Achtung Panzer! Armor Discussion Thread

[Hurdergaryp]

Export versions of that tank have been reported to be of considerably lesser quality, though.

They are not the same model...

Saudi Arabia uses the M1A2 and has fielded those machines in combat in Jemen, with mixed results. Some operators work better with the tools they have available than others, I guess.

[Uxupox]

They are not the same model...

Saudi Arabia uses the M1A2 and has fielded those machines in combat in Jemen, with mixed results. Some operators work better with the tools they have available than others, I guess.

eh maybe.

[Hurdergaryp]

Saudi Arabia uses the M1A2 and has fielded those machines in combat in Jemen, with mixed results. Some operators work better with the tools they have available than others, I guess.

eh maybe.

It is not uncommon for export versions of tanks to be less sophisticated than the machines used by the army of the country where they're manufactured, though. Hell, it was pretty much tradition for the tank factories in the Soviet Union!

[Germanic Templars]

Despite being shitty Soviet era made vehicle, if I can conjure up enough money I plan of buying a BDRM-2.

[Risottia]

The T-90 if you like high maneuverability and reduced signature. The Leo2A6 and the Challenger if you like heavy, well-protected tanks. The Merkava 4 if you like versatility (it can also carry troops).

Why no love for the M1A2?

It's a very good tank, but it tries a bit too much to be a jack-of-all-trades while not excelling at a single bit - this results in an uncertain doctrine of use.
The Rheinmetall 120L44 is a good gun but not exceptional - the Germans switched to the L55 for a reason - and it lacks a guided projectile. The turbine guzzles gas like there's no tomorrow (which means straining the logistics) and the exhausts prevent the friendly infantry from using the tank as a cover.

[Uxupox]

Why no love for the M1A2?

It's a very good tank, but it tries a bit too much to be a jack-of-all-trades while not excelling at a single bit - this results in an uncertain doctrine of use.
The Rheinmetall 120L44 is a good gun but not exceptional - the Germans switched to the L55 for a reason - and it lacks a guided projectile. The turbine guzzles gas like there's no tomorrow (which means straining the logistics) and the exhausts prevent the friendly infantry from using the tank as a cover.

Like many american AFV's it does actually have a doctrine to follow.

eh maybe.

It is not uncommon for export versions of tanks to be less sophisticated than the machines used by the army of the country where they're manufactured, though. Hell, it was pretty much tradition for the tank factories in the Soviet Union!

It's not about that. It is certainly true that some countries with more sophistaced weaponry like you have stated (Such as Saudi Arabia in it's limited war against Yemen) have lackluster combat showings sometimes other countries also fail in some of their demonstrations. Such as the United States recently in South Korea.

[Hurdergaryp]

Despite being shitty Soviet era made vehicle, if I can conjure up enough money I plan of buying a BDRM-2.

That armored car will be cheaper and easier to drive than an actual tank.

[Immoren]

Why no love for the M1A2?

It's a very good tank, but it tries a bit too much to be a jack-of-all-trades while not excelling at a single bit - this results in an uncertain doctrine of use.
The Rheinmetall 120L44 is a good gun but not exceptional - the Germans switched to the L55 for a reason - and it lacks a guided projectile. The turbine guzzles gas like there's no tomorrow (which means straining the logistics) and the exhausts prevent the friendly infantry from using the tank as a cover.

L44 works because Americans can use depleted uranium penetrators.
And gas turbine can use wide range of combustibles in a pinch if needed. Like liquor store

[Hurdergaryp]

It's a very good tank, but it tries a bit too much to be a jack-of-all-trades while not excelling at a single bit - this results in an uncertain doctrine of use.
The Rheinmetall 120L44 is a good gun but not exceptional - the Germans switched to the L55 for a reason - and it lacks a guided projectile. The turbine guzzles gas like there's no tomorrow (which means straining the logistics) and the exhausts prevent the friendly infantry from using the tank as a cover.

L44 works because Americans can use depleted uranium penetrators.
And gas turbine can use wide range of combustibles in a pinch if needed. Like liquor store

Or olive oil if you want to be fancy.

[Risottia]

It's a very good tank, but it tries a bit too much to be a jack-of-all-trades while not excelling at a single bit - this results in an uncertain doctrine of use.
The Rheinmetall 120L44 is a good gun but not exceptional - the Germans switched to the L55 for a reason - and it lacks a guided projectile. The turbine guzzles gas like there's no tomorrow (which means straining the logistics) and the exhausts prevent the friendly infantry from using the tank as a cover.

