"Men Must Approve Abortion, Women Are Hosts"

[Tyrassueb]

Expound how abortion is a right.

And hey, who fired the abortion shots first?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade
Said page also clearly states the first "shots" were done by the states and their governments by banning the process starting in 1821.

[Neutraligon]

You don't understand how pregnancy works. Some highlights:

• the fetus implants itself inside the uterus of the woman (let's not go into ectopic pregnancies, or pregnancies by ftM men) - this bond is arguably worse than a pair of shackles;
• the fetus doesn't ask the woman for nutrients, it literally extracts them from her bloodstream through the umbilical arteries and veins;
• pregnancy involves an extremely long list of complications, and delivery even more so:
  
  • low blood pressure;
  • gestational diabetes;
  • iron deficiency;
  • vomiting and nausea;
  • notably, during delivery, in a significant percentage of women third degree perineal tears happen: these involve ripping of fourchette, perineal skin, vaginal mucosa, and anal sphincter, requiring surgical intervention and often leading to faecal incontinence.

To force a woman, any woman, to go through this - which is what happens when abortion is denied - would be tantamount to torture. If we somehow induced nausea and vomiting and incontinence in our prisoners, people everywhere would rise against this cruel and unusual punishment. But seemingly this is not the case when done to a pregnant woman.

Probably because childbirth is the action of bringing a new life into this world? What, you thought it was a punishment for some non-existent crime? Get outta 'ere.

I am really not sure how you got that from what was said.

[Genivaria]

Simple, the Supreme Court has declared it to be so. THat easy enough for you?
Huh? Well, since abortion has been around for millenia hard to know. Not sure why that is relevant.

Supreme Court declaring it isn't enough evidence. Or, rather, tell me the motivation why Supreme Court did that.

Later guys, because the fifth is telling to really get into the nitty gritty of things.

That's actually where you're wrong.

[Neutraligon]

Simple, the Supreme Court has declared it to be so. THat easy enough for you?
Huh? Well, since abortion has been around for millenia hard to know. Not sure why that is relevant.

Supreme Court declaring it isn't enough evidence. Or, rather, tell me the motivation why Supreme Court did that.

Why should I, are you incapable of reading their decisions for yourself? If you are unwilling to do even the most basic of homework why should I have to waste my time explaining it to you? Oh...you might want to add reading into the job of SCOTUS as well.

[Tyrassueb]

Supreme Court declaring it isn't enough evidence. Or, rather, tell me the motivation why Supreme Court did that.

Later guys, because the fifth is telling to really get into the nitty gritty of things.

That's actually where you're wrong.

At this point, I'm starting to think they might be trolling.

[Ashmoria]

they don't even get to take your organs after you are DEAD if you don't want them to.

Yeah, but I disagree with that idea, so I wasn't going to bring it up.

yeah but its still true.

[Reikgaard]

It's a step in the right direction. The fetus took two to create, and contains the DNA of both mother and father, and the woman is indeed a temporary host for an individual being. Aborting the fetus should be a joint decision. It's about time unborn children were treated as separate, individual beings (which they are) rather than an extension of the woman's body.

she is MAKING a human being from scratch. she isn't just some kind of vase where a fetus sits at the bottom growing on its own.

Uh...yeah, she is. Besides maintaining sufficient nutrition and dealing with the discomfort of pregnancy, the woman doesn't have to do anything but continue to exist while the foetus develops, much in the same way (to use your analogy) a vase holds the flowers and nutrition in place so that they can grow.

Between the act of conception and the act of childbirth, the pregnancy is pretty much on autopilot.

[Tyrassueb]

she is MAKING a human being from scratch. she isn't just some kind of vase where a fetus sits at the bottom growing on its own.

Uh...yeah, she is. Besides maintaining sufficient nutrition and dealing with the discomfort of pregnancy, the woman doesn't have to do anything but continue to exist while the foetus develops, much in the same way (to use your analogy) a vase holds the flowers and nutrition in place so that they can grow.

