Trump Reverses The Transgender Bathroom Directive

[Galloism]

I mean that in the sense that there's no chance of Sotral suddenly dropping dead because of their gender dysphoria.

Suicide is another matter entirely, one that is Sotral's problem, and Sotral's problem alone. If they want to commit suicide over their gender dysphoria, that's their issue.

Why is death from suicide less moral than death from cancer?

Both are typically caused by an underlying medical condition.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Alright guys, I know it's hard to talk about trans related issues without it being a debate on transgenderism itself, but can we please try to steer it back to bathrooms?

[Sanctissima]

You want the state to provide almost everything while expecting practically nothing from its citizens in turn.

That is selfish by definition.

??????

When did I ever say I expect nothing? I'm pro taxes insofar that they're necessary? I'm not against laws regulating interpersonal relations (such as "don't murder people")? How am I not expecting anything from citizens?

You're allowing them to mutilate and kill themselves willy nilly. Education, healthcare and all other state-run services cost money. Citizens have a responsibility to give back what they take, in the form of being productive members of society.

[Auldenland]

Being gay I understand gay people... but transgender...I don't understand

[Sotral]

I don't particularly like "stay in your lane" arguments, but if you think that dysphoria is "belittling myself", then you should seriously not attempt to make any statement about what having it is like.

Mental health problems are, as the name implies, health problems.

I am depressed. I feel like dirt all the time and think that everyone hates me or is out to get me. I know what it feels like to be shitty. You are not unique. Stop demanding stuff. Stop being a pain for other people.

Sure you know what it feels to be shitty. And I don't mean that sarcastically, I totally believe you that you know how it feels when depression makes you feel shitty.

Incidentally, unrelated to being trans, I also suffer from depression. Which is why I know that feeling shitty because of depression and feeling shitty because of dysphoria are not the same thing. At least not for me.

[Aelex]

Because I would feel better without it. If it remained, my hand would gradually have become less functional and more painful over time.

So for medical necessity, then.

It doesn't disappear, not ever. Even women have testosterone, although less, and they have no testes. So we're injecting people with hormones in order to raise hormones above their normal level.

Which is kind of the point: why is it ok to raise an elderly man's testosterone above its natural level, but not ok to raise a young woman's testosterone above its natural level, even though they both have low levels of testosterone and would feel better with more?

Because we're only putting back the elderly man to his old hormone level he used to have when he was younger. I do agree that most "cosmetic" hormones therapy should be either banned or heavily regulated, tho. We still know too little about those things to fuck around with them so much.

[Sanctissima]

I mean that in the sense that there's no chance of Sotral suddenly dropping dead because of their gender dysphoria.

Suicide is another matter entirely, one that is Sotral's problem, and Sotral's problem alone. If they want to commit suicide over their gender dysphoria, that's their issue.

Why is death from suicide less moral than death from cancer?

Both are typically caused by an underlying medical condition.

I'm not talking about it in the context of morality. I'm talking about it in the context of the responsibility of the state to provide healthcare. Alleviating the risk of suicide amongst people with gender dysphoria by paying for their surgical transition makes no more sense than doing the same for someone suffering from chronic depression by buying them a Ferrari.

[Sotral]

Why is death from suicide less moral than death from cancer?

Both are typically caused by an underlying medical condition.

I'm not talking about it in the context of morality. I'm talking about it in the context of the responsibility of the state to provide healthcare. Alleviating the risk of suicide amongst people with gender dysphoria by paying for their surgical transition makes no more sense than doing the same for someone suffering from chronic depression by buying them a Ferrari.

Except that medical transition removes the cause for (physical) dysphoria or at least alleviates it. Getting a ferrarri doesn't cure depression.

[Slopuba]

I am depressed. I feel like dirt all the time and think that everyone hates me or is out to get me. I know what it feels like to be shitty. You are not unique. Stop demanding stuff. Stop being a pain for other people.

Sure you know what it feels to be shitty. And I don't mean that sarcastically, I totally believe you that you know how it feels when depression makes you feel shitty.

Incidentally, unrelated to being trans, I also suffer from depression. Which is why I know that feeling shitty because of depression and feeling shitty because of dysphoria are not the same thing. At least not for me.

Alright, I still don't think that you need to get your surgery be paid by the state and that is that. Shitty is shitty for me and saying that you feel shitty in a unique kind-a way is idiotic.

[Galloism]

Because I would feel better without it. If it remained, my hand would gradually have become less functional and more painful over time.

So for medical necessity, then.

To the extent a form of mental distress is a medical necessity, sure.

Which is the point.

It doesn't disappear, not ever. Even women have testosterone, although less, and they have no testes. So we're injecting people with hormones in order to raise hormones above their normal level.

Which is kind of the point: why is it ok to raise an elderly man's testosterone above its natural level, but not ok to raise a young woman's testosterone above its natural level, even though they both have low levels of testosterone and would feel better with more?

