Bus With Anti-Transgender Message Banned

[Walrusvylon]

If puberty is a medical decision, by your faulty logic, everyone should be put on puberty blockers, not just trans kids. But that doesn't seem like a good idea, does it?

Taking puberty blockers is in itself a medical decision, and a poor one at that.

You have not supported your opinion "puberty blockers are a poor medical decision" yet.

Oh, but I have.
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/06/17166/

[Walrusvylon]

A lot of people seem to think inaction in preventing something is not the same in action to bring that about. They are equivalent: the event happened, either because it wasn't stopped or because it was brought about willingly.

Also, when talking about outliers, whose puberty has the potential to do them enormous amounts of harm, puberty becomes a medical decision.

Exactly. The fact of the matter is, going though puberty has the potential to do enormous amounts of mental harm to those who experience gender dysphoria. They may be too young to decide to go through the puberty of the opposite sex, but putting that decision off until they are older allows them the time they need to come to the decision while preventing the harm of going through the wrong puberty. I fail to see why a young person should not be put on preventative drugs to prevent future mental harm.

Because growing up somehow causes "enourmous amounts of harm".

[Neutraligon]

A lot of people seem to think inaction in preventing something is not the same in action to bring that about. They are equivalent: the event happened, either because it wasn't stopped or because it was brought about willingly.

Also, when talking about outliers, whose puberty has the potential to do them enormous amounts of harm, puberty becomes a medical decision.

So you're saying that growing up causes enourmous amounts of harm to trans people?

No we are saying that the physical changes that puberty brings about, the physical changes that help cause dyshoria and are today incredibly difficult if not impossible to change, can cause incredible mental harm, along the same lines as depression. Putting off puberty until they are old enough to decide which puberty they actually go through allows them the chance to never experience those changes, and thus never experience that harm, while still allowing those who eventually stop feeling the dysphoria to go through the puberty of their sex.

[Neutraligon]

You have not supported your opinion "puberty blockers are a poor medical decision" yet.

Oh, but I have.
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/06/17166/

I believe that article was already debunked.

[Walrusvylon]

So you're saying that growing up causes enourmous amounts of harm to trans people?

No we are saying that the physical changes that puberty brings about, the physical changes that help cause dyshoria and are today incredibly difficult if not impossible to change, can cause incredible mental harm, along the same lines as depression. Putting off puberty until they are old enough to decide which puberty they actually go through allows them the chance to never experience those changes, and thus never experience that harm, while still allowing those who eventually stop feeling the dysphoria to go through the puberty of their sex.

You constantly point out that I don't provide citations, and yet this doesn't have a single citation.

[Mechanisburg]

You have not supported your opinion "puberty blockers are a poor medical decision" yet.

Oh, but I have.
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/06/17166/

No, you didn't.

You posted that link thrice: the first time I pointed out, without even opening it, that de Cuypere, 2006 shows SRS greatly lowers suicide rates. The second time I was irritated by your insistence, opened the link, found a load of steaming bullcrap and addressed it, point by point. This in addition to one of my precedent posts, that showed exactly how much puberty suppression improves well-being without involving undue risks.

You have not supported your opinion "puberty blockers are a poor medical decision" yet.

[Mechanisburg]

No we are saying that the physical changes that puberty brings about, the physical changes that help cause dyshoria and are today incredibly difficult if not impossible to change, can cause incredible mental harm, along the same lines as depression. Putting off puberty until they are old enough to decide which puberty they actually go through allows them the chance to never experience those changes, and thus never experience that harm, while still allowing those who eventually stop feeling the dysphoria to go through the puberty of their sex.

You constantly point out that I don't provide citations, and yet this doesn't have a single citation.

Don't worry, I have plenty of those. Also, this is the document containing the WPATH Standards of Care, version 7 - you'll find plenty of material supporting those theses there.

[Neutraligon]

You constantly point out that I don't provide citations, and yet this doesn't have a single citation.

Don't worry, I have plenty of those. Also, this is the document containing the WPATH Standards of Care, version 7 - you'll find plenty of material supporting those theses there.

Thank you, It's funny since I believe you had already linked showing that puberty blockers helped those who where actually trans (ie those who actually continued to feel gender dysphoria into adulthood). Oh right, you did...here viewtopic.php?p=31239916#p31239916

[Community Values]

Exactly. The fact of the matter is, going though puberty has the potential to do enormous amounts of mental harm to those who experience gender dysphoria. They may be too young to decide to go through the puberty of the opposite sex, but putting that decision off until they are older allows them the time they need to come to the decision while preventing the harm of going through the wrong puberty. I fail to see why a young person should not be put on preventative drugs to prevent future mental harm.

Because growing up somehow causes "enourmous amounts of harm".

Have you not grown up before? The whole idea of growing up is learning the reality of the world, and that it's actually shit. Which can do quite a bit of damage to people. But that's off-topic.

As for my opinion on OP, free speech and all that, I don't particularly see what's wrong with a person riding around in a bus that has controversial opinions on it.

