Bernie 2020 - Keith 2017

[Sanctissima]

Who the hell advocates Socialism as an end in and of itself?

Only people who come close to that, which I kind think of off the top of my head, are Social Democrats, and Bernie is not one of them. I believe you're the one talking out of your ass.

Social democrats aren't socialists, and socialists advocate socialism as an end of itself.

Hence why I said "comes close to".

And no, Socialists, by and large, do not advocate Socialism as an end in and of itself. It is intended as a means of achieving Communism, not as an end goal.

[Astaliah]

Who the hell advocates Socialism as an end in and of itself?

Only people who come close to that, which I kind think of off the top of my head, are Social Democrats, and Bernie is not one of them. I believe you're the one talking out of your ass.

Bernie is a social democrat. He sure as hell isn't a socialist.

As the Donald would say: True

[Sanctissima]

Who the hell advocates Socialism as an end in and of itself?

Only people who come close to that, which I kind think of off the top of my head, are Social Democrats, and Bernie is not one of them. I believe you're the one talking out of your ass.

Bernie is a social democrat. He sure as hell isn't a socialist.

He self-describes himself as being a Democratic Socialist... :/

[Herrebrugh]

Bernie is a social democrat. He sure as hell isn't a socialist.

He self-describes himself as being a Democratic Socialist... :/

So?

[Farnhamia]

Bernie is a good guy, but he's kind of old. Also, 2020 is still 3 years away. I think we should look at our other options and see if there are any good candidates who aren't as old and kooky.

And it would be nice if we didn't start talking about the next presidential election until, say, a year after the last one. Or two years! Or three! Seriously.

[Sanctissima]

He self-describes himself as being a Democratic Socialist... :/

So?

Are we now debating whether or not he's really a Democratic Socialist, even if he considers himself as such?

[Petrolheadia]

Bernie is a good guy, but he's kind of old. Also, 2020 is still 3 years away. I think we should look at our other options and see if there are any good candidates who aren't as old and kooky.

And it would be nice if we didn't start talking about the next presidential election until, say, a year after the last one. Or two years! Or three! Seriously.

If you don't like a discussion, don't participate.

Simple as that.

[Valaran]

Social democrats aren't socialists, and socialists advocate socialism as an end of itself.

Hence why I said "comes close to".

And no, Socialists, by and large, do not advocate Socialism as an end in and of itself. It is intended as a means of achieving Communism, not as an end goal.

I wouldn't say we come that close to socialism. I freely admit that perspectives from other ends of the ideological scale might group is together, but there are some pretty fundamental differences.

By and large they do. It's only communists who consider socialism a transitional ideology. Perhaps your impression of this comes from them.

[Ashmoria]

Bernie is a good guy, but he's kind of old. Also, 2020 is still 3 years away. I think we should look at our other options and see if there are any good candidates who aren't as old and kooky.

And it would be nice if we didn't start talking about the next presidential election until, say, a year after the last one. Or two years! Or three! Seriously.

sorry but you are behind the curve. trump had a 2020 campaign event last saturday

[Herrebrugh]

So?

Are we now debating whether or not he's really a Democratic Socialist, even if he considers himself as such?

You're apparently calling Bernie Sanders a communist because he erroneously calls himself a democratic socialist. I'm telling you he's not even a socialist, he's a social democrat.

[Adytus]

no

he is too friggin' old. he should try grooming someone else for the run.

I entirely agree with this. I think it's time for new, democratic leadership all together, not that I have anything against Bernie. I just feel like it's time to seriously discuss a change in democratic leadership.

[Idzequitch]

My distaste for his economic policies aside, he's gonna be 79 years old in 2020. Which means, assuming he won, he would be 83 by the end of his first term. Let's just be honest for a moment. A normal, healthy person can die before 83 and it's not unusual. Now factor in the fact that being president is stressful. If it turned Bush the 2nd and Obama's hair gray, what will it do to someone who already has gone white? Had he won this time around, I would give him a decent chance to at least live through the full term, but in 2020? Not so much with all the stress. There's a reason that most people try to retire before they're 79.

Also, you have to factor in that, should he run for re-election in 2024, we'd have to bank on him living to 87 under that same constant stress for another four years. Even if he does live that long, you still have to figure he could develop dementia or some other issue that would hinder him from doing the job. I understand that there's now a branch of the USA that has embraced his policies, but those people would be wise to find someone else to rally behind.

[Sanctissima]

Hence why I said "comes close to".

And no, Socialists, by and large, do not advocate Socialism as an end in and of itself. It is intended as a means of achieving Communism, not as an end goal.

I wouldn't say we come that close to socialism. I freely admit that perspectives from other ends of the ideological scale might group is together, but there are some pretty fundamental differences.

By and large they do. It's only communists who consider socialism a transitional ideology. Perhaps your impression of this comes from them.

Eh, you advocate for most of their policies, so the line is very thin.

In terms of Socialism being considered an end in and of itself, I have never encountered a Socialist idealogue or author who believed this. If you can provide one as an example, I will relent on this point.

