Trump Reverses The Transgender Bathroom Directive

[Salandriagado]

Yes, we would very much like to be treated like the majority, thanks for admitting you don't think we should have equal rights.

If you think none of those things are in the bible, you haven't read an adult bible.

And I don't think you have read the bible at all. Maybe the old testament but maybe you thought that's enough. Equal rights are good and all but I was saying you are demanding more than that.

Matthew 15:1-6
Acts 3:23
Romans 1:31-32
Galatians 1:8-9
Hebrews 9:13-22

[Slopuba]

No, I just said that changing your gender at the cost of the state is ridiculous and I wouldn't pay money for that.

...so you just said you want to withhold lifesaving treatment from those of us who can't afford it. That's what it amounts to. If you think people should have to pay for their own transition, those who can't will be out of luck.

(Slightly offtopic, but before anyone says anything, I consider healthcare to be a human right.)

It's not "changing our gender", by the way. We transition medically so our bodies match our genders.

Then wait until you have the money to change your gender or don't do it at all. If you want to kill yourself over it that's of nobodies problem.

And it is still changing your gender. It is not a transition, you change your gender.

[Sanctissima]

No, I just said that changing your gender at the cost of the state is ridiculous and I wouldn't pay money for that.

...so you just said you want to withhold lifesaving treatment from those of us who can't afford it. That's what it amounts to. If you think people should have to pay for their own transition, those who can't will be out of luck.

(Slightly offtopic, but before anyone says anything, I consider healthcare to be a human right.)

It's not "changing our gender", by the way. We transition medically so our bodies match our genders.

Lifesaving treatment?

Your life is hardly in danger if you don't surgically transition. :/

[Aelex]

You objected that most people have seen something about relativity on TV so it's different than transgenderism. Which is kind of like complaining that eating is different than drinking because drinking is something everyone does.

Except like I already explained in the previous post, what I merely said was that your exemple was shit because most people are familiar with the laws of relativity because there are a lot of T.V stuff related to it, to which you responded with a total non sequitur about how "most people saw trans on tv too!" that I called you on and to which you responded by an accusation about how I made a non sequitur, forcing me to explain once more what you should have grasped already.
Now that I have explained it twice, don't intentionnaly misunderstand what I said again please. It's getting rather tiresome.

People pierce their penises and clits, you know. And we use hormone treatments all the time. In fact, I see testosterone replacement ads on TV fairly often.

Unless testerone replacement for aging men is an abomination.

Piercing =/= removing. Using hormonal complements =/= injecting in your body vast quantity of hormones that shouldn't be here.

[Aelex]

Ah, ok, you don't know what gender dysphoria involves. Delusions involve false beliefs in the state of the world - not simply mistaken, but actually going against observation. Gender dysphoria involves no delusions, and this is why:

1. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and pri­mary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the antici­pated secondary sex characteristics).
2. A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics be­cause of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated second­ary sex characteristics).
3. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender.
4. A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).
5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender dif­ferent from one’s assigned gender).
6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gen­der (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).

These are the criteria for a gender dysphoria diagnosis, according to the DSM-V. In adolescents or adults, two of them are needed for a gender dysphoria diagnosis, which is required for SRS.

1. involves no delusions, as experienced gender is reality as observed by the patient;
2. involves no delusions, as desire cannot be delusional ("I want to be god" vs "I am god" - the first might be impossible, but unless accompanied by certainty that the goal can be achieved in the face of reality is not a delusion);
3. see 2;
4. see 2;
5. see 2;
6. see 2;
7. see 1.

Trans people believe that they will be able to change sex and from man become woman or vice-versa. By your own definition, they are delusional. :^)

[Sotral]

Then I'm afraid you're either void of common sense or far too ideologically entrenched.

Regardless, it would be meaningless to keep the state in such a situation because it would be allowing a practice that is entirely antithetical to the very existence of the state. Freedom and liberty have their limits within the confines of any polity, and if we're just going to let people severely mutilate themselves, then we might as well give up any pretense of civilization and abolish the whole system, because the next step would be letting them kill themselves whenever they feel like it.

The state assumes the role of a parent, of sorts, and if a parent lets their children mutilate themselves, then they're a really god-awful parent.

