Trump Reverses The Transgender Bathroom Directive

[Sanctissima]

That's different.

Cancer can actually be cured. Gender dysphoria cannot. It is nigh impossible to cure that which is an inherent structural anomaly in the brain.

Gender dysphoria can be cured effectively by transitioning to bring secondary and/or primary sexual characteristics in line with what the brain expects. Gender identity cannot be cured, because gender identity is no disease.

No, it cannot. Gender dysphoria and gender identity are, in all practicality. one and the same. Nothing short of literally changing the chromosomes in a person's body would actually cure gender dysphoria.

Swapping out a vagina for a phallus, or vice versa, can certainly help, but it does not by any means cure the underlying fact that a person's neurology and their genetic make-up do not align.

[Slopuba]

The disabled cannot contribute to the same extent as the non-disabled, and those who commit suicide cannot contribute at all (which is precisely my point).

Stephen Hawking has arguably contributed more to society than the majority of abled people. And if you're not around to claim state-sponsored services, it's not an issue that you're not helping sponsor them.

Incidentally, if I were to commit suicide, I would also not contribute anymore. Funny that you think it's only my problem when I talked about it.

https://youtu.be/XfcC6FYyL4U

Don't commit suicide. If I think about commiting suicide then I think about the talks everyone will have about me. That means everyone will say, I knew he would do it. Then I go on to prove everyone wrong.

[Sanctissima]

I wouldn't want to tax the people simply so I can get surgery, I'd rather work to pay it off myself so I'm not a burden to other people. What should be taxed for is research for better mental health system to make sure people with gender dysphoria don't kill themselves. I have depression, and I'm still better off than a lot of other trans people, unfortunately. It's the dysphoria and the social stigma, made worse by the idiotic stereotypical Tumblr users who think it's a trend. We're not oppressed, nor should we be treated as a special class, but I wouldn't underestimate transphobia, it is still a problem.

Thank you.

Finally, someone sensible.

[The Holy Empire of the Spaghetti Monster]

Gender dysphoria can be cured effectively by transitioning to bring secondary and/or primary sexual characteristics in line with what the brain expects. Gender identity cannot be cured, because gender identity is no disease.

No, it cannot. Gender dysphoria and gender identity are, in all practicality. one and the same. Nothing short of literally changing the chromosomes in a person's body would actually cure gender dysphoria.

Swapping out a vagina for a phallus, or vice versa, can certainly help, but it does not by any means cure the underlying fact that a person's neurology and their genetic make-up do not align.

Actually, given that they are now in a body that fits their neurology, I believe it does cure it...

[Sanctissima]

The disabled cannot contribute to the same extent as the non-disabled, and those who commit suicide cannot contribute at all (which is precisely my point).

Stephen Hawking has arguably contributed more to society than the majority of abled people. And if you're not around to claim state-sponsored services, it's not an issue that you're not helping sponsor them.

Incidentally, if I were to commit suicide, I would also not contribute anymore. Funny that you think it's only my problem when I talked about it.

Hawking is a very rare exception. I might as well bring up the fact that most transgender people don't try to commit suicide. They're irrelevant facts to the point of discussion.

If you commit suicide after going through public school and taking benefit of many state-run services, before contributing to the state in any meaningful way, you are inherently representing a net loss to the state. If you cut off a limb purposefully and become disabled, you are both draining resources from state-funded healthcare and contributing at a lower level (because like it or not most disabled people are not Stephen Hawking).

[Mechanisburg]

How compassionate.

Says the Commie.

But really, the surgical and hormonal treatments required to transition cost a shit ton of money. It is not an expense the state should be required to pay.

False. Hormone treatment costs about... lessee, €1/50 mg cyproterone + €0.1/2 mg estradiol valerate per diem. Let's say average doses are 100 mg cyproterone acetate + 6 mg estradiol valerate: that's €2.3 per day, AKA €840 per year, at retail price. Let's assume HRT goes on for 50 years, and let's add €15'000 for surgery ($15'000 is what Chettawut asks for) - hell, let's double that to include stuff I haven't considered like blood tests and revisions. Total cost: €72'000 at retail prices, for a treatment lasting a lifetime (less than €1'500 per year).

Compare and contrast what St. Peter, 2012 found out when investigating a case of a self-castration: $14'923 vs $4'000 for an elective orchidectomy. That's 3.73x the cost for the health service, with a much lower quality of life for the patient due to scarring, blood loss, and nerve damage.

