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Production of Solar Panels release Potent Greenhouse Gas.

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United Terran Colonies
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Production of Solar Panels release Potent Greenhouse Gas.

Postby United Terran Colonies » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:37 am

So, in essence the production of Solar Panels gives the by-product of nitrogen trifluoride which is a very potent greenhouse gas. However, the solar panels offset the greenhouse gas after 3-4 months according to the article below.

Feel free to discuss the effects of greenhouses gasses or anything about renewable/nuclear energy in this thread too.

From this article

US emissions of a greenhouse gas thousands of times more potent than carbon dioxide have expanded tenfold over the past two-and-a-half decades, according to fresh government data.

And one reason — wait for it — is America's increasing reliance on solar power.

The gas, nitrogen trifluoride, or NF3, is a key chemical agent used to manufacture certain types of photovoltaic cells for solar panels, as well as semiconductors and LCD flat screens.

NF3 is produced in minuscule quantities compared to carbon dioxide and now adds only a wafer-thin margin to America's total greenhouse gas emissions, while carbon dioxide makes up 82 percent and methane nearly another 10 percent. But researchers warn NF3 is dangerous due to its devilish efficiency in trapping energy, and long atmospheric lifespan of up to 740 years.

NF3 is thought to be 17,200 times more potent than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas, according to the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

"By itself, NF3 is not going to create a climate problem," said Dr. Michael Prather, a professor of earth system science at the University of California, Irvine, who has tracked nitrogen trifluoride emissions. "But everything adds up. Everybody should be paying attention to the pieces that all add up."

The 1,057 percent increase in US annual emissions of NF3 from 1990 to 2015 compares to an increase of 5.6 percent in carbon dioxide emissions, according to EPA data in a recently-published draft of a new report, Inventory of U.S. Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Sinks: 1990-2015. The report said overall emissions fell 2.2 percent in 2015 as the country continued to swap coal for natural gas and a warmer winter reduced demand for heating fuel.

To be sure, it's easier to achieve impressive-looking growth rates from a low starting point.

As of 2011, total NF3 emissions equalled only 0.06 percent of the amount of greenhouse gas emissions contributed by CO2 using an apples-to-apples comparison, according to a study led by researcher and University of Edinburgh climate specialist Dr. Tim Arnold, then with the Scripps Institution of Oceanography.

But both production and industrial use of NF3 has soared since 1990, and analysts project continued expansion over the coming decade amid strong demand for solar electricity, computers, smartphones and televisions. The NF3 market is expected to rise 13 percent every year and reach $1.2 billion by 2020, according to Hexa Research, a California-based research and consulting firm.

Meanwhile, the US market for solar power nearly doubled in 2016, according to a report by GTM Research and the Solar Energy Industries Association.

Environmentalists are quick to say solar panels still make sense, despite the associated NF3 discharge.

"The impact of NF3 as a global warming gas is big on a per-molecule basis, but the benefits of carbon-free energy from solar panels swamp the negative impacts due to NF3 emissions," said Tim Donaghy, a senior research specialist for Greenpeace.

"Lifecycle analyses of solar photovoltaic manufacturing show that the emissions of NF3 are offset within the first one-to-four months of the solar panel's life," Donaghy said, citing a 2010 study.

Carbon dioxide accounted fro the overwhelming amount of total U.S. greenhouse gas emissions in 2015, measured in million metric tons of carbon dioxide equivalent.
Image via U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

NF3 is essentially a cleaning agent that can be broken down into fluorine plasma to clear away excess silicon from production chambers. It is stable and transportable, cleans faster than other available options, and most of it is eliminated during use.

But a small percentage leaks into the atmosphere. The question researchers have asked in recent years is exactly how much gets leaked.

"People are doing a better job of leaking less, but it's still a fair amount, considering production is going way up," said Dr. Prather. "The fraction that gets leaked seems to be declining a bit, but it's not declining fast enough."

