Guns in Schools

[Oil exporting People]

Oh come on mr teacher. There aren't any teachers with issues. I mean seriously. I look back at my teachers and professors and there weren't....................never mind.

But it's perfectly acceptable to leave my children alone with teachers through the day? If there are individuals with issues that make you think they don't need to be armed, they don't need to be teachers in the first place. This is just a really poorly thought out appeal to emotion.

[Salandriagado]

Hey, archery's fucking cool, and I'd take a bow over one of those shitty air rifles that schools inevitably use any day of the week.




Only by having a few thousand miles of water in the way.

Then by that statement a naval detachment would also be useless in a battle in a place such as Kansas.

That is why the US has the entire rest of its military.

[Trotskylvania]

Sure. But nothing that's going to do anything against a cruise missile, a fleet of strategic bombers and a carrier group. Frankly, if the 600 billion or so that the US government spends on the military doesn't put it well into the realm of "untouchable by any private force", it's doing something horribly wrong.

Insurgents using guerrilla tactics are managing quite well against a vastly superior force such as the United States.

They are more apt to use improvised explosive devices and other trap like methods, and eschew direct confrontation with regular forces. Irregulars with rifles lose to regulars with rifles. They especially lose to regulars with tanks, air support, and artillery.

[Spirit of Hope]

Please don't use tragedies to try to score cheap points, it only makes your position look vile.

Oh yes, pointing out that putting guns in schools might lead to more school shootings is SOO beyond the pale. You're absolutely right I should just shut up since I'm sooo 'vile' I want to prevent mass shootings! How EVIL!!!!

Because students being allowed to handle guns under the supervision of a qualified instructor, almost certainly at a range and not actually at the school proper itself, is comparable to a man killing his mother, and then drive to a school to carry out a mass shooting.

I mean as a past range instructor, who worked with middle school kids, I can say with confidence they aren't really in a situation to commit a mass shooting.

[The Portland Territory]

Me gusta el teachers con guns

[Uxupox]

Then by that statement a naval detachment would also be useless in a battle in a place such as Kansas.

That is why the US has the entire rest of its military.

In which insurgent groups have successfully waged a campaign against and still are.

[Uxupox]

Insurgents using guerrilla tactics are managing quite well against a vastly superior force such as the United States.

They are more apt to use improvised explosive devices and other trap like methods, and eschew direct confrontation with regular forces. Irregulars with rifles lose to regulars with rifles. They especially lose to regulars with tanks, air support, and artillery.

Guerrilla warfare covers all this.

[Oil exporting People]

In which insurgent groups have successfully waged a campaign against and still are.

Insurgent tactics are not some great war winner as commonly portrayed. When a power is in a position to supply troops and maintains the political will to do so, while also able to limit foreign material support, insurgencies quickly fall apart.

[Uxupox]

In which insurgent groups have successfully waged a campaign against and still are.

Insurgent tactics are not some great war winner as commonly portrayed. When a power is in a position to supply troops and maintains the political will to do so, while also able to limit foreign material support, insurgencies quickly fall apart.

The main objective of an insurgency is not to win but to hamper the efforts of the enemy to maximum effect. The Taliban for example has excelled at this behavior. DoD initially set a budget for the Afghanistan campaign for a short duration. What happened was we overextended and now face issues in both a hostile populace and the recent regaining of territory of the Taliban in the Afghanistan provinces.

[Solocon]

I'd be ok with guns in schools, as long as it's law enforcement officials who are carrying them. My school district has police officers from our town's local department stationed in all of its schools.

[Oil exporting People]

The main objective of an insurgency is not to win but to hamper the efforts of the enemy to maximum effect. The Taliban for example has excelled at this behavior. DoD initially set a budget for the Afghanistan campaign for a short duration. What happened was we overextended and now face issues in both a hostile populace and the recent regaining of territory of the Taliban in the Afghanistan provinces.

The big issue with Afghanistan is that Dubya drew down the forces too earlier to do Iraq and never really had a viable plan in place to deal with the fact the US public doesn't really have the stomach for doing the "hard" versions of COIN that bring insurgencies to an end quicker while also lacking the nerve to stay for years on end to get it done the "easy" way. Obama then didn't have the will to try to see it through, and now we are here in this situation in the present.

