"Men Must Approve Abortion, Women Are Hosts"

[Dylar]

Here's an analogy for you: Two people decided they wanted to start a store. They are disagreeing on what the store's gonna sell: comic books, or video games.The one who wants to sell comic books donated half of the money to the project, and has been overseeing the construction for the past 9 months, while the person wanting to sell the video games, donated the other half of the money to the project, and has designed the store's interior and exterior. Who gets to say what the store sells, and why?

This analogy is completely flawed. First off, one of the people contributed only the idea of starting a store, and is expecting the other person to contribute the money, the location, the merchandise, and the work in keeping it running for nine months, and thinks he can stop the person from going away because in the beginning she half-listened to his idea.

The father, as I already said, contributes only half the DNA, while the mother contributes all of the matter and nutrients that go in the body of the baby. The analogy is further flawed because here no work is involved, and certainly no work comparable to retail: the mother isn't sweeping the floors and organizing the merchandise for nine months, eight hours a day, she is expected to host the foetus and provide it with nutrients and let it shift her internal organs away for the equivalent of 810 days of work - nine months, 24h/24.

Read it again. Comic book person contributed half the money, and oversaw construction. Video game person contributed the other half, and worked on the design of the store, not the idea of starting a store.

[Autonomous Mapsuetia]

So one of the basic human rights,the right that human has in orser to live has to be destroyed cause a woman can not take the burden of having a baby -_-
Yes cause there aren't so many couples in the world who can't make a family(cause of some problems) and are trying so hard for that for years .
Instead of killing an innocent fetus who will become a human being why not stop doing such an awful practice and give that child the chance to live with a family that will love him/her and will live his/her life as normal as everybody -_-

[Sotral]

This analogy is completely flawed. First off, one of the people contributed only the idea of starting a store, and is expecting the other person to contribute the money, the location, the merchandise, and the work in keeping it running for nine months, and thinks he can stop the person from going away because in the beginning she half-listened to his idea.

The father, as I already said, contributes only half the DNA, while the mother contributes all of the matter and nutrients that go in the body of the baby. The analogy is further flawed because here no work is involved, and certainly no work comparable to retail: the mother isn't sweeping the floors and organizing the merchandise for nine months, eight hours a day, she is expected to host the foetus and provide it with nutrients and let it shift her internal organs away for the equivalent of 810 days of work - nine months, 24h/24.

Read it again. Comic book person contributed half the money, and oversaw construction. Video game person contributed the other half, and worked on the design of the store, not the idea of starting a store.

Except that fathers put in no work when it comes to "designing" the fetus. Yes, their DNA plays a role, but the actual "work" they do is minuscule.

[Ashmoria]

This analogy is completely flawed. First off, one of the people contributed only the idea of starting a store, and is expecting the other person to contribute the money, the location, the merchandise, and the work in keeping it running for nine months, and thinks he can stop the person from going away because in the beginning she half-listened to his idea.

The father, as I already said, contributes only half the DNA, while the mother contributes all of the matter and nutrients that go in the body of the baby. The analogy is further flawed because here no work is involved, and certainly no work comparable to retail: the mother isn't sweeping the floors and organizing the merchandise for nine months, eight hours a day, she is expected to host the foetus and provide it with nutrients and let it shift her internal organs away for the equivalent of 810 days of work - nine months, 24h/24.

Read it again. Comic book person contributed half the money, and oversaw construction. Video game person contributed the other half, and worked on the design of the store, not the idea of starting a store.

the analogy is flawed because its wouldn't be a fight over what is sold but that the video guy decided he didn't want a store after all and wanted OUT.

he gets to kill the whole deal by pulling out of it. sucks big time for the comicbook guy but...

[Alvecia]

This analogy is completely flawed. First off, one of the people contributed only the idea of starting a store, and is expecting the other person to contribute the money, the location, the merchandise, and the work in keeping it running for nine months, and thinks he can stop the person from going away because in the beginning she half-listened to his idea.

