps I did not explain myself properly.

My opinion is that Holocaust denial is almost always explicitly wielded by extremist individuals and movements as an argument to radicalize others. By not allowing Holocaust denial to spread through platforms like social media, you are depriving extremists from a recruitment tool. However, that does not mean that I completely disregard the importance of context and clear intent, or would not want websites' policies against hate speech to be enforced in a case-by-case basis, if possible. For one, I would not want Pewdiepie to have his channel deleted because of that one joke of his that backfired.

Even if you believe this, it is never a good idea to let the government decide which speech is fine and which speech is heresy, but ultimately it ends up harming innocent people. If, for example, speech is fined, then the powers that be will use hate speech laws to increase their coffers or silence dissent.

[Liriena]

Lying about my beliefs to my face is very impolite. Also, blaming my support for something as harmless as the European Union coordinating with Facebook, Twitter and Microsoft to better enforce their rules against hate speech for the rise of right-wing populism is a gross exaggeration at best.

SO you like it when corporations and government team up to shit on others?

If corporations must exist for the forseable future, they are inevitably going to team up with governments now and then. At least in this case they are teaming up against radical Islamists and neo-nazis. Holding onto my ideals does not preclude approving of others' actions on a practical basis.

[Olivaero]

I'll take the freedom to not have my life ruined over a preventable illness because I can go to a dr as and when I choose over the right to say harmful things in the public sphere. Ideally I wouldn't have to choose of course, but since Americans are unfree in some very important ways and we Europeans are unfree in some less important ways I know which one I'd choose.

[Napkiraly]

Cultural purity is certainly an illusion but the idea that we must be completely open to any outside influence is also idiotic and dangerous.

[Liriena]

No, but Holocaust denialism, believing that members of the wrong ethnic or religious group should be confined, exterminated or deported, etc, are radical positions. Many people who hold such radical positions and seek to advance this agenda are trying to do so under the cover of "free speech".

I'm so sorry I actually give a fuck about my nation's identity and culture. I'm sorry I don't want foreigners that have been shown time and time again to commit more crime and rape to come to my country.

I'm sorry that you too have fallen prey to far right radicalization and played into the hands of Islamic extremists.

[Vassenor]

No, but Holocaust denialism, believing that members of the wrong ethnic or religious group should be confined, exterminated or deported, etc, are radical positions. Many people who hold such radical positions and seek to advance this agenda are trying to do so under the cover of "free speech".

I'm so sorry I actually give a fuck about my nation's identity and culture. I'm sorry I don't want foreigners that have been shown time and time again to commit more crime and rape to come to my country.

Well that sounds like something you can provide actual data for.

[Amudarya]

Cultural purity is certainly an illusion but the idea that we must be completely open to any outside influence is also idiotic and dangerous.

Yes, the exact opposite of one wrong idea is usually another wrong idea. Fortunately nobody in this thread is arguing that one should be completely open to everything.

[Proctopeo]

It's a real shame none of us in Europe can read this thread, or reply to it.

Yes, don't you know, the censorship there is as bad as China, according to the OP. You see, you Euros are under so much censorship, you don't even know you're being censored.

[strawmanning intensifies]

Well, Spangle my Banner...

Loaded question is loaded. Not interested.

All of this "free speech/censorship" blather is nothing but loaded questions. Coming from the same group of people who had collective meltdowns over the content of video game journalism and the cast of a Ghostbusters reboot.

The fact is the media is at this point saturated with people whining about the tyranny of political correctness, and it has been for decades now. The volume and tenor of those complaints has only increased in the last several years. That alone disproves the argument that free speech is somehow under attack.

The strawman is reaching critical mass! Reverse the polarity to the flux capacitors! Other techy-sounding stuff!