NF3 gained popularity as a substitute for even more harmful global warming gases that were used in the same types of manufacturing. That's why the country's top producer of NF3, a company known as Air Products and Chemicals Inc., received an award from the EPA in 2002 for its role in helping to safeguard the climate. A company spokesperson for Air Products didn't respond to requests for comment.

The good news is that despite increased chemical production and use, EPA figures suggest NF3 emissions in the United States — which are calculated based on data reported by the semiconductor industry — may have plateaued in recent years.

The bad news is, those numbers might be low.

In 2008, a team of researchers released a study comparing atmospheric levels of NF3 against the amount that industrial players reported they had emitted.

The air samples revealed the presence four-and-a-half times more NF3 in the atmosphere than expected given the amount of emissions reported by industry, according to the lead author of the study, Dr. Ray Weiss, a geochemistry professor at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography.

"In the end, the climate only cares about what you actually emit, not what you report," Dr. Weiss said.

Asked whether the most recent US NF3 emissions numbers from the EPA should be considered accurate, Dr. Weiss said, "It's a really hard question to answer. There's a lot of guesswork going into it. But it is plausible to think emissions have flat-lined, partly because most of the manufacturing is not in our country."

He added, "The big question is: What's going on in Asia?"

Almost half of NF3 demand now comes from Asian manufacturers, according to Hexa Research.

Yet Dr. Weiss said he sees reason for optimism.

"The industry has done a good job of responding to environmental concerns," he said. "The amount of NF3 that is used has risen exponentially. But they've also managed to use it more efficiently and to cut leaks."

The opportunity represented by NF3, according to Dr. Weiss, is that it represents "low-hanging fruit" for environmentalists looking for ways to reduce global greenhouse gas emissions, and flummoxed by the difficulty of limiting carbon dioxide.

"These really potent gases are a really good place to start, because you get a lot of good bang for your buck," he said.


Opinion: we need to fix this as soon as possible before this potent greenhouse gas gets emitted more and more. Probably research a good alternative with less dangerous byproducts and prohibit the production of these, by then, older solar panels.
Last edited by United Terran Colonies on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:12 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:41 am

Obviously this should, ideally, be removed from the equation, but I wonder what the net effect is.

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Postby United Terran Colonies » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:42 am

Alvecia wrote:Obviously this should, ideally, be removed from the equation, but I wonder what the net effect is.

From the article:

NF3 is thought to be 17,200 times more potent than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas, according to the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
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Postby Proctopeo » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:44 am

Nuclear is the way to go. Reactors are space-efficient, after all.
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:45 am

United Terran Colonies wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Obviously this should, ideally, be removed from the equation, but I wonder what the net effect is.

From the article:

NF3 is thought to be 17,200 times more potent than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas, according to the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

Well, yes, but that's not as bad if it's being produced in 34,400 fewer amounts, was my point.
Last edited by Alvecia on Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby United Terran Colonies » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:46 am

Alvecia wrote:
United Terran Colonies wrote:From the article:


Well, yes, but that's not as bad if it's being produced in 34,400 fewer amounts, was my point.

That is true, but if the rise to solar panels and flat screens will increase, then more and more of this gas will be released.
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:49 am

United Terran Colonies wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Well, yes, but that's not as bad if it's being produced in 34,400 fewer amounts, was my point.

That is true, but if the rise to solar panels and flat screens will increase, then more and more of this gas will be released.

And I agree that it should be removed or minimised if possible.
But if these solar panels are replacing fossil power, then the net production of harmful gases may actually be reduced.
Last edited by Alvecia on Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Equalsun Empire » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:54 am

I do not see a significant problem here. According to the article that you have sourced, it continues to have a negligible effect on the atmosphere compared to carbon sources. While it would be perfect if we could figure how to remove nitrogen triflouride from the equation, until then we should continue the transition to solar energy. As for saying we should switch to nuclear power because of this, nuclear power is both expensive and dangerous. If you're scared of gas molecules with a less effect on the environment than coal power, you should be pretty concerned about radioactive waste.
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Postby Hirota » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:56 am

Edit: No idea how this comment got into this thread, I was posting in the Dyson sphere thread. Sorry!
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Postby United Terran Colonies » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:04 am

Alvecia wrote:
United Terran Colonies wrote:That is true, but if the rise to solar panels and flat screens will increase, then more and more of this gas will be released.

