The NationStates Feminist Thread III

[New haven america]

How is it a waste of time?

Wait, Nevermind, I think we're not even capable of coming into any kind of consensus here.

Too late now.

Sex outside of procreation is a waste of time purely because nothing comes of it. Sex for procreation actually achieves something, assuming of course the male or female are fertile or don't have issues with their reproductive organs. That something is of course the continuation of the genetic material. Sex outside of procreation is thus just an excuse to release sexual tension and we already have masturbation for that.

It's actually about emotional expression and fun.

Also, masturbation doesn't release the same bonding chemicals and hormones that sex itself does.

[The Grene Knyght]

[ Sex outside of procreation is thus just an excuse to release sexual tension and we already have masturbation for that.

And yet...

[Chessmistress]

That's a joke, right?
I really hope it's a joke, otherwise it's a truly reality-fled argument.

It's absolutely clear that when, and if, artificial wombs will come then they'll be reserved to women who have very difficult pregnancies and various health problems preventing a good pregnancy.

You sure about that? In the event that artificial wombs become available, they would likely be used as an alternative to abortion. While difficulties during pregnancy is one of the reasons for abortion, it isn't the main one. As a side note, this could potentially make it easier for same sex couples to have kids.

Just to be precise: it would make possible (not simply "easier") to have kids for gay couples, but it would change nothing for lesbian couples.

[Anarcha Feminist Gynarchy]

What about people like me?

I have to confess that I never thought about such aspect.
As you already know, I support the idea of transitions fully paid by an universal healthcare system, and I think that after such transitions the right word that should be used is "women", not even "transwomen".
So I guess it wouldn't be a problem...

Anything else to add?

[Hirota]

I just thought of a joke.

What do you get when you put two radical feminists in the same room?

Disagreement.

[Anarcha Feminist Gynarchy]

I just thought of a joke.

What do you get when you put two radical feminists in the same room?

Disagreement.

Two Feminist maybe, but rad fems? No. I have talked to her and we agree on almost everything

[Luminesa]

That's a joke, right?
I really hope it's a joke, otherwise it's a truly reality-fled argument.

It's absolutely clear that when, and if, artificial wombs will come then they'll be reserved to women who have very difficult pregnancies and various health problems preventing a good pregnancy.

You sure about that? In the event that artificial wombs become available, they would likely be used as an alternative to abortion. While difficulties during pregnancy is one of the reasons for abortion, it isn't the main one. As a side note, this could potentially make it easier for same sex couples to have kids.

"Danger to the mother" makes-up for less than 5% of the abortions that aren't performed, soooo...yeah.

[Galloism]

You sure about that? In the event that artificial wombs become available, they would likely be used as an alternative to abortion. While difficulties during pregnancy is one of the reasons for abortion, it isn't the main one. As a side note, this could potentially make it easier for same sex couples to have kids.

"Danger to the mother" makes-up for less than 5% of the abortions that aren't performed, soooo...yeah.

We count what makes up abortions that aren't performed?

How?

[Luminesa]

Artificial wombs being the first of many nails in the coffin of feminism? Sounds awesome.

That's a joke, right?
I really hope it's a joke, otherwise it's a truly reality-fled argument.

It's absolutely clear that when, and if, artificial wombs will come then they'll be reserved to women who have very difficult pregnancies and various health problems preventing a good pregnancy.

That WOULD be helpful for women who are struggling with their pregnancies. But it depends. What would these artificial wombs do? Anything more than any other womb?

[Galloism]

That's a joke, right?
I really hope it's a joke, otherwise it's a truly reality-fled argument.

It's absolutely clear that when, and if, artificial wombs will come then they'll be reserved to women who have very difficult pregnancies and various health problems preventing a good pregnancy.

That WOULD be helpful for women who are struggling with their pregnancies. But it depends. What would these artificial wombs do? Anything more than any other womb?

Maybe they'll be able to be plugged into a standard 110v outlet and grown at home, preferably with see-through walls so you can observe the fetus as it goes through the stages of development.

[Luminesa]

That WOULD be helpful for women who are struggling with their pregnancies. But it depends. What would these artificial wombs do? Anything more than any other womb?

