Bus With Anti-Transgender Message Banned

[Noraika]

Clearly a violation of the human decency of a particular non-destructive part of society and works for no other reason than to encourage non-acceptance of them, promotes delegitimization of legitimate identities, in a way that can disrupt these people's lives, cause problems with social cohesion, cause minority stress and feelings of exclusion, and imply to some that they are at the centre of some grand conspiracy (ie "Don't let them fool you"). On top of this it is purely inflammatory in its nature.

I have no problem with such speech being banned.

But block their freedom of speech is censorship, right?

It is. There's no problem with reasonable limitations being placed on civil liberties. In fact its directly given legal precedent in the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Absolute civil rights, like pretty much anything that are 'absolute, no exceptions' are a serious overlook in the possible negative outcomes that can come from it.

That's why I can't think of a country who takes the absolutist approach with civil rights like freedom of speech, although the U.S. gets a cookie for being close.

Limitations like those that ban hate speach, are acceptable limitations.

[Walrusvylon]

So you say puberty blockers have no harmful side effects? You couldn't be farther from the truth.

Lupron and Eligard, drugs used to prevent puberty in adolescents, have a vast array of harmful side effects.
http://www.rxlist.com/eligard-side-effe ... center.htm
http://www.rxlist.com/lupron-side-effec ... center.htm
These drugs are being unethically pushed on children to exploit them for money.

[The Serbian Empire]

So you say puberty blockers have no harmful side effects. You couldn't be farther from the truth.

Lupron and Eligard, drugs used to prevent puberty in adolescents, have a vast array of harmful side effects.
http://www.rxlist.com/eligard-side-effe ... center.htm
http://www.rxlist.com/lupron-side-effec ... center.htm
These drugs are being unethically pushed on children to exploit them for money.

If they were being pushed for monetary gain, wouldn't more eight year old girls be given the stuff due to menstruation?

As in the average age of menarche is 12.

[Walrusvylon]

But block their freedom of speech is censorship, right?

It is. There's no problem with reasonable limitations being placed on civil liberties. In fact its directly given legal precedent in the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Absolute civil rights, like pretty much anything that are 'absolute, no exceptions' are a serious overlook in the possible negative outcomes that can come from it.

That's why I can't think of a country who takes the absolutist approach with civil rights like freedom of speech, although the U.S. gets a cookie for being close.

Limitations like those that ban hate speach, are acceptable limitations.

Banning hate speech is censorship. That's something that fascist governments do. And yet, I am pretty sure that you despise fascism.

[Neutraligon]

So you say puberty blockers have no harmful side effects. You couldn't be farther from the truth.

Lupron and Eligard, drugs used to prevent puberty in adolescents, have a vast array of harmful side effects.
http://www.rxlist.com/eligard-side-effe ... center.htm
http://www.rxlist.com/lupron-side-effec ... center.htm
These drugs are being unethically pushed on children to exploit them for money.

If they were being pushed for monetary gain, wouldn't more eight year old girls be given the stuff due to menstruation?

As in the average age of menarche is 12.

Well, that and every drug has potential side effects, most of them serious.
http://www.rxlist.com/tylenol-side-effe ... center.htm

[Walrusvylon]

And now you all look silly for claiming that puberty blockers have, and I quote "minimal side effects".

[Neutraligon]

And now you all look silly for saying that puberty blockers have, and I quote "minimal side effects".

Like I said every drug has potential side effects, I notice the site did not list how common those side effects actually are, particularly in children when used to block puberty. So no I don't look silly, you however do because you assume that side-effects are common, and not preventable.

[The Serbian Empire]

If they were being pushed for monetary gain, wouldn't more eight year old girls be given the stuff due to menstruation?

As in the average age of menarche is 12.

Well, that and every drug has potential side effects, most of them serious.
http://www.rxlist.com/tylenol-side-effe ... center.htm

This is what I'm getting at. There's a massive untapped market for Lupron and what not yet it's mainly prescribed to trans kids for the obvious applications. Clearly the side effects are severe enough that the main use is for trans kids since the potential of severe depression and comorbid conditions is more dire than the med's side effects.