The father, as I already said, contributes only half the DNA, while the mother contributes all of the matter and nutrients that go in the body of the baby. The analogy is further flawed because here no work is involved, and certainly no work comparable to retail: the mother isn't sweeping the floors and organizing the merchandise for nine months, eight hours a day, she is expected to host the foetus and provide it with nutrients and let it shift her internal organs away for the equivalent of 810 days of work - nine months, 24h/24.

Read it again. Comic book person contributed half the money, and oversaw construction. Video game person contributed the other half, and worked on the design of the store, not the idea of starting a store.

Again, doesn'#t really work, as the design requires no effort when it comes to procreation.

[Laxaria and Sakria]

What's all the fuss?

Explain to me, like I'm five years old, how abortion is a woman's right.

[Alvecia]

What's all the fuss?

Explain to me, like I'm five years old, how abortion is a human right.

Abortion isn't, bodily sovereignty is.

Edit: Abortion is a method of protecting that right.

[Ashmoria]

What's all the fuss?

Explain to me, like I'm five years old, how abortion is a human right.

a woman is a full fledged human being person who gets to make her own medical decisions.

[Dylar]

Until the baby is born, then that "bloke" has the responsibility of raising and disciplining his kid, with the help of the mother.

Abortion stops it getting that far.

Could you answer this question, that I have? It's been bothering me for some time.
Is there any other reason that the pro-choice community supports abortion, other than "My body my choice," or "The man gives less than half and doesn't have to deal with the biological changes of pregnancy."?

[Mechanisburg]

he doesn't even contribute half the dna. the mother supplies all the mitochondrial dna, eh?

True that. Even if by a number of base pairs metric mitochondrial DNA is 0.00053% the size of DNA, the father still contributes less than half the initial genetic material - and the mitochondrial DNA is arguably more important than the information carried by his spermatozoa.

And hopefully even this "male sperm female egg" and "oh but the father contributes half the work" will be obsolete and forgotten once female sperm and more advanced geneengineering will become a thing.

[New Larthinia]

What's all the fuss?

Explain to me, like I'm five years old, how abortion is a human right.

a woman is a full fledged human being person who gets to make her own medical decisions.

What is your definition for a fetus?

[Ashmoria]

Abortion stops it getting that far.

Could you answer this question, that I have? It's been bothering me for some time.
Is there any other reason that the pro-choice community supports abortion, other than "My body my choice," or "The man gives less than half and doesn't have to deal with the biological changes of pregnancy."?

it lessens human misery. it allows women/couples control of their reproduction and thus their families and their futures.

[Alvecia]

Abortion stops it getting that far.

Could you answer this question, that I have? It's been bothering me for some time.
Is there any other reason that the pro-choice community supports abortion, other than "My body my choice," or "The man gives less than half and doesn't have to deal with the biological changes of pregnancy."?

Well, "the man gives less than half" isn't really an argument for abortion in general, just a counter argument to the father having an overriding say in the matter.
I can't speak for others, but as far as I'm concerned personally, it's a matter of bodily sovereignty.

[Ashmoria]

a woman is a full fledged human being person who gets to make her own medical decisions.

What is your definition for a fetus?

huh? the stage of human development between embryo and birth.

[Ashmoria]

he doesn't even contribute half the dna. the mother supplies all the mitochondrial dna, eh?

True that. Even if by a number of base pairs metric mitochondrial DNA is 0.00053% the size of DNA, the father still contributes less than half the initial genetic material - and the mitochondrial DNA is arguably more important than the information carried by his spermatozoa.

And hopefully even this "male sperm female egg" and "oh but the father contributes half the work" will be obsolete and forgotten once female sperm and more advanced geneengineering will become a thing.

I'm not a big fan of engineered reproduction.

[Mechanisburg]

Abortion stops it getting that far.

Could you answer this question, that I have? It's been bothering me for some time.
Is there any other reason that the pro-choice community supports abortion, other than "My body my choice," or "The man gives less than half and doesn't have to deal with the biological changes of pregnancy."?

Those are extremely good reasons - as we are, after all, pro-choice, wanting the women to have a choice over their bodies is exactly what we are arguing for. Can you, on the other hand, give me any reason for a anti-choice position?