Because we're only putting back the elderly man to his old hormone level he used to have when he was younger. I do agree that most "cosmetic" hormones therapy should be either banned or heavily regulated, tho. We still know too little about those things to fuck around with them so much.

What difference does it make what hormone level he had when he was younger?

"Cosmetic hormone therapy". Can honestly say I've never heard anyone say that. Ever.

[Galloism]

Why is death from suicide less moral than death from cancer?

Both are typically caused by an underlying medical condition.

I'm not talking about it in the context of morality. I'm talking about it in the context of the responsibility of the state to provide healthcare. Alleviating the risk of suicide amongst people with gender dysphoria by paying for their surgical transition makes no more sense than doing the same for someone suffering from chronic depression by buying them a Ferrari.

Or helping them fight against their cancer.

[Salandriagado]

Sure you know what it feels to be shitty. And I don't mean that sarcastically, I totally believe you that you know how it feels when depression makes you feel shitty.

Incidentally, unrelated to being trans, I also suffer from depression. Which is why I know that feeling shitty because of depression and feeling shitty because of dysphoria are not the same thing. At least not for me.

Alright, I still don't think that you need to get your surgery be paid by the state and that is that. Shitty is shitty for me and saying that you feel shitty in a unique kind-a way is idiotic.

The state should pay for whatever methods are most effective at improving the lives of its citizens, up to the limit of its available funds. If that happens to include SRS but there is no equivalent cost-effective procedure for your particular problem, that's kinda sucky, but the way to fix it is to either research some more cost effective treatment for you or to increase the available funds, not to stop helping the people that you can.

[Sotral]

??????

When did I ever say I expect nothing? I'm pro taxes insofar that they're necessary? I'm not against laws regulating interpersonal relations (such as "don't murder people")? How am I not expecting anything from citizens?

You're allowing them to mutilate and kill themselves willy nilly. Education, healthcare and all other state-run services cost money. Citizens have a responsibility to give back what they take, in the form of being productive members of society.

People making an informed decision about their bodies can still contribute, as disabled people in general are fully capable of being productive mbers of society, and people who commit suicide won't exactly need any state-run services afterwards.

And who said anything about willy nilly? I never said there shouldn't be any counselling about it.

[Sanctissima]

I'm not talking about it in the context of morality. I'm talking about it in the context of the responsibility of the state to provide healthcare. Alleviating the risk of suicide amongst people with gender dysphoria by paying for their surgical transition makes no more sense than doing the same for someone suffering from chronic depression by buying them a Ferrari.

Except that medical transition removes the cause for (physical) dysphoria or at least alleviates it. Getting a ferrarri doesn't cure depression.

Both instances relieve it to a certain extent. That's my point.

Neither instance actually cures the root cause, and both are prohibitively expensive regardless.

[Blernovo]

Says the person who I assume experiences no dysphoria.

I was not far from offing myself over my dysphoria, you know. I'm in a better place now—currently I only feel perpetually disgusted by my own body, want to cry over having to inhabit it as it is, not wanting anyone to see me in it and intrusive suicidal thoughts I don't intend to act on anymore, and other nice things.

Yep. Being trans is pretty fun.

That's unfortunate, but it's really your problem.

You are at no physical risk of dying as a result of not undergoing surgery. Your problems are largely psychological, and while the state has some responsibility to give you a certain amount of therapy, that is as far as its responsibility goes. It is under no obligation to pay for your surgical transition just because you can't handle living in your body as it currently stands.

How compassionate.

[Slopuba]

Alright, I still don't think that you need to get your surgery be paid by the state and that is that. Shitty is shitty for me and saying that you feel shitty in a unique kind-a way is idiotic.

The state should pay for whatever methods are most effective at improving the lives of its citizens, up to the limit of its available funds. If that happens to include SRS but there is no equivalent cost-effective procedure for your particular problem, that's kinda sucky, but the way to fix it is to either research some more cost effective treatment for you or to increase the available funds, not to stop helping the people that you can.

Not of minorities or people that think they have problems. I don't need treatment, I just feel bad and irrelevant all the time. That's life for me. I just need to grow as a person and life with what I have and not be a pain for other people. So, no, no taxes for surgery.

[Sanctissima]

I'm not talking about it in the context of morality. I'm talking about it in the context of the responsibility of the state to provide healthcare. Alleviating the risk of suicide amongst people with gender dysphoria by paying for their surgical transition makes no more sense than doing the same for someone suffering from chronic depression by buying them a Ferrari.

Or helping them fight against their cancer.

That's different.

Cancer can actually be cured. Gender dysphoria cannot. It is nigh impossible to cure that which is an inherent structural anomaly in the brain.

[Mechanisburg]

*the medical community, and we trans* people, believe - thanks to evidence - that one can change sex for all intents and purposes. After all, both primary and secondary sexual characteristics can be changed quite easily, and that's what sex effectively is.