L44 works because Americans can use depleted uranium penetrators.
And gas turbine can use wide range of combustibles in a pinch if needed. Like liquor store

When did that actually happen, and where are you going to find liquor enough to propel an Abrams for ten km on a battlefield?

[Novus America]

Why no love for the M1A2?

It's a very good tank, but it tries a bit too much to be a jack-of-all-trades while not excelling at a single bit - this results in an uncertain doctrine of use.
The Rheinmetall 120L44 is a good gun but not exceptional - the Germans switched to the L55 for a reason - and it lacks a guided projectile. The turbine guzzles gas like there's no tomorrow (which means straining the logistics) and the exhausts prevent the friendly infantry from using the tank as a cover.

It needs the be versatile as the US operates in a vide variety of situations. Having a tank that is only real good in one circumstance is not good if you need to operate in different ones.

Having a versatile tank is good if you need to use it in a variety of circumstances.
Also it it being ugraded with a new gun and guided projectile capability.

New electronics can be added.

[Nekotani]

There was a large book on Fiat which mentions that they succeeded in trying to block production of the Italian Celere Sahariano for some reason. I honestly have no idea why, maybe they just enjoyed Italian tank crews being grisly blown up if it meant more M13/40 and M14/41's being produced.

Sounds like Mike got his money, and the military got to deploy more body bags.

It'd have been interesting to see what might have happened had Italy obtained the rights to produce Panther tanks. But, oh wait, Fiat-Ansaldo blocked that as well. They were really corrupt bastards.

[Uxupox]

Sounds like Mike got his money, and the military got to deploy more body bags.

It'd have been interesting to see what might have happened had Italy obtained the rights to produce Panther tanks. But, oh wait, Fiat-Ansaldo blocked that as well. They were really corrupt bastards.

Italian leaders had their head up their asses.

[Immoren]

L44 works because Americans can use depleted uranium penetrators.
And gas turbine can use wide range of combustibles in a pinch if needed. Like liquor store

When did that actually happen, and where are you going to find liquor enough to propel an Abrams for ten km on a battlefield?

I might've been slightly facetious, but I guess there was some place for gas turbines As m1 and t-80 sported them.

[Novus America]

When did that actually happen, and where are you going to find liquor enough to propel an Abrams for ten km on a battlefield?

I might've been slightly facetious, but I guess there was some place for gas turbines As m1 and t-80 sported them.

Turbines have adavatges and disadvantages. It is a trade off. Also you need good ones. The ones on the T-80 were shit. Or just Soviet and later conscripts did not know how to maintain them. Or both.

[Hurdergaryp]

Not commonly known is the fact that a dedicated entrepreneur in New Zealand developed and built a mighty land dreadnought: the Bob Semple Tractor Tank. Do you have what it takes to withstand this vehicle's grandeur? Do you?

[The Conez Imperium]

Your remark made me check the Wikipedia article about the T-14, but I don't see any road wheels in the picture accompanying said article. Also there's no mention of them in the text.

Also the exact speed the the T-14 is uncertain but is probably only faster because it is lighter.
The M-1 gets slowed down by all the stuff we put on it.

The issue is weight, not wheels.

All tanks have wheels. The tracks are operated via wheels. The tracks just provide traction. Hence the name.

I think Novus was referring to the fact that Amarta is a universal chassis. The Bumerang is an APC that uses the Amarta chassis mounted on wheels.

Perhaps, but the universal chassis is a nifty idea.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

M60 or bust.

[San Marlindo]

Despite being shitty Soviet era made vehicle, if I can conjure up enough money I plan of buying a BDRM-2.

Unless you just plan on leaving it parked in your garage or in your backyard, maintenance costs will be extremely high. You may have to go to a machinist to get some parts custom made at a high price because most defence companies which stock them only sell the individual components in bulk, and to national armies rather than private individuals.

You also need a very specific type of military-grade lubricant and oil for certain parts of the BRDM I think, just based on what I have read on militaria collectors' forums. That is actually even harder than the parts to source, because nobody has any idea where to get it. The guy I'm thinking about happened to find another collector who owned an old can of that specific type of oil he was looking for and was able to sell it to him. Otherwise, he would've been out of luck.