And I agree that it should be removed or minimised if possible.
But if these solar panels are replacing fossil power, then the net production of harmful gases may actually be reduced.

Solar power currently covers 1% of global energy output

Assuming we keep building solar panels with said material, and we want to aim for a 40% global output based on solar power, then we have to multiply the 2011 statistic of 0,06% by 40. So, 2.4% of greenhouse gasses will be NF3.

According to this 76% of all greenhouse gasses was Carbon Dioxide. 65% of which is due to fossil fuel and other industrial processes.

The 2,4% over a 17,200 times more potent gas speaks for itself.

I think we should research a quick alternative building procedure.

Equalsun Empire wrote:I do not see a significant problem here. According to the article that you have sourced, it continues to have a negligible effect on the atmosphere compared to carbon sources. While it would be perfect if we could figure how to remove nitrogen triflouride from the equation, until then we should continue the transition to solar energy. As for saying we should switch to nuclear power because of this, nuclear power is both expensive and dangerous. If you're scared of gas molecules with a less effect on the environment than coal power, you should be pretty concerned about radioactive waste.

Radioactive waste is a problem, but I am really concerned by NF3 yes.
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:11 am

United Terran Colonies wrote:
Alvecia wrote:And I agree that it should be removed or minimised if possible.
But if these solar panels are replacing fossil power, then the net production of harmful gases may actually be reduced.

Solar power currently covers 1% of global energy output

Assuming we keep building solar panels with said material, and we want to aim for a 40% global output based on solar power, then we have to multiply the 2011 statistic of 0,06% by 40. So, 2.4% of greenhouse gasses will be NF3.

According to this 76% of all greenhouse gasses was Carbon Dioxide. 65% of which is due to fossil fuel and other industrial processes.

The 2,4% over a 17,200 times more potent gas speaks for itself.

I think we should research a quick alternative building procedure.

I'm glad you did the math.

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Postby United Terran Colonies » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:12 am

Alvecia wrote:
United Terran Colonies wrote:Solar power currently covers 1% of global energy output

Assuming we keep building solar panels with said material, and we want to aim for a 40% global output based on solar power, then we have to multiply the 2011 statistic of 0,06% by 40. So, 2.4% of greenhouse gasses will be NF3.

According to this 76% of all greenhouse gasses was Carbon Dioxide. 65% of which is due to fossil fuel and other industrial processes.

The 2,4% over a 17,200 times more potent gas speaks for itself.

I think we should research a quick alternative building procedure.

I'm glad you did the math.

You're welcome. :hug:
Last edited by United Terran Colonies on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pope Joan » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:12 am

Ban solar power!

Move On is all invested in that stuff; I would love to see their expressions.

I went to one of their meetings, and when they found out I could not get them grants for their pet (for-profit) solar projects, they gave me the cold shoulder
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Postby San Marlindo » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:21 am

Pope Joan wrote:I went to one of their meetings, and when they found out I could not get them grants for their pet (for-profit) solar projects, they gave me the cold shoulder


I've been to meetings like that before, too. Sounds really familiar.

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Postby United Terran Colonies » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:22 am

Pope Joan wrote:Ban solar power!

Move On is all invested in that stuff; I would love to see their expressions.

I went to one of their meetings, and when they found out I could not get them grants for their pet (for-profit) solar projects, they gave me the cold shoulder

Do tell me more about this mystical occult group called Move On.
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Postby Calladan » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:44 am

United Terran Colonies wrote:So, in essence the production of Solar Panels gives the by-product of nitrogen trifluoride which is a very potent greenhouse gas.

From this article

US emissions of a greenhouse gas thousands of times more potent than carbon dioxide have expanded tenfold over the past two-and-a-half decades, according to fresh government data.