[Uxupox]

The main objective of an insurgency is not to win but to hamper the efforts of the enemy to maximum effect. The Taliban for example has excelled at this behavior. DoD initially set a budget for the Afghanistan campaign for a short duration. What happened was we overextended and now face issues in both a hostile populace and the recent regaining of territory of the Taliban in the Afghanistan provinces.

The big issue with Afghanistan is that Dubya drew down the forces too earlier to do Iraq and never really had a viable plan in place to deal with the fact the US public doesn't really have the stomach for doing the "hard" versions of COIN that bring insurgencies to an end quicker while also lacking the nerve to stay for years on end to get it done the "easy" way.

I agree on the point that "Hearts and minds" strategy is a failure.

[Catochristoferson]

Yeah - Nazi Germany was the model of a perfect society. Clearly it was the gun control that lead to The Holocaust and the deaths of 12 million people. I see it all now!!! All this time I was thinking it was the genocidal bastard in charge of it, but no - it was the gun control laws that caused the slaughter of so many people and World War II.

Doh!

Obviously if the Jews were armed the Holocaust would have failed and Hitler would have been overthrown earlier.

Hitler, while not banning guns outright, did everything in his power to disarm so called "enemies of the state" including Jewish people.

I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but you're statement was actually correct. Try again.

[Oil exporting People]

I agree on the point that "Hearts and minds" strategy is a failure.

As a strategy in of itself, it's not bad. Creighton Abrams did it in Vietnam, and it was a smashing success that proved COIN can be done without Wehrmacht or Soviet style brutality. The problem is that the US has a short attention span with regards to keeping and refining tactics, as we saw during the World Wars with regards to ASW as one example. With regards to Afghanistan, up until 2004 the Taliban was utterly smashed and most experts agree generally that the Post-2004 Taliban is a rather distinct from its "predecessor". What happened was that Bush let up the pressure to move forces to do Iraq, and then later on Obama just didn't have the stomach to stay the course in Afghanistan once he got into power.

[Spirit of Hope]

I'd be ok with guns in schools, as long as it's law enforcement officials who are carrying them. My school district has police officers from our town's local department stationed in all of its schools.

I've held the stance for years that if a teacher, or other school employee, is able and willing to get a concealed carry permit they should be allowed to carry on school. If they meet those qualifications they are incredibly unlikely to illegally use their gun, and provide a quick response at no cost to any potential situation that may require the use of force.

[Oil exporting People]

I've held the stance for years that if a teacher, or other school employee, is able and willing to get a concealed carry permit they should be allowed to carry on school. If they meet those qualifications they are incredibly unlikely to illegally use their gun, and provide a quick response at no cost to any potential situation that may require the use of force.

The way I've always looked at is this: If you can trust a teacher to be around students in the first place, then what does a gun change if they're properly trained and such? If you don't think they can be trust with firearms around kids, then they don't belong around kids in the first place.

[Uxupox]

I agree on the point that "Hearts and minds" strategy is a failure.

As a strategy in of itself, it's not bad. Creighton Abrams did it in Vietnam, and it was a smashing success that proved COIN can be done without Wehrmacht or Soviet style brutality. The problem is that the US has a short attention span with regards to keeping and refining tactics, as we saw during the World Wars with regards to ASW as one example. With regards to Afghanistan, up until 2004 the Taliban was utterly smashed and most experts agree generally that the Post-2004 Taliban is a rather distinct from its "predecessor". What happened was that Bush let up the pressure to move forces to do Iraq, and then later on Obama just didn't have the stomach to stay the course in Afghanistan once he got into power.

The American military didn't do actually let up any pressure nor did they move them from Afghanistan to Iraq to participate in the invasion. They just used mobilized National guard units to essentially "cover" the line of duty jobs in this hemisphere while several AD divisions were deployed in Iraq.

[Josepf Stalin]

Civilian gun usage is generally a bad idea

[Spirit of Hope]

I've held the stance for years that if a teacher, or other school employee, is able and willing to get a concealed carry permit they should be allowed to carry on school. If they meet those qualifications they are incredibly unlikely to illegally use their gun, and provide a quick response at no cost to any potential situation that may require the use of force.