Nope. Still not making sense to me. Freedom and liberty have limits where they infringe on the liberty of others. Making an informed decision about your own body does not infringe on the liberty of others (barring edge cases like infectious diseases etc.), therefore there's no reason not to allow it.

I think it's best we end this discussion here. It seems like we come from far too different viewpoints to see eye to eye on this, and throwing the same arguments at each other again and again is pretty pointless.

[Galloism]

You objected that most people have seen something about relativity on TV so it's different than transgenderism. Which is kind of like complaining that eating is different than drinking because drinking is something everyone does.

Except like I already explained in the previous post, what I merely said was that your exemple was shit because most people are familiar with the laws of relativity because there are a lot of T.V stuff related to it,

Which is also true of transgenderism.

to which you responded with a total non sequitur about how "most people saw trans on tv too!" that I called you on and to which you responded by an accusation about how I made a non sequitur, forcing me to explain once more what you should have grasped already.

That you're making objections that don't make sense?

People pierce their penises and clits, you know. And we use hormone treatments all the time. In fact, I see testosterone replacement ads on TV fairly often.

Unless testerone replacement for aging men is an abomination.

Piercing =/= removing.

Eh, it's a modification that isn't there naturally in either case.

Using hormonal complements =/= injecting in your body vast quantity of hormones that shouldn't be here.

Hormones are supposed to decline with age, therefore, testosterone replacement is injecting your body with a vast quantity of hormones that shouldn't be there.

[Mechanisburg]

Gee, thanks for assuring me you wouldn't discriminate against us, you just want to withhold lifesaving treatment from those of us who aren't lucky enough to be able to afford us.

No, I just said that changing your gender at the cost of the state is ridiculous and I wouldn't pay money for that.

Yeah, I agree. Reparative therapy has been found to be completely ineffective and counterproductive to boot, and state funds shouldn't go towards that: gender can't be changed, and any attempts would lead to an increase in suicidality. Luckily we can bring it down with effective, evidence-backed, cheap treatments.

[Sanctissima]

Then I'm afraid you're either void of common sense or far too ideologically entrenched.

Regardless, it would be meaningless to keep the state in such a situation because it would be allowing a practice that is entirely antithetical to the very existence of the state. Freedom and liberty have their limits within the confines of any polity, and if we're just going to let people severely mutilate themselves, then we might as well give up any pretense of civilization and abolish the whole system, because the next step would be letting them kill themselves whenever they feel like it.

The state assumes the role of a parent, of sorts, and if a parent lets their children mutilate themselves, then they're a really god-awful parent.

Nope. Still not making sense to me. Freedom and liberty have limits where they infringe on the liberty of others. Making an informed decision about your own body does not infringe on the liberty of others (barring edge cases like infectious diseases etc.), therefore there's no reason not to allow it.

I think it's best we end this discussion here. It seems like we come from far too different viewpoints to see eye to eye on this, and throwing the same arguments at each other again and again is pretty pointless.

See, this is why I don't like libertarians.

It's the worst kind of selfishness without even the pretense of a sense of responsibility.

[Sotral]

...so you just said you want to withhold lifesaving treatment from those of us who can't afford it. That's what it amounts to. If you think people should have to pay for their own transition, those who can't will be out of luck.

(Slightly offtopic, but before anyone says anything, I consider healthcare to be a human right.)

It's not "changing our gender", by the way. We transition medically so our bodies match our genders.

Lifesaving treatment?

Your life is hardly in danger if you don't surgically transition. :/

Says the person who I assume experiences no dysphoria.

I was not far from offing myself over my dysphoria, you know. I'm in a better place now—currently I only feel perpetually disgusted by my own body, want to cry over having to inhabit it as it is, not wanting anyone to see me in it and intrusive suicidal thoughts I don't intend to act on anymore, and other nice things.

Yep. Being trans is pretty fun.

[Mechanisburg]

Ah, ok, you don't know what gender dysphoria involves. Delusions involve false beliefs in the state of the world - not simply mistaken, but actually going against observation. Gender dysphoria involves no delusions, and this is why:

These are the criteria for a gender dysphoria diagnosis, according to the DSM-V. In adolescents or adults, two of them are needed for a gender dysphoria diagnosis, which is required for SRS.