How much does treatment for cancer costs? I heard figures in the millions. How much for transplants and immunosuppressants? How much does diabetes cost, or heart disease? HIV? STDs?

Edit: I went over my calculations, and they are flawed. No anti-androgens are needed after SRS, so if we assume SRS is done 5 years after the start of HRT cost goes down to €110 yearly, AKA 5 x €840 + 45 x €110 + €30'000 = €39'150, or less than €800 per year.

Edit Mk. II: fixed rul. 'cuz that's how I rull.

[Sotral]

Gender dysphoria can be cured effectively by transitioning to bring secondary and/or primary sexual characteristics in line with what the brain expects. Gender identity cannot be cured, because gender identity is no disease.

No, it cannot. Gender dysphoria and gender identity are, in all practicality. one and the same. Nothing short of literally changing the chromosomes in a person's body would actually cure gender dysphoria.

Swapping out a vagina for a phallus, or vice versa, can certainly help, but it does not by any means cure the underlying fact that a person's neurology and their genetic make-up do not align.

I have yet to find a single trans person who feels dysphoric over chromosomes, and I talk to many trans people.

Gender dysphoria and gender identity are not the same, as evidenced by the fact that you have a gender identity and no dysphoria. Furthermore, if I were to transition both medically and socially to a point where I felt no dysphoria, my gender identity would remain.

They're not the same, no matter how closely they're related.

[Sanctissima]

No, it cannot. Gender dysphoria and gender identity are, in all practicality. one and the same. Nothing short of literally changing the chromosomes in a person's body would actually cure gender dysphoria.

Swapping out a vagina for a phallus, or vice versa, can certainly help, but it does not by any means cure the underlying fact that a person's neurology and their genetic make-up do not align.

Actually, given that they are now in a body that fits their neurology, I believe it does cure it...

Only on the surface.

Hormone therapy still needs to be done regularly for quite some time after the fact, and even if the surgery itself is done perfectly (which it often isn't), there's still the fact that you'd have the genetic make-up of the opposite sex regardless of the surgery.

[Mechanisburg]

Gender dysphoria can be cured effectively by transitioning to bring secondary and/or primary sexual characteristics in line with what the brain expects. Gender identity cannot be cured, because gender identity is no disease.

No, it cannot. Gender dysphoria and gender identity are, in all practicality. one and the same. Nothing short of literally changing the chromosomes in a person's body would actually cure gender dysphoria.

Swapping out a vagina for a phallus, or vice versa, can certainly help, but it does not by any means cure the underlying fact that a person's neurology and their genetic make-up do not align.

No, it does. Gender dysphoria and gender identity are not one and the same. Because everyone has a gender identity, including cis people, but gender dsyphoria only arises when this identity does not match one's own body configuration.

Gender dysphoria is dysphoria over secondary and/or primary sexual characteristics, and chromosomes are completely irrelevant to this. Swapping a vagina for a phallus or viceversa can cure gender dysphoria, because gender dysphoria is not defined as identity not matching one's own genetic makeup, the genetic makeup being irrelevant.

[Mallorea and Riva]

News flash, it's not the 19th century anymore

Diddly-darn, what in the Queen's name are you squabbabeling about, Man-Woman? Go back to the circus!

You need a refresher on human biology.


...what

Ma'am, I don't think that you can take a piss without a penis. If this is biologically incorrect then I will have to take a look later.

Alot of places don't have those as seperate, actually

What?! Are you meaning to say that you people in the States don't provide bathrooms for handicapped people? What for fucking degenerates are you if it is more important that people that feel uncomfortable with their penis get their own bathroom opposed to people that can't walk and have no way to take a shit on their own?!

No, I was an orphan, along with the rest of my family. Of my best freinds, most grew up in foster homes, or to single parents.

Are you black?

Actually what you said was:


It's biologically incorrect.

Also: I wonder how ancient Chinese eunuchs took a piss... hmmmmmm /s

If you would just trace it back a bit maybe you can see the point where this became about males, you sexist. NOT EVERY PROBLEM IS ABOUT WOMEN, YOU MISOGYNISTIC PIG.

And castration doesn't mean that there is no penis. The penis is intact and can still urinate.

Kinda sick that all this debatting came from Bathrooms.