I would not call all the myriad health problems that arise from carrying a fetus (let alone multiple ones) 'discomfort'.

[Mechanisburg]

http://thefederalist.com/2017/01/30/heres-primer-pro-life-responses-common-counter-arguments/

Please read before you further the discussion, thank you

I shall do exactly this.

• A Fetus Isn’t Necessarily Human: irrelevant to the discussion. The humanity or lack of thereof of the foetus has no bearing on the right of the mother to eject it from her body.
• Tiny Babies Are Like Acorns: see above.
• Human Beings Aren’t Necessarily Human Persons: see above.
• It’s Her Body, She Can Do What She Want: finally, something relevant. Let's address this, shall we?
  
  • "A woman does indeed have a right to do whatever she wants with her body—but not with someone else’s body, and the unborn child inside of her is clearly not “her body.”": she is, in fact, doing something with her own body - namely, she can choose to stop nourishing the foetus, and she can elect to have the decaying mass of cells in her uterus, which is now a clear danger to her health, removed.
  • "A pregnant woman shouldn’t be allowed to kill this human being or harm him in any way.": this is laughable. We have a right to self-defense, against fully formed human beings, and we have a right to stop providing nourishment or hospitality. The latter is exercised, and the former then enacted.
• Abortion Will Still Happen If We Outlaw It: indeed, and what's worse - which is not, I observe, addressed on that page - it will be driven underground or to another country. This would not only be useless, preventing maybe a tiny percentage of abortions, but it will be discriminatory against poor women: while rich women will be able to get on a flight to Switzerland and return a few pounds lighter, they'll have no choice but to harm themselves to remove the foetus from their body.
• Should We Jail Moms For Aborting Babies?: not relevant to the discussion, but if people are really arguing for this they should realize that they are opening the floodgates for jailing people for things they do to their own bodies, that the majority does not like.
• The Mother-As-Host Argument: as I already stated upthread, the woman might be the host, but an host can and will eject a guest, even for no reason at all. The point it makes about "being able to take back their own organ" is moot, because that organ is now part of another body - it, rather, is akin to going to donate blood and then removing the needle from one's own arm halfway through. This is allowed, as it should be: even if you consented to blood donation, you can change your mind halfway through and remove the consent.
• What About Government Services: not relevant to the discussion and, as I already observed, the motivations behind these bills are, to me, dubious.

Edit: words.

[Laxaria and Sakria]

None of that Supreme Court, please.

Tell me the basics, not the results (Supreme Court declaring that as human right is essentially a result of the reasons why abortion is declared a human right).

*the sixth is telling me to abandon thread at the seventh time I tell myself to pack up and leave*

[Neutraligon]

Uh...yeah, she is. Besides maintaining sufficient nutrition and dealing with the discomfort of pregnancy, the woman doesn't have to do anything but continue to exist while the foetus develops, much in the same way (to use your analogy) a vase holds the flowers and nutrition in place so that they can grow.

I would not call all the myriad health problems that arise from carrying a fetus (let alone multiple ones) 'discomfort'.

I did suggest earlier that we should ensure that everyone get's the...joy of experiencing what pregnancy is like by simulating it for 9 months. I said no to the possibility of sudden rather dangerous complications but others here what them included.

[Ashmoria]

doesn't matter, if you fell down my cellar stairs you would still have to get out.

But you'd help me get up and out, yes? Or would you watch and laugh as I make my way up the stairs in pain only to probably watch me fall down again?

of course i would

but if you decided to live there and never come out, id call the cops.

[Neutraligon]

None of that Supreme Court, please.

Tell me the basics, not the results (Supreme Court declaring that as human right is essentially a result of the reasons why abortion is declared a human right).

*the sixth is telling me to abandon thread at the seventh time I tell myself to pack up and leave*

Why should I do your homework for you? Are you incapable of reading the links provided for you?