And one reason — wait for it — is America's increasing reliance on solar power.

The gas, nitrogen trifluoride, or NF3, is a key chemical agent used to manufacture certain types of photovoltaic cells for solar panels, as well as semiconductors and LCD flat screens.

NF3 is produced in minuscule quantities compared to carbon dioxide and now adds only a wafer-thin margin to America's total greenhouse gas emissions, while carbon dioxide makes up 82 percent and methane nearly another 10 percent. But researchers warn NF3 is dangerous due to its devilish efficiency in trapping energy, and long atmospheric lifespan of up to 740 years.

NF3 is thought to be 17,200 times more potent than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas, according to the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

"By itself, NF3 is not going to create a climate problem," said Dr. Michael Prather, a professor of earth system science at the University of California, Irvine, who has tracked nitrogen trifluoride emissions. "But everything adds up. Everybody should be paying attention to the pieces that all add up."

The 1,057 percent increase in US annual emissions of NF3 from 1990 to 2015 compares to an increase of 5.6 percent in carbon dioxide emissions, according to EPA data in a recently-published draft of a new report, Inventory of U.S. Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Sinks: 1990-2015. The report said overall emissions fell 2.2 percent in 2015 as the country continued to swap coal for natural gas and a warmer winter reduced demand for heating fuel.

To be sure, it's easier to achieve impressive-looking growth rates from a low starting point.

As of 2011, total NF3 emissions equalled only 0.06 percent of the amount of greenhouse gas emissions contributed by CO2 using an apples-to-apples comparison, according to a study led by researcher and University of Edinburgh climate specialist Dr. Tim Arnold, then with the Scripps Institution of Oceanography.

But both production and industrial use of NF3 has soared since 1990, and analysts project continued expansion over the coming decade amid strong demand for solar electricity, computers, smartphones and televisions. The NF3 market is expected to rise 13 percent every year and reach $1.2 billion by 2020, according to Hexa Research, a California-based research and consulting firm.

Meanwhile, the US market for solar power nearly doubled in 2016, according to a report by GTM Research and the Solar Energy Industries Association.

Environmentalists are quick to say solar panels still make sense, despite the associated NF3 discharge.

"The impact of NF3 as a global warming gas is big on a per-molecule basis, but the benefits of carbon-free energy from solar panels swamp the negative impacts due to NF3 emissions," said Tim Donaghy, a senior research specialist for Greenpeace.

"Lifecycle analyses of solar photovoltaic manufacturing show that the emissions of NF3 are offset within the first one-to-four months of the solar panel's life," Donaghy said, citing a 2010 study.

Carbon dioxide accounted fro the overwhelming amount of total U.S. greenhouse gas emissions in 2015, measured in million metric tons of carbon dioxide equivalent.
Image via U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

NF3 is essentially a cleaning agent that can be broken down into fluorine plasma to clear away excess silicon from production chambers. It is stable and transportable, cleans faster than other available options, and most of it is eliminated during use.

But a small percentage leaks into the atmosphere. The question researchers have asked in recent years is exactly how much gets leaked.

"People are doing a better job of leaking less, but it's still a fair amount, considering production is going way up," said Dr. Prather. "The fraction that gets leaked seems to be declining a bit, but it's not declining fast enough."

NF3 gained popularity as a substitute for even more harmful global warming gases that were used in the same types of manufacturing. That's why the country's top producer of NF3, a company known as Air Products and Chemicals Inc., received an award from the EPA in 2002 for its role in helping to safeguard the climate. A company spokesperson for Air Products didn't respond to requests for comment.

The good news is that despite increased chemical production and use, EPA figures suggest NF3 emissions in the United States — which are calculated based on data reported by the semiconductor industry — may have plateaued in recent years.

The bad news is, those numbers might be low.

In 2008, a team of researchers released a study comparing atmospheric levels of NF3 against the amount that industrial players reported they had emitted.