[Neutraligon]

Well, that and every drug has potential side effects, most of them serious.
http://www.rxlist.com/tylenol-side-effe ... center.htm

This is what I'm getting at. There's a massive untapped market for Lupron and what not yet it's mainly prescribed to trans kids for the obvious applications. Clearly the side effects are severe enough that the main use is for trans kids since the potential of severe depression and comorbid conditions is more dire than the med's side effects.

It also has another use in preventing premature puberty I believe which probably be the closest comparable case to being used on trans kids,

[Mechanisburg]

So you say puberty blockers have no harmful side effects? You couldn't be farther from the truth.

Lupron and Eligard, drugs used to prevent puberty in adolescents, have a vast array of harmful side effects.
http://www.rxlist.com/eligard-side-effe ... center.htm
http://www.rxlist.com/lupron-side-effec ... center.htm
These drugs are being unethically pushed on children to exploit them for money.

Every single drug on this planet has side effects, and a vast array of harmful side effects to boot. There are some drugs that list as side effect "skin sloughing off your body", and "sudden death" - but those drugs are still in use. This because either those side effects are very rare (and very harmful side effects are in fact very rare) or the ailment they are used of warrants a lil' bit of skin sloughing.

The common side effects of lupron are very mild and well known (also, common side effects of having low levels of sexual hormones after an initial flash whilst the body adjusts). They are also similar to the common side effects of a lot of other drugs.

Uncommon and rare side effects are just that - uncommon and rare, and won't happen during an usual course of treatment, but they can be managed by the doctor. When I was talking about side effects - when most people were talking about side effects - it wasn't about side effects of the drugs proper, which are par for the course, but side effects of suppression of sexual hormones for a long period of time. Luckily, upthread, I posted sources that said these side effects are non-existent (effects on brain), easily recovered from (low bone density) and minimal (there is a slight height disadvantage, but proportions are kept).

[Mechanisburg]

This is what I'm getting at. There's a massive untapped market for Lupron and what not yet it's mainly prescribed to trans kids for the obvious applications. Clearly the side effects are severe enough that the main use is for trans kids since the potential of severe depression and comorbid conditions is more dire than the med's side effects.

It also has another use in preventing premature puberty I believe which probably be the closest comparable case to being used on trans kids,

Manasco, 1988 was about exactly that.

Manasco, P. K., Pescovitz, O. H., Feuillan, P. P., Hench, K. D., Barnes, K. M., Jones, J., ..., & Cutler, G. B. Jr. (1988, January). Resumption of Puberty After Long Term Luteinizing Hormone-Releasing Hormone Agonist Treatment of Central Precocious Puberty. https://dx.doi.org/10.1210/jcem-67-2-368

We conclude that gonadotropin and sex steroid secretion and the clinical progression through puberty appear to resume normally after discontinuation of long term LHRHa treatment of central precocious puberty.

[Walrusvylon]

And now you all look silly for saying that puberty blockers have, and I quote "minimal side effects".

Like I said every drug has potential side effects, I notice the site did not list how common those side effects actually are, particularly in children when used to block puberty. So no I don't look silly, you however do because you assume that side-effects are common, and not preventable.

You guys claimed that puberty blockers have minimal side effects. I demonstrated that was false.

[Mechanisburg]

It is. There's no problem with reasonable limitations being placed on civil liberties. In fact its directly given legal precedent in the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Absolute civil rights, like pretty much anything that are 'absolute, no exceptions' are a serious overlook in the possible negative outcomes that can come from it.

That's why I can't think of a country who takes the absolutist approach with civil rights like freedom of speech, although the U.S. gets a cookie for being close.

Limitations like those that ban hate speach, are acceptable limitations.

Banning hate speech is censorship. That's something that fascist governments do. And yet, I am pretty sure that you despise fascism.

Banning hate speech is a small limitation of freedom of speech to avoid bigger limitations of other, more tangible, freedoms. Because speech informs opinion and opinion informs action, and words have consequences. I am fine with censoring people who have nothing to add to the discussion than their hatred or bile.

[Neutraligon]

So you say puberty blockers have no harmful side effects? You couldn't be farther from the truth.