1. involves no delusions, as experienced gender is reality as observed by the patient;
2. involves no delusions, as desire cannot be delusional ("I want to be god" vs "I am god" - the first might be impossible, but unless accompanied by certainty that the goal can be achieved in the face of reality is not a delusion);
3. see 2;
4. see 2;
5. see 2;
6. see 2;
7. see 1.

Trans people believe that they will be able to change sex and from man become woman or vice-versa. By your own definition, they are delusional. :^)

*the medical community, and we trans* people, believe - thanks to evidence - that one can change sex for all intents and purposes. After all, both primary and secondary sexual characteristics can be changed quite easily, and that's what sex effectively is.

Inb4 "chromosomes", chromosomes are irrelevant beyond the initial differentiation, and do pretty much nothing afterwards, and our definition of sex is not based on them - because if it was, the sex of 99.99% of humanity would be unknown.

[Aelex]

Which is also true of transgenderism.

Which is still an utter non sequitur.

That you're making objections that don't make sense?

Rather that you're unable to not respond to a simple observation (your argument is poor in the first place because most actually know of the subject you mentionned) without going on random and irrelevant tangents (well but people know about Trans too!!!).

Eh, it's a modification that isn't there naturally in either case.

Piercing =/= Removing.

Hormones are supposed to decline with age, therefore, testosterone replacement is injecting your body with a vast quantity of hormones that shouldn't be there.

Declining production imply that there was a rather sizeable production in the first place which is not the case with the hormones you're talking about.

[Sotral]

See, this is why I don't like libertarians.

It's the worst kind of selfishness without even the pretense of a sense of responsibility.

If you think my position is selfish, okay. Then go selfishness.

[Galloism]

Which is also true of transgenderism.

Which is still an utter non sequitur.

Then your objection made no sense, and you shouldn't have made it.

Piercing =/= Removing.

Well, functionally no, but I'm not sure what the ethical difference is.

I had a bone removed from my wrist and the entire thing restructured because of a rare medical condition. Yet no one judges me for having one less bone than normal.

Declining production imply that there was a rather sizeable production in the first place which is not the case with the hormones you're talking about.

So? They're supposed to decline.

Injecting a vast quantity of hormones into a body that shouldn't be there is bad. You told me so.

[Aelex]

*the medical community, and we trans* people, believe - thanks to evidence - that one can change sex for all intents and purposes. After all, both primary and secondary sexual characteristics can be changed quite easily, and that's what sex effectively is.

Inb4 "chromosomes", chromosomes are irrelevant beyond the initial differentiation, and do pretty much nothing afterwards, and our definition of sex is not based on them - because if it was, the sex of 99.99% of humanity would be unknown.

Bullshit. Utter bullshit. Please post the sources of renown praticiens agreeing that one can "change sex for all intents and purposes.".

And no. Neither was you said about what "sex effectively is" and us being able to change "quite easily" primary and secondary sexual characteristics" is true. You're either lying your ass off or being very wide and generous with your interpretation of all those statements here.

[Slopuba]

Lifesaving treatment?

Your life is hardly in danger if you don't surgically transition. :/

Says the person who I assume experiences no dysphoria.

I was not far from offing myself over my dysphoria, you know. I'm in a better place now—currently I only feel perpetually disgusted by my own body, want to cry over having to inhabit it as it is, not wanting anyone to see me in it and intrusive suicidal thoughts I don't intend to act on anymore, and other nice things.

Yep. Being trans is pretty fun.

If you feel shitty about yourself then that is your problem. I won't pay taxes for it as it is no problem to your health but you yourself belitteling yourself. Make some money and pay for that goddamn surgery.

[Sanctissima]

Lifesaving treatment?

Your life is hardly in danger if you don't surgically transition. :/

Says the person who I assume experiences no dysphoria.

I was not far from offing myself over my dysphoria, you know. I'm in a better place now—currently I only feel perpetually disgusted by my own body, want to cry over having to inhabit it as it is, not wanting anyone to see me in it and intrusive suicidal thoughts I don't intend to act on anymore, and other nice things.

Yep. Being trans is pretty fun.

That's unfortunate, but it's really your problem.