(BTW. HAPPY 100th SHITPOST PARTY! WOOHHOOOOOOOOOOOO)

*** Warned 1 Day Ban for flaming, baiting, and picspam. ***

FYI, most US bathrooms have a large stall with handrails for handicapped people. It's just not in a separate bathroom.

[Galloism]

That's different.

It really isn't.

All mental conditions, including love of broccoli, are physical conditions at some resolution.

Cancer can actually be cured. Gender dysphoria cannot.

This is false - gender dysphoria can be cured by removing the dysphoria.

It is nigh impossible to cure that which is an inherent structural anomaly in the brain.

Exactly - which is why dysphoria is more easily cured by fixing the other side of the equation.

We all know 5 != 7.

But 5, in this scenario, can't be moved. Therefore, to make the equation equal, we subtract 2 from 7. Then 5 = 5. Dysphoria cured. We don't just throw our hands up in the air and say "well, if we can't move the 5, then it's just not equal and math is evil".

[Galloism]

Actually, given that they are now in a body that fits their neurology, I believe it does cure it...

Only on the surface.

Hormone therapy still needs to be done regularly for quite some time after the fact, and even if the surgery itself is done perfectly (which it often isn't), there's still the fact that you'd have the genetic make-up of the opposite sex regardless of the surgery.

Some people are born with the genetic make-up of the opposite sex.

[Sanctissima]

Says the Commie.

But really, the surgical and hormonal treatments required to transition cost a shit ton of money. It is not an expense the state should be required to pay.

False. Hormone treatment costs about... lessee, €1/50 mg cyproterone + €0.1/2 mg estradiol valerate per diem. Let's say average doses are 100 mg cyproterone acetate + 6 mg estradiol valerate: that's €2.3 per day, AKA €840 per year, at retail price. Let's assume HRT goes on for 50 years, and let's add €15'000 for surgery ($15'000 is what Chettawut asks for) - hell, let's double that to include stuff I haven't considered like blood tests and revisions. Total cost: €72'000 at retail prices, for a treatment lasting a lifetime (less than €1'500 per year).

Compare and contrast what [rul=https://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02621.x]St. Peter, 2012[/url] found out when investigating a case of a self-castration: $14'923 vs $4'000 for an elective orchidectomy. That's 3.73x the cost for the health service, with a much lower quality of life for the patient due to scarring, blood loss, and nerve damage.

How much does treatment for cancer costs? I heard figures in the millions. How much for transplants and immunosuppressants? How much does diabetes cost, or heart disease? HIV? STDs?

Edit: I went over my calculations, and they are flawed. No anti-androgens are needed after SRS, so if we assume SRS is done 5 years after the start of HRT cost goes down to €110 yearly, AKA 5 x €840 + 45 x €110 + €30'000 = €39'150, or less than €800 per year.

That's... considerably less than I thought it was.

Huh.

[Slopuba]

Diddly-darn, what in the Queen's name are you squabbabeling about, Man-Woman? Go back to the circus!

Ma'am, I don't think that you can take a piss without a penis. If this is biologically incorrect then I will have to take a look later.

What?! Are you meaning to say that you people in the States don't provide bathrooms for handicapped people? What for fucking degenerates are you if it is more important that people that feel uncomfortable with their penis get their own bathroom opposed to people that can't walk and have no way to take a shit on their own?!

Are you black?

If you would just trace it back a bit maybe you can see the point where this became about males, you sexist. NOT EVERY PROBLEM IS ABOUT WOMEN, YOU MISOGYNISTIC PIG.

And castration doesn't mean that there is no penis. The penis is intact and can still urinate.

Kinda sick that all this debatting came from Bathrooms.

(BTW. HAPPY 100th SHITPOST PARTY! WOOHHOOOOOOOOOOOO)

*** Warned for flaming, baiting, and picspam. ***

FYI, most US bathrooms have a large stall with handrails for handicapped people. It's just not in a separate bathroom.

Hey, could we discuss that thoroughly, Mr. Moderator. I don't think that this warning is appropriate and way exaggerated.

[Thermodolia]

Actually, this isn't true.

While 4.6 of Americans have attempted suicide, 41% of trans people have.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/ ... -Final.pdf

I mean that in the sense that there's no chance of Sotral suddenly dropping dead because of their gender dysphoria.

Suicide is another matter entirely, one that is Sotral's problem, and Sotral's problem alone. If they want to commit suicide over their gender dysphoria, that's their issue.