The way I've always looked at is this: If you can trust a teacher to be around students in the first place, then what does a gun change if they're properly trained and such? If you don't think they can be trust with firearms around kids, then they don't belong around kids in the first place.

Being able to deal with guns and being able to deal with kids are two separate different skills, in my mind. There are some I trust with one and not the other. But if a teacher is willing to carry a gun they are almost certainly someone I would trust with a gun, my experience has generally been that those you can trust with a gun want one and are are willing to put the time in. Those you can't trust with a gun usually aren't willing to put the time in.

[Uxupox]

Civilian gun usage is generally a bad idea

Says Stalin.

[Oil exporting People]

The American military didn't do actually let up any pressure nor did they move them from Afghanistan to Iraq to participate in the invasion. They just used mobilized National guard units to essentially "cover" the line of duty jobs in this hemisphere while several AD divisions were deployed in Iraq.

Military Times:

December 2002: The U.S. ends the year with about 9,700 troops deployed, mostly going after Taliban insurgents.

December 2003: The year ends with about 13,100 troops in Afghanistan.

April 2004: The number swells to 20,300 as the U.S. builds up forces along the Afghan-Pakistani border and provides security for fledgling reconstruction projects.

December 2006: Attention has shifted to the escalating war in Iraq; the force in Afghanistan remains just over 20,000.

December 2007: The force in Afghanistan rises to 25,000. Still, Iraq is the priority.

May 2009: As fighting in Afghanistan becomes more intense, the number of U.S. troops surpasses 50,000.

December 2009: Troops now number more than 67,000, and the situation is deteriorating, with escalating violence and more service members killed. Obama orders in another 33,000 troops to battle al-Qaida militants and a resurgent Taliban.

August 2010: The U.S. force reaches 100,000.

May 2011: Bin Laden is found hiding in neighboring Pakistan and killed in a U.S. special operations raid. There are still about 100,000 troops in Afghanistan.

June 2011: Saying the U.S. is meeting its goals in Afghanistan, Obama announces his withdrawal plan: Bring home 10,000 troops by the end of 2011, and continue at a steady pace until handing over security responsibilities to the Afghans by 2014.

September 2012: Troop levels down to 77,000.

December 2013: Down to 46,000 troops, the slow withdrawal continues.

March 2014: With nearly 34,000 troops in Afghanistan, Obama orders the Pentagon to develop options for a complete military withdrawal, because Afghan President Hamid Karzai refuses to sign a security agreement with the United States.

May 2014: Obama announces his plan to pull virtually all U.S. troops out of Afghanistan by the end of 2016, when his second term in office will be drawing to a close.

December 2014: Troop levels have been cut in half since Obama's announcement in May, down to 16,100. Obama declares their combat mission over, but troops will continue training and advising Afghan forces.

March 2015: Troops decline to their current number — about 9,800 — on track for a nearly total withdrawal in 2016.

Oct. 15, 2015: In a reversal, Obama says the situation is too fragile for the American military to leave. He announces plans to keep the current force of about 9,800 in place through most of 2016 to continue counterterrorism missions and advise Afghans battling a resurgent Taliban. The plan is for the number to decrease to about 5,500 troops by December 2016.

July 6, 2016: Saying the security situation in Afghanistan "remains precarious," Obama announces that instead of dropping the U.S. troop level to 5,500, he will keep it at about 8,400 through the end of his term on Jan. 20, 2017. He said his successor can determine the next move.

[Uxupox]

The American military didn't do actually let up any pressure nor did they move them from Afghanistan to Iraq to participate in the invasion. They just used mobilized National guard units to essentially "cover" the line of duty jobs in this hemisphere while several AD divisions were deployed in Iraq.

Military Times:

December 2002: The U.S. ends the year with about 9,700 troops deployed, mostly going after Taliban insurgents.

December 2003: The year ends with about 13,100 troops in Afghanistan.

April 2004: The number swells to 20,300 as the U.S. builds up forces along the Afghan-Pakistani border and provides security for fledgling reconstruction projects.

December 2006: Attention has shifted to the escalating war in Iraq; the force in Afghanistan remains just over 20,000.