You are at no physical risk of dying as a result of not undergoing surgery. Your problems are largely psychological, and while the state has some responsibility to give you a certain amount of therapy, that is as far as its responsibility goes. It is under no obligation to pay for your surgical transition just because you can't handle living in your body as it currently stands.

[Sotral]

Says the person who I assume experiences no dysphoria.

I was not far from offing myself over my dysphoria, you know. I'm in a better place now—currently I only feel perpetually disgusted by my own body, want to cry over having to inhabit it as it is, not wanting anyone to see me in it and intrusive suicidal thoughts I don't intend to act on anymore, and other nice things.

Yep. Being trans is pretty fun.

If you feel shitty about yourself then that is your problem. I won't pay taxes for it as it is no problem to your health but you yourself belitteling yourself. Make some money and pay for that goddamn surgery.

I don't particularly like "stay in your lane" arguments, but if you think that dysphoria is "belittling myself", then you should seriously not attempt to make any statement about what having it is like.

Mental health problems are, as the name implies, health problems.

[Sanctissima]

See, this is why I don't like libertarians.

It's the worst kind of selfishness without even the pretense of a sense of responsibility.

If you think my position is selfish, okay. Then go selfishness.

You want the state to provide almost everything while expecting practically nothing from its citizens in turn.

That is selfish by definition.

[Aelex]

Then your objection made no sense, and you shouldn't have made it.

"My objection is an utter non sequitur with literally no relation to what the previous poster said there his own objection make no sense and he shouldn't have made it!"
Wew lad. I'm having trouble following the amount of bullshitery you're displaying, there.

Well, functionally no, but I'm not sure what the ethical difference is.

I had a bone removed from my wrist and the entire thing restructured because of a rare medical condition. Yet no one judges me for having one less bone than normal.

Did you get said bone removed because it was a medical necessity or just because "you would feel better without it"? I suppose it's the first and therefore there's no wonder why no one judges you for it.

So? They're supposed to decline.

Injecting a vast quantity of hormones into a body that shouldn't be there is bad. You told me so.

Supposed to decline doesn't mean supposed to disappear. ;^)

[Galloism]

You are at no physical risk of dying as a result of not undergoing surgery.

Actually, this isn't true.

While 4.6 of Americans have attempted suicide, 41% of trans people have.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/ ... -Final.pdf

[Sotral]

If you think my position is selfish, okay. Then go selfishness.

You want the state to provide almost everything while expecting practically nothing from its citizens in turn.

That is selfish by definition.

??????

When did I ever say I expect nothing? I'm pro taxes insofar that they're necessary? I'm not against laws regulating interpersonal relations (such as "don't murder people")? How am I not expecting anything from citizens?

[Sanctissima]

You are at no physical risk of dying as a result of not undergoing surgery.

Actually, this isn't true.

While 4.6 of Americans have attempted suicide, 41% of trans people have.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/ ... -Final.pdf

I mean that in the sense that there's no chance of Sotral suddenly dropping dead because of their gender dysphoria.

Suicide is another matter entirely, one that is Sotral's problem, and Sotral's problem alone. If they want to commit suicide over their gender dysphoria, that's their issue.

[Slopuba]

If you feel shitty about yourself then that is your problem. I won't pay taxes for it as it is no problem to your health but you yourself belitteling yourself. Make some money and pay for that goddamn surgery.

I don't particularly like "stay in your lane" arguments, but if you think that dysphoria is "belittling myself", then you should seriously not attempt to make any statement about what having it is like.

Mental health problems are, as the name implies, health problems.

I am depressed. I feel like dirt all the time and think that everyone hates me or is out to get me. I know what it feels like to be shitty. You are not unique. Stop demanding stuff. Stop being a pain for other people.

[Galloism]

Did you get said bone removed because it was a medical necessity or just because "you would feel better without it"?

Because I would feel better without it. If it remained, my hand would gradually have become less functional and more painful over time.

Supposed to decline doesn't mean to disappear. ;^)

It doesn't disappear, not ever. Even women have testosterone, although less, and they have no testes. So we're injecting people with hormones in order to raise hormones above their normal level.

Which is kind of the point: why is it ok to raise an elderly man's testosterone above its natural level, but not ok to raise a young woman's testosterone above its natural level, even though they both have low levels of testosterone and would feel better with more?