Well that an asshole idea. Suicide is awful no matter why someone is doing it. Until you have suicide effect you're family or have to talk friends off the ledge you have no idea what it does.

[Mechanisburg]

False. Hormone treatment costs about... lessee, €1/50 mg cyproterone + €0.1/2 mg estradiol valerate per diem. Let's say average doses are 100 mg cyproterone acetate + 6 mg estradiol valerate: that's €2.3 per day, AKA €840 per year, at retail price. Let's assume HRT goes on for 50 years, and let's add €15'000 for surgery ($15'000 is what Chettawut asks for) - hell, let's double that to include stuff I haven't considered like blood tests and revisions. Total cost: €72'000 at retail prices, for a treatment lasting a lifetime (less than €1'500 per year).

Compare and contrast what [urll=https://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02621.x]St. Peter, 2012[/url] found out when investigating a case of a self-castration: $14'923 vs $4'000 for an elective orchidectomy. That's 3.73x the cost for the health service, with a much lower quality of life for the patient due to scarring, blood loss, and nerve damage.

How much does treatment for cancer costs? I heard figures in the millions. How much for transplants and immunosuppressants? How much does diabetes cost, or heart disease? HIV? STDs?

Edit: I went over my calculations, and they are flawed. No anti-androgens are needed after SRS, so if we assume SRS is done 5 years after the start of HRT cost goes down to €110 yearly, AKA 5 x €840 + 45 x €110 + €30'000 = €39'150, or less than €800 per year.

That's... considerably less than I thought it was.

Huh.

Do keep in mind those are retail costs - AKA what I would pay out of pocket, buying my own HRT, paying for my own SRS, for my own revisions and blood tests and supplies. Costs can go down considerably when nationalized healthcare gets into the picture: I'm pretty sure bulk costs for pills would be lower (hell, I just found out 168x100 mg generic pills are only $1.5 per pill, further bringing cost down by ~€900).

[Thermodolia]

Or helping them fight against their cancer.

That's different.

Cancer can actually be cured. Gender dysphoria cannot. It is nigh impossible to cure that which is an inherent structural anomaly in the brain.

Are you a medical doctor? Are you psychiatrist? How are you so sure that Gender dysphoria cannot be cured or at least mitigated to a point where it doesn't matter? If undergoing an operation mitigates Gender Dysphoria then wouldn't you want that?

Also cancer, depending on the type, can't technically be cured it just goes into remission. So by your own definition we shouldn't be helping cancer patients because it might come back

[USS Monitor]

*** Warned for flaming, baiting, and picspam. ***

FYI, most US bathrooms have a large stall with handrails for handicapped people. It's just not in a separate bathroom.

Hey, could we discuss that thoroughly, Mr. Moderator. I don't think that this warning is appropriate and way exaggerated.

You can appeal in the Moderation forum or via GHR.

[Soyouso]

I mean that in the sense that there's no chance of Sotral suddenly dropping dead because of their gender dysphoria.

Suicide is another matter entirely, one that is Sotral's problem, and Sotral's problem alone. If they want to commit suicide over their gender dysphoria, that's their issue.

Well that an asshole idea. Suicide is awful no matter why someone is doing it. Until you have suicide effect you're family or have to talk friends off the ledge you have no idea what it does.

Wow, do I know that to be true. I've had to be talked out of suicide myself multiple times. There was a point where I even had a plan for it, it was going to be an overdose or running in front of a truck. I've also had an ex friend (she is not dead we're just no longer friends) try to choke herself with a belt. Had her cousin not been over she would have died. She was raped a couple months before, in fact right after her birthday, and wasn't doing so well mentally afterwards.
A "the weak should die" attitude towards suicide is something that should be frowned upon. She wasn't getting the therapy she needed. It's not her fault she was suicidal, no one asks for things that are bad enough to make them want to die. We need to step up our mental health system.

[Ostroeuropa]

Pretty disappointed with Trump on this tbh, but this kind of thing was inevitable in some sense.