[Mechanisburg]

Don't worry, I have plenty of those. Also, this is the document containing the WPATH Standards of Care, version 7 - you'll find plenty of material supporting those theses there.

Thank you, It's funny since I believe you had already linked showing that puberty blockers helped those who where actually trans (ie those who actually continued to feel gender dysphoria into adulthood).

I did that a few pages back, and I'm pretty sure I linked the same sources to the same person in another thread. I'm getting extremely irritated at the asymmetry - I have to limit myself to what is true, and proper research takes time, but there are no limits to contrarian bullshit and it can be spewed out at a rate that would make most chemical rockets pale.

[Neutraligon]

Because growing up somehow causes "enourmous amounts of harm".

Have you not grown up before? The whole idea of growing up is learning the reality of the world, and that it's actually shit. Which can do quite a bit of damage to people. But that's on-topic.

As for my opinion on OP, free speech and all that, I don't particularly see what's wrong with a person riding around in a bus that has controversial opinions on it.

Shrug as to that, apparently Spain has a law against advertising on private buses, so the advertisement itself was illegal, even without the "issue" of the content.

Thank you, It's funny since I believe you had already linked showing that puberty blockers helped those who where actually trans (ie those who actually continued to feel gender dysphoria into adulthood).

I did that a few pages back, and I'm pretty sure I linked the same sources to the same person in another thread. I'm getting extremely irritated at the asymmetry - I have to limit myself to what is true, and proper research takes time, but there are no limits to contrarian bullshit and it can be spewed out at a rate that would make most chemical rockets pale.

Yep, I went looking in the thread, I knew it was recent, and edited my post to include it. Considering how recent it was, that kinda suggests the person we are responding to didn't bother to read your post. I didn't source anything in my posts since I remembered you had already sourced in yours.

[Walrusvylon]

Have you not grown up before? The whole idea of growing up is learning the reality of the world, and that it's actually shit. Which can do quite a bit of damage to people. But that's on-topic.

As for my opinion on OP, free speech and all that, I don't particularly see what's wrong with a person riding around in a bus that has controversial opinions on it.

Shrug as to that, apparently Spain has a law against advertising on private buses, so the advertisement itself was illegal, even without the "issue" of the content.

I did that a few pages back, and I'm pretty sure I linked the same sources to the same person in another thread. I'm getting extremely irritated at the asymmetry - I have to limit myself to what is true, and proper research takes time, but there are no limits to contrarian bullshit and it can be spewed out at a rate that would make most chemical rockets pale.

Yep, I went looking in the thread, I knew it was recent, and edited my post to include it. Considering how recent it was, that kinda suggests the person we are responding to didn't bother to read your post. I didn't source anything in my posts since I remembered you had already sourced in yours.

Should I have to sift through the pages in this thread to find your sources?

[Mechanisburg]

Yep, I went looking in the thread, I knew it was recent, and edited my post to include it. Considering how recent it was, that kinda suggests the person we are responding to didn't bother to read your post. I didn't source anything in my posts since I remembered you had already sourced in yours.

I think I'll make a dispatch about the whole gender dysphoria does not exist/shouldn't be treated/babies shouldn't be touched thing and just link to that one. I'm getting tired with having to repeat myself times and times again, and CTRL-C CTRL-V a link would be much faster. It's not like they bother with reading what I write in any case.

[Mechanisburg]

Shrug as to that, apparently Spain has a law against advertising on private buses, so the advertisement itself was illegal, even without the "issue" of the content.

Yep, I went looking in the thread, I knew it was recent, and edited my post to include it. Considering how recent it was, that kinda suggests the person we are responding to didn't bother to read your post. I didn't source anything in my posts since I remembered you had already sourced in yours.

Should I have to sift through the pages in this thread to find your sources?

I linked them in my last two answers. The links point to my posts, containing links to my sources.

[Neutraligon]

Shrug as to that, apparently Spain has a law against advertising on private buses, so the advertisement itself was illegal, even without the "issue" of the content.

Yep, I went looking in the thread, I knew it was recent, and edited my post to include it. Considering how recent it was, that kinda suggests the person we are responding to didn't bother to read your post. I didn't source anything in my posts since I remembered you had already sourced in yours.

Should I have to sift through the pages in this thread to find your sources?

I linked the source in my edit, and it was only a page or so back. I would think you would be able to remember something you read a couple of pages ago...assuming you read the post.

[Walrusvylon]

Yep, I went looking in the thread, I knew it was recent, and edited my post to include it. Considering how recent it was, that kinda suggests the person we are responding to didn't bother to read your post. I didn't source anything in my posts since I remembered you had already sourced in yours.

I think I'll make a dispatch about the whole gender dysphoria does not exist/shouldn't be treated/babies shouldn't be touched thing and just link to that one. I'm getting tired with having to repeat myself times and times again, and CTRL-C CTRL-V a link would be much faster. It's not like they bother with reading what I write in any case.

When did I say gender dysphoria doesn't exist? Strawman much?
I shall make a dispatch that proves the opposite.