So anyway, not to be discouraging but you're looking at a life time investment that will make your wallet bleed unless you're just independently wealthy or something.

[Immoren]

Not commonly known is the fact that a dedicated entrepreneur in New Zealand developed and built a mighty land dreadnought: the Bob Semple Tractor Tank. Do you have what it takes to withstand this vehicle's grandeur? Do you?

Bob semple best tanku.

[Germanic Templars]

Despite being shitty Soviet era made vehicle, if I can conjure up enough money I plan of buying a BDRM-2.

That armored car will be cheaper and easier to drive than an actual tank.

True, but weaker unless you outfit it with special equipment that can make it last against most guns (the armor on that car is thin, like .50 cal (12.7mm) can tear it up).

Plus in the states, it would be street legal, assuming it had the functions necessary to drive it around.

[Germanic Templars]

Despite being shitty Soviet era made vehicle, if I can conjure up enough money I plan of buying a BDRM-2.

Unless you just plan on leaving it parked in your garage or in your backyard, maintenance costs will be extremely high. You may have to go to a machinist to get some parts custom made at a high price because most defence companies which stock them only sell the individual components in bulk, and to national armies rather than private individuals.

You also need a very specific type of military-grade lubricant and oil for certain parts of the BRDM I think, just based on what I have read on militaria collectors' forums. That is actually even harder than the parts to source, because nobody has any idea where to get it. The guy I'm thinking about happened to find another collector who owned an old can of that specific type of oil he was looking for and was able to sell it to him. Otherwise, he would've been out of luck.

So anyway, not to be discouraging but you're looking at a life time investment that will make your wallet bleed unless you're just independently wealthy or something.

I understand and I am aware of the prices and parts. Which is why it is good to look around to where to get parts. Granted, expensive to ship the parts, but if anything getting prices for certain parts may be a start, who knows maybe they might have the oil for the BDRM-2. Regardless, this is something I like to work towards getting one day in life.

[Teemant]

They are not the same model...

Saudi Arabia uses the M1A2 and has fielded those machines in combat in Jemen, with mixed results. Some operators work better with the tools they have available than others, I guess.

I've heard that the armor was weaker but I'm not sure if that is the case but that would explain a lot.

[Novus America]

Saudi Arabia uses the M1A2 and has fielded those machines in combat in Jemen, with mixed results. Some operators work better with the tools they have available than others, I guess.

I've heard that the armor was weaker but I'm not sure if that is the case but that would explain a lot.

I think export models do not have the DU armor or rounds.
Also even the best tank needs good operators.

The Saudi military (like the rest of its society) is plagued with corruption, tribalism, cronyism and a lousy work ethic.

[Datlofff]

It's a very good tank, but it tries a bit too much to be a jack-of-all-trades while not excelling at a single bit - this results in an uncertain doctrine of use.
The Rheinmetall 120L44 is a good gun but not exceptional - the Germans switched to the L55 for a reason - and it lacks a guided projectile. The turbine guzzles gas like there's no tomorrow (which means straining the logistics) and the exhausts prevent the friendly infantry from using the tank as a cover.

L44 works because Americans can use depleted uranium penetrators.
And gas turbine can use wide range of combustibles in a pinch if needed. Like liquor store

Minus the fact that Depleted uranium rounds and weapons are completely illegal. But america gets away with it, because america.

Using DU runs counter to the basic rules and principles enshrined in written and customary International Humanitarian Law. This relates among other things to:

· The general principle on the protection of civilian populations from the effects of hostilities.

· The principle that the right of the parties to an armed conflict to choose their methods or means of warfare is not unlimited.

· The principle that the employment in armed conflicts of weapons, projectiles, and material and methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering is forbidden.

· The prohibition of the use of poisonous weapons according to Art. 23 para.1 of the Hague Regulations and the rules of the Poison Gas Protocol.

· The prohibition of widespread damage to the natural environment and unjustified destruction according to the Hague Regulations and the First Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions.

· The principle of ‘humanitarian proportionality’, which is contained in the St. Petersburg Declaration.

· Additionally both Humanitarian Law and Environmental Law are based on the principle of precaution and proportionality, which at the very least, states should adhere to. Two resolutions of the Sub-Commission to the UN Commission on Human Rights (1996/16 and 1997/36) state that the use of uranium ammunition is not in conformity with existing International and Human Rights Law.