Lupron and Eligard, drugs used to prevent puberty in adolescents, have a vast array of harmful side effects.
http://www.rxlist.com/eligard-side-effe ... center.htm
http://www.rxlist.com/lupron-side-effec ... center.htm
These drugs are being unethically pushed on children to exploit them for money.

Every single drug on this planet has side effects, and a vast array of harmful side effects to boot. There are some drugs that list as side effect "skin sloughing off your body", and "sudden death" - but those drugs are still in use. This because either those side effects are very rare (and very harmful side effects are in fact very rare) or the ailment they are used of warrants a lil' bit of skin sloughing.

The common side effects of lupron are very mild and well known (also, common side effects of having low levels of sexual hormones after an initial flash whilst the body adjusts). They are also similar to the common side effects of a lot of other drugs.

Uncommon and rare side effects are just that - uncommon and rare, and won't happen during an usual course of treatment, but they can be managed by the doctor. When I was talking about side effects - when most people were talking about side effects - it wasn't about side effects of the drugs proper, which are par for the course, but side effects of suppression of sexual hormones for a long period of time. Luckily, upthread, I posted sources that said these side effects are non-existent (effects on brain), easily recovered from (low bone density) and minimal (there is a slight height disadvantage, but proportions are kept).

I believe there medicines that can be used to increase growth, though I am not sure how effective those are, nor do I know the problems they may present.

[Neutraligon]

Like I said every drug has potential side effects, I notice the site did not list how common those side effects actually are, particularly in children when used to block puberty. So no I don't look silly, you however do because you assume that side-effects are common, and not preventable.

You guys claimed that puberty blockers have minimal side effects. I demonstrated that was false.

Show that those effects are common. And it seems to me the claim was in essence that long term side effects are uncommon.

[Mechanisburg]

Like I said every drug has potential side effects, I notice the site did not list how common those side effects actually are, particularly in children when used to block puberty. So no I don't look silly, you however do because you assume that side-effects are common, and not preventable.

You guys claimed that puberty blockers have minimal side effects. I demonstrated that was false.

You demonstrated no such thing. You demonstrated drugs have side effects, which was a given. Uncommon and rare side effects are just that, so the point is moot.

I claimed, supported by Manasco, 1988 and a few other studies I should pull up but that you can find upthread, that puberty suppression has minimal side effects on bone density, intellectual development and height, and that it is a safe treatment, and that it is an effective treatment.

[Walrusvylon]

Banning hate speech is censorship. That's something that fascist governments do. And yet, I am pretty sure that you despise fascism.

Banning hate speech is a small limitation of freedom of speech to avoid bigger limitations of other, more tangible, freedoms. Because speech informs opinion and opinion informs action, and words have consequences. I am fine with censoring people who have nothing to add to the discussion than their hatred or bile.

So you support the suppression of people you don't agree with? You know who else supported the suppression of political opponents?
This guy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
Just saying.

[Neutraligon]

Banning hate speech is a small limitation of freedom of speech to avoid bigger limitations of other, more tangible, freedoms. Because speech informs opinion and opinion informs action, and words have consequences. I am fine with censoring people who have nothing to add to the discussion than their hatred or bile.

So you support the suppression of people you don't agree with? You know who else supported the suppression of political opponents?

The same person/people who also drinks/drank water. Although in this case I do not agree with Mecha (OK if I call you that?)

[Walrusvylon]

So you support the suppression of people you don't agree with? You know who else supported the suppression of political opponents?

The same person/people who also drinks/drank water. Although in this case I do not agree with Mecha (OK if I call you that?)

Finally something I can agree with you on, Batman!

[Mechanisburg]

Every single drug on this planet has side effects, and a vast array of harmful side effects to boot. There are some drugs that list as side effect "skin sloughing off your body", and "sudden death" - but those drugs are still in use. This because either those side effects are very rare (and very harmful side effects are in fact very rare) or the ailment they are used of warrants a lil' bit of skin sloughing.

The common side effects of lupron are very mild and well known (also, common side effects of having low levels of sexual hormones after an initial flash whilst the body adjusts). They are also similar to the common side effects of a lot of other drugs.