The air samples revealed the presence four-and-a-half times more NF3 in the atmosphere than expected given the amount of emissions reported by industry, according to the lead author of the study, Dr. Ray Weiss, a geochemistry professor at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography.

"In the end, the climate only cares about what you actually emit, not what you report," Dr. Weiss said.

Asked whether the most recent US NF3 emissions numbers from the EPA should be considered accurate, Dr. Weiss said, "It's a really hard question to answer. There's a lot of guesswork going into it. But it is plausible to think emissions have flat-lined, partly because most of the manufacturing is not in our country."

He added, "The big question is: What's going on in Asia?"

Almost half of NF3 demand now comes from Asian manufacturers, according to Hexa Research.

Yet Dr. Weiss said he sees reason for optimism.

"The industry has done a good job of responding to environmental concerns," he said. "The amount of NF3 that is used has risen exponentially. But they've also managed to use it more efficiently and to cut leaks."

The opportunity represented by NF3, according to Dr. Weiss, is that it represents "low-hanging fruit" for environmentalists looking for ways to reduce global greenhouse gas emissions, and flummoxed by the difficulty of limiting carbon dioxide.

"These really potent gases are a really good place to start, because you get a lot of good bang for your buck," he said.


Opinion: we need to fix this as soon as possible before this potent greenhouse gas gets emitted more and more. Probably research a good alternative with less dangerous byproducts and prohibit the production of these, by then, older solar panels. And build more nuclear reactors.


Hold on. Just by reading that article it seems that NF3 is not going to kill us, and is not even doing that much damage. There are lots of "thought to be's" and "has the potential to be" and "could be" and so on, but the quote from the Greenpeace guy seems to suggest that even with NF3 doing what it is doing, it is still better than not using it and sticking with carbon based crap.

And however much people want to defend nuclear power, the truth is it is DANGEROUS. If the current benefits of solar power production "swamp the negative impacts due to NF3 emissions" then I say continue with that while researching a better way to do it. Because however much you want to say nuclear power is good and safe, it isn't. You have to deal with the radioactive material, and you have to deal with the fact you are essentially running a massive bomb in the middle of an urban area that you pretty much pray is not going to explode every day until you decommission it.

Building more bombs to power our cities is not the answer. And I am not certain why people think it is.
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Postby Gages Icelandic Army » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:48 am

Nuclear energy is less hazardous than solar power and more economically viable and long term than coal, gas, and oil.
So let's do that.

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Postby Neutraligon » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:48 am

Calladan wrote:
United Terran Colonies wrote:So, in essence the production of Solar Panels gives the by-product of nitrogen trifluoride which is a very potent greenhouse gas.

From this article



Opinion: we need to fix this as soon as possible before this potent greenhouse gas gets emitted more and more. Probably research a good alternative with less dangerous byproducts and prohibit the production of these, by then, older solar panels. And build more nuclear reactors.


Hold on. Just by reading that article it seems that NF3 is not going to kill us, and is not even doing that much damage. There are lots of "thought to be's" and "has the potential to be" and "could be" and so on, but the quote from the Greenpeace guy seems to suggest that even with NF3 doing what it is doing, it is still better than not using it and sticking with carbon based crap.

And however much people want to defend nuclear power, the truth is it is DANGEROUS. If the current benefits of solar power production "swamp the negative impacts due to NF3 emissions" then I say continue with that while researching a better way to do it. Because however much you want to say nuclear power is good and safe, it isn't. You have to deal with the radioactive material, and you have to deal with the fact you are essentially running a massive bomb in the middle of an urban area that you pretty much pray is not going to explode every day until you decommission it.

Building more bombs to power our cities is not the answer. And I am not certain why people think it is.


The part about the bomb is not an accurate description of nuclear power plants. They are engineered to ensure that they withstand both human error and natural disasters. No they are not a bomb you are praying do not go off.
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Gages Icelandic Army
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Postby Gages Icelandic Army » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:50 am

The latest advancements in nuclear energy (IFRs) are very safe. The only reason nuclear meltdowns happen is because of a failure in the cooling system. However, like a closed circuit, if the cooling system fails the entire reactor shuts down.