Maybe they'll be able to be plugged into a standard 110v outlet and grown at home, preferably with see-through walls so you can observe the fetus as it goes through the stages of development.

That may actually be really cool. If that's the case, it could kinda work like a mini-NICU. But at home.

[Hirota]

I just thought of a joke.

What do you get when you put two radical feminists in the same room?

Disagreement.

Two Feminist maybe, but rad fems? No. I have talked to her and we agree on almost everything

Obviously a change of tune to before.

Before you'd be an "ally"

Don't delude yourself into thinking that you subscribe to the same particular sect as Chess.

[The Grene Knyght]

I just thought of a joke.

What do you get when you put two radical feminists in the same room?

Disagreement.

I mean, you could make that joke with virtually any ideology or belief in the world

[Hirota]

I just thought of a joke.

What do you get when you put two radical feminists in the same room?

Disagreement.

I mean, you could make that joke with virtually any ideology or belief in the world

Getting entrenched into them to the point that they become "radicalised?" Becoming incapable of thinking critically or flexibly?

Well yeah, sure. It is a bit of a joke.

[Ors Might]

You sure about that? In the event that artificial wombs become available, they would likely be used as an alternative to abortion. While difficulties during pregnancy is one of the reasons for abortion, it isn't the main one. As a side note, this could potentially make it easier for same sex couples to have kids.

Just to be precise: it would make possible (not simply "easier") to have kids for gay couples, but it would change nothing for lesbian couples.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there already women who are willing to carry a child for a couples unable to do so naturally? Artificial wombs would serve the same purpose but without the potential emotional attachments the mother would be feeling. Which would make the process easier.

[New haven america]

Just to be precise: it would make possible (not simply "easier") to have kids for gay couples, but it would change nothing for lesbian couples.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there already women who are willing to carry a child for a couples unable to do so naturally?

Yes, but in some areas of the world, surrogacy is illegal (Like a majority of the EU, Japan, China, etc...).

[Olerand]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there already women who are willing to carry a child for a couples unable to do so naturally?

Yes, but in some areas of the world, surrogacy is illegal (Like a majority of the EU, Japan, China, etc...).

With right reasons. Surrogacy, as it is practiced in many instances today, is the industrialized purchase of a poor woman's womb to carry your child. It's unethical, and contrary to women's rights.

[Ors Might]

Yes, but in some areas of the world, surrogacy is illegal (Like a majority of the EU, Japan, China, etc...).

With right reasons. Surrogacy, as it is practiced in many instances today, is the industrialized purchase of a poor woman's womb to carry your child. It's unethical, and contrary to women's rights.

I'm sorry but are you calling the practice of women choosing to become impregnated in exchange for monetary compensation contrary to women's rights? All because of the fact that some of the women are poor? What the hell happened to bodily sovereignty? Surely women have the right to carry an unborn child, if they have the right to abort it? Especially because, in the case of the latter, they might be doing it because they're poor?

[Olerand]

With right reasons. Surrogacy, as it is practiced in many instances today, is the industrialized purchase of a poor woman's womb to carry your child. It's unethical, and contrary to women's rights.

I'm sorry but are you calling the practice of women choosing to become impregnated in exchange for monetary compensation contrary to women's rights? All because of the fact that some of the women are poor? What the hell happened to bodily sovereignty? Surely women have the right to carry an unborn child, if they have the right to abort it? Especially because, in the case of the latter, they're doing it because they're poor?

Yes. I believe that it is not truly a free choice for a woman in dire economic conditions to rent out her womb to wealthy people for them to use.

Women's (and men) bodies are theirs to dispose of, but not to sell. Human beings, and their limbs/organs, are not for sale.

[New haven america]

Yes, but in some areas of the world, surrogacy is illegal (Like a majority of the EU, Japan, China, etc...).

With right reasons. Surrogacy, as it is practiced in many instances today, is the industrialized purchase of a poor woman's womb to carry your child. It's unethical, and contrary to women's rights.

Yep, women's choice obviously=contrary to women's rights.