The right of the foetus to live, I will point out, does not override the right of the mother to provide for it. "Your right to swing a fist ends where my face begins" and all that jazz. I do hope your reason will be a good one, because if you think it's ok to infringe on the right to bodily autonomy of a woman, per the various anti-discrimination clauses in the US constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, you should be ok with my earlier proposal to completely halt elective abortions by enforcing mandatory sterilization for men.

Edit: small corrections.

[Laxaria and Sakria]

What's all the fuss?

Explain to me, like I'm five years old, how abortion is a human right.

Abortion isn't, bodily sovereignty is.

The discussion resonates with a timbre of "ABORTION IS A WOMAN'S RIGHT".

Ofc, the woman's choice is her choice. */me ignores the fact that /me is a fan of New Wave Feminists*

A father can't force a woman to have an abortion if she don't want to.

I don't want to delve deeper into the nitty-gritty of the abortion debate, but I believe, personally, that the abortion debate will be ended at the source if fight rape culture, giving women in unplanned pregnancies the resources (means and empowerment) they need to help raise the unplanned child (or at least put it up for adoption, and have an option of maintaining contact with the child and the adoptive parents), pushing for stronger sex ed (which puts proper contraceptive use under its umbrella), the list goes on and on.

A note: our feminist foremothers were against abortion, but if they were here today, alive and kicking, they won't be debating with you, they'll be discussing to you the very reasons that drive women to abortion, and how they can reduce abortion by addressing these reasons. If they were here, they would be saying the same things I said.

[Dylar]

So one of the basic human rights,the right that human has in orser to live has to be destroyed cause a woman can not take the burden of having a baby -_-
Yes cause there aren't so many couples in the world who can't make a family(cause of some problems) and are trying so hard for that for years .
Instead of killing an innocent fetus who will become a human being why not stop doing such an awful practice and give that child the chance to live with a family that will love him/her and will live his/her life as normal as everybody -_-

It's because people who support abortion believe that the foetus isn't a real human being until its out of the womb. Kinda like how the Nazis said Jews, gypsies, and gays weren't people. It's disgraceful

[New Larthinia]

What is your definition for a fetus?

huh? the stage of human development between embryo and birth.

What is your understanding of a fetus?

[Alvecia]

Abortion isn't, bodily sovereignty is.

The discussion resonates with a timbre of "ABORTION IS A WOMAN'S RIGHT".

My edit clarified:

Edit: Abortion is a method of protecting that right.

Ofc, the woman's choice is her choice. *ignores the fact that he is a fan of New Wave Feminists*

wat

A father can't force a woman to have an abortion if she don't want to...in the Philippines, (well-off) couples aim for a specific number of kids, and they consider any more number of kids as...more kids.

Good for them

I don't want to go into the abortion debate. I believe, personally, that the abortion debate will be ended at the source if we stop fueling the rape culture, giving women in unplanned pregnancies the resources (means and empowerment) they need to help raise the unplanned child (or at least put it up for adoption, and have an option of maintaining contact with the child and the adoptive parents), pushing for stronger sex ed, the list goes on and on.

Those are all good ways to deal with unwanted pregancies before and after a pregnancy, but does nothing for the during. That's what abortion is for.

Our feminist foremothers were against abortion, but if they were here today, alive and kicking, they won't be debating with you, they'll be discussing to you the very reasons that drive women to abortion, and how they can reduce abortion by addressing these reasons. If they were here, they would be saying the same thing I said.

I'm all for reducing the need for abortion, but that doesn't mean we don't need the option.
Much like how I'm all for reducing the number of car crashes, but also believe we should fix people who do end up injured in one.

[Mechanisburg]

So one of the basic human rights,the right that human has in orser to live has to be destroyed cause a woman can not take the burden of having a baby -_-
Yes cause there aren't so many couples in the world who can't make a family(cause of some problems) and are trying so hard for that for years .
Instead of killing an innocent fetus who will become a human being why not stop doing such an awful practice and give that child the chance to live with a family that will love him/her and will live his/her life as normal as everybody -_-

It's because people who support abortion believe that the foetus isn't a real human being until its out of the womb. Kinda like how the Nazis said Jews, gypsies, and gays weren't people. It's disgraceful

You are strawmanning our position: human being or not human being, it's completely irrelevant.