Inb4 "chromosomes", chromosomes are irrelevant beyond the initial differentiation, and do pretty much nothing afterwards, and our definition of sex is not based on them - because if it was, the sex of 99.99% of humanity would be unknown.

Bullshit. Utter bullshit. Please post the sources of renown praticiens agreeing that one can "change sex for all intents and purposes.".

And no. Neither was you said about what "sex effectively is" and us being able to change "quite easily" primary and secondary sexual characteristics" is true. You're either lying your ass off or being very wide and generous with your interpretation of all those statements here.

Uhm... you can change your sex for all intents and purposes. Sex effectively is primary and secondary characteristics, and those can be changed - quite easily, yes, through a combination of hormones, surgery and other treatments. Far more easily than, say, performing a womb transplant to restore fertility in infertile women.

And no, I'm neither lying out of my ass nor being very wide and generous. Sex can be changed: because it's not chromosomes, nor it is fertility, and for all intents and purposes - that being, about 99.99% of the time - only primary and secondary characteristics count in both daily life and medical practice. Breasts require bras and beards require razors and all that, medicine needs to keep in consideration hormone levels and all that. The remaining 0.01% is basically irrelevant.

[Sanctissima]

You're allowing them to mutilate and kill themselves willy nilly. Education, healthcare and all other state-run services cost money. Citizens have a responsibility to give back what they take, in the form of being productive members of society.

People making an informed decision about their bodies can still contribute, as disabled people in general are fully capable of being productive mbers of society, and people who commit suicide won't exactly need any state-run services afterwards.

And who said anything about willy nilly? I never said there shouldn't be any counselling about it.

The disabled cannot contribute to the same extent as the non-disabled, and those who commit suicide cannot contribute at all (which is precisely my point).

[Sotral]

Except that medical transition removes the cause for (physical) dysphoria or at least alleviates it. Getting a ferrarri doesn't cure depression.

Both instances relieve it to a certain extent. That's my point.

Neither instance actually cures the root cause, and both are prohibitively expensive regardless.

I don't think antidepressants cure the root cause either, do they? You have to keep taking them, so my assumption is they treat the symptoms, not the root cause. Are you against prescribing them too?

There currently is no alternative to transitioning to alleviate dysphoria. The scientific community is fairly clear that conversion therapy doesn't work.

[Mechanisburg]

Or helping them fight against their cancer.

That's different.

Cancer can actually be cured. Gender dysphoria cannot. It is nigh impossible to cure that which is an inherent structural anomaly in the brain.

Gender dysphoria can be cured effectively by transitioning to bring secondary and/or primary sexual characteristics in line with what the brain expects. Gender identity cannot be cured, because gender identity is no disease.

[Sanctissima]

That's unfortunate, but it's really your problem.

You are at no physical risk of dying as a result of not undergoing surgery. Your problems are largely psychological, and while the state has some responsibility to give you a certain amount of therapy, that is as far as its responsibility goes. It is under no obligation to pay for your surgical transition just because you can't handle living in your body as it currently stands.

How compassionate.

Says the Commie.

But really, the surgical and hormonal treatments required to transition cost a shit ton of money. It is not an expense the state should be required to pay.

[Sanctissima]

Both instances relieve it to a certain extent. That's my point.

Neither instance actually cures the root cause, and both are prohibitively expensive regardless.

I don't think antidepressants cure the root cause either, do they? You have to keep taking them, so my assumption is they treat the symptoms, not the root cause. Are you against prescribing them too?

There currently is no alternative to transitioning to alleviate dysphoria. The scientific community is fairly clear that conversion therapy doesn't work.

Of course conversion therapy works. I can convince a person they're a dog if you let me torture them for long enough. The point is that the methods required to do so would be barbaric, not that it can't be done.

Regardless, psychological therapy can work quite well. Plenty of people learn to accept their bodies for what they are. There's no reason you can't do the same.

[Sotral]

People making an informed decision about their bodies can still contribute, as disabled people in general are fully capable of being productive mbers of society, and people who commit suicide won't exactly need any state-run services afterwards.

And who said anything about willy nilly? I never said there shouldn't be any counselling about it.

The disabled cannot contribute to the same extent as the non-disabled, and those who commit suicide cannot contribute at all (which is precisely my point).

Stephen Hawking has arguably contributed more to society than the majority of abled people. And if you're not around to claim state-sponsored services, it's not an issue that you're not helping sponsor them.

Incidentally, if I were to commit suicide, I would also not contribute anymore. Funny that you think it's only my problem when I talked about it.

[Soyouso]

I wouldn't want to tax the people simply so I can get surgery, I'd rather work to pay it off myself so I'm not a burden to other people. What should be taxed for is research for better mental health system to make sure people with gender dysphoria don't kill themselves. I have depression, and I'm still better off than a lot of other trans people, unfortunately. It's the dysphoria and the social stigma, made worse by the idiotic stereotypical Tumblr users who think it's a trend. We're not oppressed, nor should we be treated as a special class, but I wouldn't underestimate transphobia, it is still a problem.