Uncommon and rare side effects are just that - uncommon and rare, and won't happen during an usual course of treatment, but they can be managed by the doctor. When I was talking about side effects - when most people were talking about side effects - it wasn't about side effects of the drugs proper, which are par for the course, but side effects of suppression of sexual hormones for a long period of time. Luckily, upthread, I posted sources that said these side effects are non-existent (effects on brain), easily recovered from (low bone density) and minimal (there is a slight height disadvantage, but proportions are kept).

I believe there medicines that can be used to increase growth, though I am not sure how effective those are, nor do I know the problems they may present.

Human Growth Hormone? It is usually used to treat dwarfism, but there's really no need for it. When HRT proper will be started at 16 the children so treated will be yes a little smaller than usual, but being one inch or two shorter than average is not that big of a problem to warrant subjecting them to the exquisite torture that is the wrong puberty.

We invented footstools to reach high shelves. We still haven't invented a pill that will immediately cure depression, anxiety, PTSD and reshape the bone structure of the patient to effectively fix their dysporia.

I'll also point out there are very few people dropping out of puberty suppression - "No adolescent withdrew from puberty suppression, and all started cross-sex hormone treatment, the first step of actual gender reassignment," as per de Vries, 2011.

[Unrepentant Piracy]

I support euthanasia. And if a suicidal person is really determined to put an end to their life, ultimately it is their life they want to end. It's best if they have proper access to human-killing material, lest they make a mess of it and more painful than it should be.

Suicide is unacceptable. A person should not have a right to hurt themselves, they should be aided so they can live more functional and healthy lives. This is not compassion, it is apathy toward an epidemic in our society (suicide) and you are helping to push it by stating such.

Who owns my life: me, or society?

[Walrusvylon]

Suicide is unacceptable. A person should not have a right to hurt themselves, they should be aided so they can live more functional and healthy lives. This is not compassion, it is apathy toward an epidemic in our society (suicide) and you are helping to push it by stating such.

Who owns my life: me, or society?

Society is somewhat responsible for your well-being.

[Neutraligon]

I believe there medicines that can be used to increase growth, though I am not sure how effective those are, nor do I know the problems they may present.

Human Growth Hormone? It is usually used to treat dwarfism, but there's really no need for it. When HRT proper will be started at 16 the children so treated will be yes a little smaller than usual, but being one inch or two shorter than average is not that big of a problem to warrant subjecting them to the exquisite torture that is the wrong puberty.

We invented footstools to reach high shelves. We still haven't invented a pill that will immediately cure depression, anxiety, PTSD and reshape the bone structure of the patient to effectively fix their dysporia.

I'll also point out there are very few people dropping out of puberty suppression - "No adolescent withdrew from puberty suppression, and all started cross-sex hormone treatment, the first step of actual gender reassignment," as per de Vries, 2011.

I wasn't saying that it was necessary, only that the particular side effect of being slightly shorter does have a possible solution, assuming of course the side effects of the medicines that are pretty minimal.

[Mechanisburg]

Banning hate speech is a small limitation of freedom of speech to avoid bigger limitations of other, more tangible, freedoms. Because speech informs opinion and opinion informs action, and words have consequences. I am fine with censoring people who have nothing to add to the discussion than their hatred or bile.

So you support the suppression of people you don't agree with? You know who else supported the suppression of political opponents?
This guy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
Just saying.

If, to avoid people dying or suffering, it'll be required of me to become the worst monster that has ever walked the planet, that's what I will do. I will make even Hitler look like a playful puppy.

Luckily, suppressing hate speech is enshrined in practically every single legislation, like libel and slander laws. And the only real opposition comes from people who think free speech gives them a free pass to say whatever they want whilst being exempt from criticism or the consequences of the speech itself.

[Walrusvylon]

So you support the suppression of people you don't agree with? You know who else supported the suppression of political opponents?
This guy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
Just saying.

If, to avoid people dying or suffering, it'll be required of me to become the worst monster that has ever walked the planet, that's what I will do. I will make even Hitler look like a playful puppy.

Luckily, suppressing hate speech is enshrined in practically every single legislation, like libel and slander laws. And the only real opposition comes from people who think free speech gives them a free pass to say whatever they want whilst being exempt from criticism or the consequences of the speech itself.

Do you consider yourself a facsist?