[Neutraligon]

Yep, I went looking in the thread, I knew it was recent, and edited my post to include it. Considering how recent it was, that kinda suggests the person we are responding to didn't bother to read your post. I didn't source anything in my posts since I remembered you had already sourced in yours.

I think I'll make a dispatch about the whole gender dysphoria does not exist/shouldn't be treated/babies shouldn't be touched thing and just link to that one. I'm getting tired with having to repeat myself times and times again, and CTRL-C CTRL-V a link would be much faster. It's not like they bother with reading what I write in any case.

I however and very thankful for the list of sources. I mean I have already found most of those, but I keep having to look them up over and over again.

[Mechanisburg]

I think I'll make a dispatch about the whole gender dysphoria does not exist/shouldn't be treated/babies shouldn't be touched thing and just link to that one. I'm getting tired with having to repeat myself times and times again, and CTRL-C CTRL-V a link would be much faster. It's not like they bother with reading what I write in any case.

When did I say gender dysphoria doesn't exist? Strawman much?
I shall make a dispatch that proves the opposite.

Please do, I'm feeling a bit down lately and I could do with a good laugh.

[Neutraligon]

I think I'll make a dispatch about the whole gender dysphoria does not exist/shouldn't be treated/babies shouldn't be touched thing and just link to that one. I'm getting tired with having to repeat myself times and times again, and CTRL-C CTRL-V a link would be much faster. It's not like they bother with reading what I write in any case.

I shall make a dispatch that proves the opposite.

Why not try and reply to the post first, with actual studies and the such.

[Mechanisburg]

I think I'll make a dispatch about the whole gender dysphoria does not exist/shouldn't be treated/babies shouldn't be touched thing and just link to that one. I'm getting tired with having to repeat myself times and times again, and CTRL-C CTRL-V a link would be much faster. It's not like they bother with reading what I write in any case.

I however and very thankful for the list of sources. I mean I have already found most of those, but I keep having to look them up over and over again.

If you want the list of sources, right now it's a 160 kiB file containing excerpts and relevant notes on more than 130 studies, about four days of work on PubMed, addressing a variety of GRSM myths, in markdown format. I could send it to you - would a telegram work with so big a file?

[Noraika]

Clearly a violation of the human decency of a particular non-destructive part of society and works for no other reason than to encourage non-acceptance of them, promotes delegitimization of legitimate identities, in a way that can disrupt these people's lives, cause problems with social cohesion, cause minority stress and feelings of exclusion, and imply to some that they are at the centre of some grand conspiracy (ie "Don't let them fool you"). On top of this it is purely inflammatory in its nature.

I have no problem with such speech being banned.

[Neutraligon]

I however and very thankful for the list of sources. I mean I have already found most of those, but I keep having to look them up over and over again.

If you want the list of sources, right now it's a 160 kiB file containing excerpts and relevant notes on more than 130 studies, about four days of work on PubMed, addressing a variety of GRSM myths, in markdown format. I could send it to you - would a telegram work with so big a file?

Not sure, maybe. Let me empty my tg first.

[Mechanisburg]

If you want the list of sources, right now it's a 160 kiB file containing excerpts and relevant notes on more than 130 studies, about four days of work on PubMed, addressing a variety of GRSM myths, in markdown format. I could send it to you - would a telegram work with so big a file?

Not sure, maybe. Let me empty my tg first.

I think I'll post it on some pastebin. After breaking a few pastebins (it is about 194 kiB in size), my list is finally up on MarkdownShare: https://markdownshare.com/view/c4f5ab7b-3a1d-4f17-820f-8be3d478abd2. Enjoy.

Edit: I went over it once more, and, while there are some links to non peer-reviewed sources, most of the 169 studies linked can be found by DOI or direct link. Full-text access shouldn't be too hard to anyone with the required know-how, but the relevant excerpts are provided. Some studies are just interesting and relate only tangentially to GRSM issues, but they highlight the fact biology is not cut-and-dry (two or three case reports of pregnancy in 46,XY individuals are listed towards the end).

[Great Minarchistan]

Clearly a violation of the human decency of a particular non-destructive part of society and works for no other reason than to encourage non-acceptance of them, promotes delegitimization of legitimate identities, in a way that can disrupt these people's lives, cause problems with social cohesion, cause minority stress and feelings of exclusion, and imply to some that they are at the centre of some grand conspiracy (ie "Don't let them fool you"). On top of this it is purely inflammatory in its nature.

I have no problem with such speech being banned.

But block their freedom of speech is censorship, right?

[Neutraligon]

Clearly a violation of the human decency of a particular non-destructive part of society and works for no other reason than to encourage non-acceptance of them, promotes delegitimization of legitimate identities, in a way that can disrupt these people's lives, cause problems with social cohesion, cause minority stress and feelings of exclusion, and imply to some that they are at the centre of some grand conspiracy (ie "Don't let them fool you"). On top of this it is purely inflammatory in its nature.

I have no problem with such speech being banned.

But block their freedom of speech is censorship, right?

Depends, in this case there is a general law against advertising on buses, so not really. There are other places they can most certainly advertise should they want to, their church for instance.