[Equalsun Empire]

Come 2020 Bernie Sanders will be 79 years old... That's just a little bit too dangerous. In that position people would be voting for his VP, not him. I don't believe that Bernie should run again for president of the United States. However, I do believe that he should use his influence and popularity to strengthen public support for another, younger candidate that shares his ideals. Who that might be I have no idea, but hey, we've got three years and eleven months to figure it out

[Angleter]

He shouldn't run, he won't run, and if he did, he wouldn't win (qv point 2).

[Ratateague]

I wouldn't say we come that close to socialism. I freely admit that perspectives from other ends of the ideological scale might group is together, but there are some pretty fundamental differences.

By and large they do. It's only communists who consider socialism a transitional ideology. Perhaps your impression of this comes from them.

Eh, you advocate for most of their policies, so the line is very thin.

In terms of Socialism being considered an end in and of itself, I have never encountered a Socialist idealogue or author who believed this. If you can provide one as an example, I will relent on this point.

Not even Robert Owen? Utopian Socialism and Ethical Socialism are things.

[Leolucia]

Would he be alived by then?

[Farnhamia]

And it would be nice if we didn't start talking about the next presidential election until, say, a year after the last one. Or two years! Or three! Seriously.

sorry but you are behind the curve. trump had a 2020 campaign event last saturday

I know. According to Snopes, "... President Trump filed a letter on Inauguration Day, 20 January 2017, notifying the Federal Elections Commission that he has met the legal threshold for filing for reelection in 2020 (though the letter says that it is not a formal candidate announcement)." It would be nice to have some time off, though. I guess not.

[Petrolheadia]

Well, as weird as I may sound, I think Kanye West might get a bit of Bernie's crowd.

West talked about how he cares about humanity, not politics, so he might steal the more leftist bit of Sanders' supporters, and some from the Greens, too.

[Valaran]

I wouldn't say we come that close to socialism. I freely admit that perspectives from other ends of the ideological scale might group is together, but there are some pretty fundamental differences.

By and large they do. It's only communists who consider socialism a transitional ideology. Perhaps your impression of this comes from them.

Eh, you advocate for most of their policies, so the line is very thin.

In terms of Socialism being considered an end in and of itself, I have never encountered a Socialist idealogue or author who believed this. If you can provide one as an example, I will relent on this point.

Not really. Social democracy is mostly concerned about improving the market system of distribution, not supplanting it.

You may never have encountered one, but I'd politely suggest that might suggest that this says more about the socialists near you than the ideology as a whole. I stress that it's only transitional
In communist thought.

I'll happily provide one though it will have to wait until I get back home (circa 30 mins).

[Ashmoria]

sorry but you are behind the curve. trump had a 2020 campaign event last saturday

I know. According to Snopes, "... President Trump filed a letter on Inauguration Day, 20 January 2017, notifying the Federal Elections Commission that he has met the legal threshold for filing for reelection in 2020 (though the letter says that it is not a formal candidate announcement)." It would be nice to have some time off, though. I guess not.

sometimes I try to think of a way in which president trump ISNT the worst ever and I can never come up with anything.

[Sanctissima]

Eh, you advocate for most of their policies, so the line is very thin.

In terms of Socialism being considered an end in and of itself, I have never encountered a Socialist idealogue or author who believed this. If you can provide one as an example, I will relent on this point.

Not even Robert Owen? Utopian Socialism and Ethical Socialism are things.

Both still advocate Communism (or something almost identical to it) as the end-goal. The only difference is the suggested means of achieving it.

[Ashmoria]

I know. According to Snopes, "... President Trump filed a letter on Inauguration Day, 20 January 2017, notifying the Federal Elections Commission that he has met the legal threshold for filing for reelection in 2020 (though the letter says that it is not a formal candidate announcement)." It would be nice to have some time off, though. I guess not.

Ugh...He better end up losing.
Or be impeached.

its only been one freaking month and he is already in violation of the emoluments clause.

he wont be impeached.

[Sanctissima]

Eh, you advocate for most of their policies, so the line is very thin.

In terms of Socialism being considered an end in and of itself, I have never encountered a Socialist idealogue or author who believed this. If you can provide one as an example, I will relent on this point.

Not really. Social democracy is mostly concerned about improving the market system of distribution, not supplanting it.

You may never have encountered one, but I'd politely suggest that might suggest that this says more about the socialists near you than the ideology as a whole. I stress that it's only transitional
In communist thought.

I'll happily provide one though it will have to wait until I get back home (circa 30 mins).

It advocates adopting nearly all Socialist policies short of completely abolishing the market system and going full Commie. That is borderline Socialist.

Regardless, I will await your reply.

[Ratateague]

Not even Robert Owen? Utopian Socialism and Ethical Socialism are things.

Both still advocate Communism (or something almost identical to it) as the end-goal. The only difference is the suggested means of achieving it.

Uh, no they don't. Especially considering communism wasn't even a thing until after Owen. Marxism didn't even exist yet.