Just end bathroom segregation altogether or don't bother with this issue imo, it's a waste of everyones time.
Grandfather clause in current bathrooms and say future ones should be unisex. Done. Now everyone is grudgingly grumbling while taking a piss instead of doing a tug of war over a "Ladies" sign.
Personally I'm pro-trans but ultimately the country has to get along, and either way large sections of people are gonna get pissed and disagree with who should be allowed to use the women/mens room, but if you just make it unisex then both sides of this debate can pretend they won and got their way.
Ultimately if we keep it as is, it's not going to go away. We'll be having this debate forever, and it's just so fucking trivial. I don't get why trans advocates on this issue didn't see it that way too. They seem super pissed it was reversed. Well yeh. You're not going to get people to agree on this, not for decades at least. You tried to force people into something they weren't comfortable with instead of seeking a way to accomodate people who disagree with you. We'll be flipping back and forth on it constantly as a result and getting more and more pissed at eachother.
I understand you think their discomfort is wrong, but that's beside the point when there's a clear solution available that doesn't involve trying to make them see you as the gender you are when they don't want to.

[Thermodolia]

Pretty disappointed with Trump on this tbh, but this kind of thing was inevitable in some sense.

Just end bathroom segregation altogether or don't bother with this issue imo, it's a waste of everyones time.
Grandfather clause in current bathrooms and say future ones should be unisex. Done. Now everyone is grudgingly grumbling while taking a piss instead of doing a tug of war over a "Ladies" sign.
Personally I'm pro-trans but ultimately the country has to get along, and either way large sections of people are gonna get pissed and disagree with who should be allowed to use the women/mens room, but if you just make it unisex then both sides of this debate can pretend they won and got their way.
Ultimately if we keep it as is, it's not going to go away. We'll be having this debate forever, and it's just so fucking trivial. I don't get why trans advocates on this issue didn't see it that way too. They seem super pissed it was reversed. Well yeh. You're not going to get people to agree on this, not for decades at least. You tried to force people into something they weren't comfortable with instead of seeking a way to accomodate people who disagree with you. We'll be flipping back and forth on it constantly as a result and getting more and more pissed at eachother.
I understand you think their discomfort is wrong, but that's beside the point when there's a clear solution available that doesn't involve trying to make them see you as the gender you are when they don't want to.

Why we don't make all bathrooms unisex is beyond me. Just about every single private residence in the nation has unisex bathrooms and no one pitches a fit.

Honestly I hate the open stall idea that most bathrooms have currently, we should have floor to ceiling stalls with each one having a door that goes from the floor to the ceiling. That should pretty much end the bathroom problem

[The Flutterlands]

My question is why get freaked out over this instead of just going to the bathroom you wish for anyway, transphobes and complainers be damned? It's really not that hard and one shouldn't have to ask permission to do so.

I said this earlier, but as a recently converted liberatarian, I think the government shouldn't really need to have a say about who gets to use what bathroom as it's just pissing and shitting.

[The V O I D]

Y'know, I see a lot of the people for Trump's decision on this or generally against transitioning or allowing transgender people using the bathrooms of their identity (as they should) tend to either know very little/nothing about what being transgender is or means, nor about how gender dysphoria vs gender identity works, or they tend to get their information from very biased anti-LGBT sources.

In even rarer cases, it seems, they deny that scientific consensus about things means they are fact and would rather it be left up to individual interpretation or something else ridiculous like that.

Has anyone else noticed this, or is it just me?

[Ifreann]

Y'know, I see a lot of the people for Trump's decision on this or generally against transitioning or allowing transgender people using the bathrooms of their identity (as they should) tend to either know very little/nothing about what being transgender is or means, nor about how gender dysphoria vs gender identity works, or they tend to get their information from very biased anti-LGBT sources.

In even rarer cases, it seems, they deny that scientific consensus about things means they are fact and would rather it be left up to individual interpretation or something else ridiculous like that.

Has anyone else noticed this, or is it just me?

Par for the course for this sort of thing.

[Mechanisburg]

Y'know, I see a lot of the people for Trump's decision on this or generally against transitioning or allowing transgender people using the bathrooms of their identity (as they should) tend to either know very little/nothing about what being transgender is or means, nor about how gender dysphoria vs gender identity works, or they tend to get their information from very biased anti-LGBT sources.

In even rarer cases, it seems, they deny that scientific consensus about things means they are fact and would rather it be left up to individual interpretation or something else ridiculous like that.

Has anyone else noticed this, or is it just me?

I got a pretty good heuristic going on thanks to this. "Will this person have a good relationship with reality? Will this person examine rationally what is, instead of what they would like?" - religion, political leaning, and position on LGBT* rights are big factors. It hasn't failed me yet.