[Neutraligon]

But you'd help me get up and out, yes? Or would you watch and laugh as I make my way up the stairs in pain only to probably watch me fall down again?

of course i would

but if you decided to live there and never come out, id call the cops.

Or forcibly remove them myself. Though...in some states there are always castle doctrines.

[Laxaria and Sakria]

None of that Supreme Court, please.

Tell me the basics, not the results (Supreme Court declaring that as human right is essentially a result of the reasons why abortion is declared a human right).

*the sixth is telling me to abandon thread at the seventh time I tell myself to pack up and leave*

Why should I do your homework for you? Are you incapable of reading the links provided for you?

Roe vs Wade is a result of abortion's basics, not a reason.

And, finally, before I leave. Address the reasons why women seek abortion, and this debate is ended at the source.

I gave you homework. And this is the 7th time I told myself to leave so I'm leaving. Toodles

[Tyrassueb]

Why should I do your homework for you? Are you incapable of reading the links provided for you?

Roe vs Wade is a result of abortion's basics, not a reason.

And, finally, before I leave. Address the reasons why women seek abortion, and this debate is ended at the source.

I gave you homework. And this is the 7th time I told myself to leave so I'm leaving. Toodles

Reason - To force a person to carry a child to term is tantamount to emotional, physical and psychological torture if said child is unwanted and could lead to dangerous and possibly even deadly alternative abortions from the safe abortions currently performed by our medical professionals.

[Salandriagado]

No. Make your own fucking arguments, don't mindlessly recycle somebody else's.

Well, these would be the exact same arguments I'd be using.

How am I going to make a new argument when there's no new argument from the other side?

*realizes he's getting into the nitty gritty of things and flies away...hopefully for good*

You can start by actually answering a single point that anybody makes.

[Ashmoria]

of course i would

but if you decided to live there and never come out, id call the cops.

Or forcibly remove them myself. Though...in some states there are always castle doctrines.

do you get to shoot harmless men living in your cellar?

[Neutraligon]

Why should I do your homework for you? Are you incapable of reading the links provided for you?

Roe vs Wade is a result of abortion's basics, not a reason.

The decision of Roe v Wade and the reasons for that decision are clearly spelled out not only in the link provided but also in the court documents. You have been provided with a starting place, go read it.

And, finally, before I leave. Address the reasons why women seek abortion, and this debate is ended at the source.

Because she is pregnant and does not wish to be pregnant....kinda obvious don't you think?

[Salandriagado]

Maybe there are no other arguments from the other side because your side can't come up with new reasons to deny a fundamental right to a woman. And yes, the Supreme Court has declared the right to an abortion as a fundamental right.

Explain how abortion is a right. No "bodily autonomy" arguments.

And hey, who fired the abortion shots first?

*third WASN'T a charm so hopefully fourth IS a charm so, hopefully, toodles hopefully for good*

We'll stop using bodily autonomy arguments when they stop being correct. That is: never; unless you have an argument against that.

[Laxaria and Sakria]

...this is the 7th time I told myself to leave so I'm leaving. Toodles

[Neutraligon]

Or forcibly remove them myself. Though...in some states there are always castle doctrines.

do you get to shoot harmless men living in your cellar?

If they do not remove themselves, and I fear for my life, yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

[Dylar]

Probably because childbirth is the action of bringing a new life into this world? What, you thought it was a punishment for some non-existent crime? Get outta 'ere.

I am really not sure how you got that from what was said.

Last paragraph, last two sentences. Just jotting thoughts down and posting 'em on the forum thread. Maybe I shouldn't do that, yes?

[Neutraligon]

...this is the 7th time I told myself to leave so I'm leaving. Toodles

We aren't doing anything to stop you. Go ahead and leave, we are perfectly within our rights to respond to your posts. I would suggest doing your homework by reading the link that was provided.

[Ifreann]

Or forcibly remove them myself. Though...in some states there are always castle doctrines.

do you get to shoot harmless men living in your cellar?

It doesn't count if you invite them in, though.