December 2007: The force in Afghanistan rises to 25,000. Still, Iraq is the priority.

May 2009: As fighting in Afghanistan becomes more intense, the number of U.S. troops surpasses 50,000.

December 2009: Troops now number more than 67,000, and the situation is deteriorating, with escalating violence and more service members killed. Obama orders in another 33,000 troops to battle al-Qaida militants and a resurgent Taliban.

August 2010: The U.S. force reaches 100,000.

May 2011: Bin Laden is found hiding in neighboring Pakistan and killed in a U.S. special operations raid. There are still about 100,000 troops in Afghanistan.

June 2011: Saying the U.S. is meeting its goals in Afghanistan, Obama announces his withdrawal plan: Bring home 10,000 troops by the end of 2011, and continue at a steady pace until handing over security responsibilities to the Afghans by 2014.

September 2012: Troop levels down to 77,000.

December 2013: Down to 46,000 troops, the slow withdrawal continues.

March 2014: With nearly 34,000 troops in Afghanistan, Obama orders the Pentagon to develop options for a complete military withdrawal, because Afghan President Hamid Karzai refuses to sign a security agreement with the United States.

May 2014: Obama announces his plan to pull virtually all U.S. troops out of Afghanistan by the end of 2016, when his second term in office will be drawing to a close.

December 2014: Troop levels have been cut in half since Obama's announcement in May, down to 16,100. Obama declares their combat mission over, but troops will continue training and advising Afghan forces.

March 2015: Troops decline to their current number — about 9,800 — on track for a nearly total withdrawal in 2016.

Oct. 15, 2015: In a reversal, Obama says the situation is too fragile for the American military to leave. He announces plans to keep the current force of about 9,800 in place through most of 2016 to continue counterterrorism missions and advise Afghans battling a resurgent Taliban. The plan is for the number to decrease to about 5,500 troops by December 2016.

July 6, 2016: Saying the security situation in Afghanistan "remains precarious," Obama announces that instead of dropping the U.S. troop level to 5,500, he will keep it at about 8,400 through the end of his term on Jan. 20, 2017. He said his successor can determine the next move.

Nowhere does it say that in American divisions troops from Afghanistan were redeployed to support efforts in Iraq in 2003-04.

[Solocon]

I'd be ok with guns in schools, as long as it's law enforcement officials who are carrying them. My school district has police officers from our town's local department stationed in all of its schools.

I've held the stance for years that if a teacher, or other school employee, is able and willing to get a concealed carry permit they should be allowed to carry on school. If they meet those qualifications they are incredibly unlikely to illegally use their gun, and provide a quick response at no cost to any potential situation that may require the use of force.

I disagree. Concealed carry permits don't provide the same level of training and education that the path to law enforcement does. Not only are the requirements to acquire one inconsistent among the states, but those with concealed-carry permits lack the additional experience and training that police officers have in defusing tense situations and dealing with actual threats. Teachers are not equivalent to the police; not even with a concealed-carry permit.

Furthermore, I highly doubt teachers would easily bring themselves to shoot at one of their students. Even if there was a threat in the building, they have to stay with and console their students; they wouldn't be able to actually go out and take down the assailant.

And of course, there is the problem of bringing guns into the classrooms themselves, where they could much more easily be stolen with malicious intent. A safe that can be observed by students, or, even worse, a firearm on the teacher's person, is not nearly as secure as a School Resource Officer room, which students must get permission to enter.

[Oil exporting People]

Nowhere does it say that in American divisions troops from Afghanistan were redeployed to support efforts in Iraq in 2003-04.

Upon reflection, I did use the term "drawn down the forces" way too loosely and should've just said "let up the pressure" as I later did. Fair enough, and I'll take my chops on that. However, on the fact that Bush did prioritize Iraq and thus reduced the pressure (Thus giving the Taliban time to reform and become effective again), my link as well as yours does confirm that. He keep between 10 and roughly 25k troops in the operational zone, and the end result was severe overstretch and the crisis we saw starting around 2009 as the Taliban had years to rebuild.

[Oil exporting People]

Civilian gun usage is generally a bad idea

So was Second Kharkov and Operation Mars. That certainly didn't stop you or Zhukov, now did it?