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Postby Ifreann » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:51 am

Good thing coal is clean now.
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Postby Equalsun Empire » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:00 am

Calladan wrote:
United Terran Colonies wrote:So, in essence the production of Solar Panels gives the by-product of nitrogen trifluoride which is a very potent greenhouse gas.

From this article



Opinion: we need to fix this as soon as possible before this potent greenhouse gas gets emitted more and more. Probably research a good alternative with less dangerous byproducts and prohibit the production of these, by then, older solar panels. And build more nuclear reactors.


Hold on. Just by reading that article it seems that NF3 is not going to kill us, and is not even doing that much damage. There are lots of "thought to be's" and "has the potential to be" and "could be" and so on, but the quote from the Greenpeace guy seems to suggest that even with NF3 doing what it is doing, it is still better than not using it and sticking with carbon based crap.

And however much people want to defend nuclear power, the truth is it is DANGEROUS. If the current benefits of solar power production "swamp the negative impacts due to NF3 emissions" then I say continue with that while researching a better way to do it. Because however much you want to say nuclear power is good and safe, it isn't. You have to deal with the radioactive material, and you have to deal with the fact you are essentially running a massive bomb in the middle of an urban area that you pretty much pray is not going to explode every day until you decommission it.

Building more bombs to power our cities is not the answer. And I am not certain why people think it is.

Okay, let's get one thing straight- nuclear power plants are not nuclear bombs. While they do produce radioactive waste, they are not capable of exploding under normal circumstances. Even Fukushima only leaked radiation when hit by a tsunami. To get the conditions for an actual explosion you need Chernobyl levels of mismanagement, and under those conditions you get a conventional explosion followed by the fallout of a nuclear catastrophe. Please don't go planting images of mushroom clouds in people's heads.
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Other than that, I agree with you, as I have already said. I would also like to add that the numbers the OP's using do not quite support his point- they factor in the emissions from production of every smartphone, television, and computer in existence and blame them all upon solar panel production. In order to effectively curtail emissions we can't even just focus on solar panels- we must also improve the entirety of the world's technology production. To add to that, even parts of the article that they didn't quote alleviate concerns.

""Lifecycle analyses of solar photovoltaic manufacturing show that the emissions of NF3 are offset within the first one-to-four months of the solar panel's life," Donaghy said, citing a 2010 study."

"NF3 gained popularity as a substitute for even more harmful global warming gases that were used in the same types of manufacturing. That's why the country's top producer of NF3, a company known as Air Products and Chemicals Inc., received an award from the EPA in 2002 for its role in helping to safeguard the climate. A company spokesperson for Air Products didn't respond to requests for comment."

"The industry has done a good job of responding to environmental concerns," he said. "The amount of NF3 that is used has risen exponentially. But they've also managed to use it more efficiently and to cut leaks."
Last edited by Equalsun Empire on Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Uxupox » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:09 am

Very interesting.
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Postby Devernia » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:12 am

Image

Stale meme, I know, but why not nuclear and solar? I think they're both good enough.
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Postby UCE Watchdog of the Puppets » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:16 am

NF3 is essentially a cleaning agent that can be broken down into fluorine plasma to clear away excess silicon from production chambers. It is stable and transportable, cleans faster than other available options, and most of it is eliminated during use.

Is there a cleaning agent suitable for use in solar panel factories which cleans more than half as fast and doesn't absorb heat like nitrogen trifluoride?
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Postby USS Monitor » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:18 am

United Terran Colonies wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Obviously this should, ideally, be removed from the equation, but I wonder what the net effect is.

From the article:

NF3 is thought to be 17,200 times more potent than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas, according to the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.


That's not what they asked about. This is:


"Lifecycle analyses of solar photovoltaic manufacturing show that the emissions of NF3 are offset within the first one-to-four months of the solar panel's life," Donaghy said, citing a 2010 study.
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