The foetus - let's say for the sake of the discussion a still undifferentiated lump of human-ish cells is a human being with full rights - has a right to life, but has no right to compel its mother to provide it with nutrients or a environment, especially inside her own body.

I know it might be tempting to make it out like we are akin to nazis, and think the foetus is subhuman - very nice Godwin, by the way. But this completely misrepresents the pro-choice position, and undermines your credibility twice: because you don't even know what you are arguing against, and because you just used a reductio ad Hitlerum ("Kinda like how the nazis said Jews, gypsies, and gays weren't people").

Jews, gypsies and gays are certainly people, and as such have a right to life. Foetuses might or might not be people, and as such might have a right to life. But I'll repeat myself for the nth time: their right to life does not translate into a right to compel the mother to provide it with sustenance or an environment in which to live.

[Alvecia]

It's because people who support abortion believe that the foetus isn't a real human being until its out of the womb. Kinda like how the Nazis said Jews, gypsies, and gays weren't people. It's disgraceful

reductio ad Hitlerum

*googles*
Holy crap that's actually what it's called.
Awesome.

[Ifreann]

The issue with that analogy is that the raising of a foetus to child isn't a 50/50 responsibility.
The bloke contributes in a tiny way at the beginning, then the rest of the work is done by the gal.

Until the baby is born, then that "bloke" has the responsibility of raising and disciplining his kid, with the help of the mother.

Pregnancy and parenthood aren't the same thing, though. That the man in question would have a duty of care towards the child does not give him power over the pregnant woman.

[Salandriagado]

Literally all of them. Businesses operate by the consent of their employees, governments by the consents of their citizen.

Governments and businesses don't need the individual consent of all involved. If I revoke my consent to be governed by Tennessee law, that doesn't mean I can break it. Moreover, I can't just break contracts with my landlord and not be kicked out.

Furthermore, minors cannot consent to be governed, but are still controlled the same as if they were.

Sure you can. The way to revoke your consent to be governed by the law is to leave. Similarly, the way in which a minor revokes their consent is to leave (hopefully by going to the relevant authorities for help, but however they like).

[Laxaria and Sakria]

The discussion resonates with a timbre of "ABORTION IS A WOMAN'S RIGHT".

My edit clarified:

Edit: Abortion is a method of protecting that right.

Ofc, the woman's choice is her choice. *ignores the fact that he is a fan of New Wave Feminists*

wat

A father can't force a woman to have an abortion if she don't want to...in the Philippines, (well-off) couples aim for a specific number of kids, and they consider any more number of kids as...more kids.

Good for them

I don't want to go into the abortion debate. I believe, personally, that the abortion debate will be ended at the source if we stop fueling the rape culture, giving women in unplanned pregnancies the resources (means and empowerment) they need to help raise the unplanned child (or at least put it up for adoption, and have an option of maintaining contact with the child and the adoptive parents), pushing for stronger sex ed, the list goes on and on.

Those are all good ways to deal with unwanted pregancies before and after a pregnancy, but does nothing for the during. That's what abortion is for.

Our feminist foremothers were against abortion, but if they were here today, alive and kicking, they won't be debating with you, they'll be discussing to you the very reasons that drive women to abortion, and how they can reduce abortion by addressing these reasons. If they were here, they would be saying the same thing I said.

I'm all for reducing the need for abortion, but that doesn't mean we don't need the option.
Much like how I'm all for reducing the number of car crashes, but also believe we should fix people who do end up injured in one.

Make abortion safe, period.

Though, regulations that make abortion safe usually end up in the closing of abortion clinics. Abortion is legal in the US; that's a starting point, now can we please make abortion safe?

Well, for the during of pregnancy, the mother is afraid of what comes after childbirth, and that is what drives her to abortion.

I have to go finish a school lab report on how we made aspirin in a school laboratory bye see you later

EDIT: Go read The Federalist's take on abortion if you really want a good slice of what I would be speaking about. This is just a nutshell (you have been warned...?).

EDIT#2: We're talking about normal (the type that doesnt implant itself in the mother's fallopian tube) pregnancies, aren't we?