Such perfect logic.

Also, there are women who do it without making money off it, you know that, right?

[Olerand]

With right reasons. Surrogacy, as it is practiced in many instances today, is the industrialized purchase of a poor woman's womb to carry your child. It's unethical, and contrary to women's rights.

Yep, women's choice obviously=contrary to women's rights.

Such perfect logic.

I do believe that a human being being forced to sell their organs and themselves is not a choice that one chooses out of free will. I don't believe in indentured servitude or any related concept, even if they "chose" it to make ends meet.

[New haven america]

Yep, women's choice obviously=contrary to women's rights.

Such perfect logic.

I do believe that a human being being forced to sell their organs and themselves is not a choice that one chooses out of free will. I don't believe in indentured servitude or any related concept, even if they "chose" it to make ends meet.

You do realize there are people who do it because they want to, right? Doesn't seem like you do.

Yes, people can perform surrogacy without any form of monetary gain, they just want to help couples that can't have kids normally.

Also, you're horrendously naïve if you don't think that there are people who freely choose to sell their bodies.

[Olerand]

I do believe that a human being being forced to sell their organs and themselves is not a choice that one chooses out of free will. I don't believe in indentured servitude or any related concept, even if they "chose" it to make ends meet.

You do realize there are people who do it because they want to, right? Doesn't seem like you do.

Yes, people can perform surrogacy without any form of monetary gain, they just want to help couples that can't have kids normally.

Also, you're horrendously naïve if you think that there are people who freely choose to sell their bodies.

Uhm... No, I don't. I don't believe people sell their organs for fun, or because they genuinely could do anything else, but realized that this is the right career choice for them. Again, I don't believe you can choose indentured servitude and related human-selling practices, "willingly" or otherwise.

If you do it without the expectation of monetary gain, then to me, that is a different concept. To French law, unfortunately, it is not, but to me, it is.

[New haven america]

You do realize there are people who do it because they want to, right? Doesn't seem like you do.

Yes, people can perform surrogacy without any form of monetary gain, they just want to help couples that can't have kids normally.

Also, you're horrendously naïve if you think that there are people who freely choose to sell their bodies.

Uhm... No, I don't. I don't believe people sell their organs for fun, or because they genuinely could do anything else, but realized that this is the right career choice for them. Again, I don't believe you can choose indentured servitude and related human-selling practices, "willingly" or otherwise.

If you do it without the expectation of monetary gain, then to me, that is a different concept. To French law, unfortunately, it is not, but to me, it is.

So what about prostitutes or porn stars (Both male and female) who actually chose the job because they enjoy sex? Are they indentured servants? Even though they willing joined because they wanted to.

There are many reasons people might become a surrogate: Altruistic reasons, monetary gains, etc... But labeling an entire practice as servitude because some people do it for reasons you don't like is just plain wrong and close minded.

Also, there are a lot of legal and medical laws and practices behind surrogacy, so chances are that if someone becomes a surrogate because they have no money to support themselves, then they're not going to be able to meet the requirements to become a surrogate to begin with.

[Ors Might]

I'm sorry but are you calling the practice of women choosing to become impregnated in exchange for monetary compensation contrary to women's rights? All because of the fact that some of the women are poor? What the hell happened to bodily sovereignty? Surely women have the right to carry an unborn child, if they have the right to abort it? Especially because, in the case of the latter, they're doing it because they're poor?

Yes. I believe that it is not truly a free choice for a woman in dire economic conditions to rent out her womb to wealthy people for them to use.

Women's (and men) bodies are theirs to dispose of, but not to sell. Human beings, and their limbs/organs, are not for sale.

What the actual hell are you on about? What sort of intellectual junkfood has you thinking that bodily sovereignty is only valid when it comes to decisions that you personally disapprove of? If you want to talk about how wrong it is that some people have to sell a few of their organs to make ends meet, fine. You'd have a point there. But putting the tricky nature of free choice aside, do you honestly believe that no one donates their organs out of goodwill and the money is just a bonus? And likewise, some women become surrogates because they genuinely feel sorrow for couples that can't conceive?