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The NationStates Feminist Thread III

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:32 pm

Orostan wrote:I just provided evidence that the FBI infiltrates movements with the intent to damage them. It's in their literal playbook.


Sorry if I wasn't clear: No you fucking didn't.

You have provided absolutely no evidence COINTELPRO is active and you have provided no evidence that COINTELPRO made a point of "backing" organizations.

I'll remind you that all this shit you haven't proved is secondary to your main bullshit claim that the CIA started 3rd wave feminism.
Last edited by Des-Bal on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:36 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Orostan wrote:I just provided evidence that the FBI infiltrates movements with the intent to damage them. It's in their literal playbook.


Sorry if I wasn't clear: No you fucking didn't.

You have provided absolutely no evidence COINTELPRO is active and you have provided no evidence that COINTELPRO made a point of "backing" organizations.

I'll remind you that all this shit you haven't proved is secondary to your main bullshit claim that the CIA started 3rd wave feminism.

https://www.democracynow.org/2012/12/27 ... ecret_docs

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... own-occupy

Here is evidence. It explicitly states in the Democracy Now interview that the FBI has infiltrated left wing groups.

My claim that the FBI/CIA backed third wave feminism is backed by two facts:

1) They paid early promoters of it
2) It explicitly states in one of their objectives that they are to "negativly redirect" activities. Liberal identity politics does this extremely well.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Orostan wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
Sorry if I wasn't clear: No you fucking didn't.

You have provided absolutely no evidence COINTELPRO is active and you have provided no evidence that COINTELPRO made a point of "backing" organizations.

I'll remind you that all this shit you haven't proved is secondary to your main bullshit claim that the CIA started 3rd wave feminism.

https://www.democracynow.org/2012/12/27 ... ecret_docs

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... own-occupy

Here is evidence. It explicitly states in the Democracy Now interview that the FBI has infiltrated left wing groups.

My claim that the FBI/CIA backed third wave feminism is backed by two facts:

1) They paid early promoters of it
2) It explicitly states in one of their objectives that they are to "negativly redirect" activities. Liberal identity politics does this extremely well.



I just called bullshit on your sources, reposting them doesn't help. Give me some fucking quotes.
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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:42 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Orostan wrote:https://www.democracynow.org/2012/12/27 ... ecret_docs

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... own-occupy

Here is evidence. It explicitly states in the Democracy Now interview that the FBI has infiltrated left wing groups.

My claim that the FBI/CIA backed third wave feminism is backed by two facts:

1) They paid early promoters of it
2) It explicitly states in one of their objectives that they are to "negativly redirect" activities. Liberal identity politics does this extremely well.



I just called bullshit on your sources, reposting them doesn't help. Give me some fucking quotes.

"That document is one of the ones that would indicate the FBI was minimally using private entities or local police departments as proxy forces for infiltration, for undercover operations, to monitor, surveil, collect information."

"The document – reproduced here in an easily searchable format – shows a terrifying network of coordinated DHS, FBI, police, regional fusion center, and private-sector activity so completely merged into one another that the monstrous whole is, in fact, one entity: in some cases, bearing a single name, the Domestic Security Alliance Council. And it reveals this merged entity to have one centrally planned, locally executed mission. The documents, in short, show the cops and DHS working for and with banks to target, arrest, and politically disable peaceful American citizens."
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:47 pm

Orostan wrote:"That document is one of the ones that would indicate the FBI was minimally using private entities or local police departments as proxy forces for infiltration, for undercover operations, to monitor, surveil, collect information."

"The document – reproduced here in an easily searchable format – shows a terrifying network of coordinated DHS, FBI, police, regional fusion center, and private-sector activity so completely merged into one another that the monstrous whole is, in fact, one entity: in some cases, bearing a single name, the Domestic Security Alliance Council. And it reveals this merged entity to have one centrally planned, locally executed mission. The documents, in short, show the cops and DHS working for and with banks to target, arrest, and politically disable peaceful American citizens."



I said
"You have provided absolutely no evidence COINTELPRO is active and you have provided no evidence that COINTELPRO made a point of "backing" organizations. "

Those claims stand. It's not a revelation that the FBI conducts investigations. Your sources don't prove what you think they do.
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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:52 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Orostan wrote:"That document is one of the ones that would indicate the FBI was minimally using private entities or local police departments as proxy forces for infiltration, for undercover operations, to monitor, surveil, collect information."

"The document – reproduced here in an easily searchable format – shows a terrifying network of coordinated DHS, FBI, police, regional fusion center, and private-sector activity so completely merged into one another that the monstrous whole is, in fact, one entity: in some cases, bearing a single name, the Domestic Security Alliance Council. And it reveals this merged entity to have one centrally planned, locally executed mission. The documents, in short, show the cops and DHS working for and with banks to target, arrest, and politically disable peaceful American citizens."



I said
"You have provided absolutely no evidence COINTELPRO is active and you have provided no evidence that COINTELPRO made a point of "backing" organizations. "

Those claims stand. It's not a revelation that the FBI conducts investigations. Your sources don't prove what you think they do.

I've just given you evidence of coordinated efforts to inflitrate and destroy left wing groups and you brush it off as an 'investigation'? They were using COINTELPRO tactics. They were doing this before the protests even really started ffs.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:58 pm

Orostan wrote:I've just given you evidence of coordinated efforts to inflitrate and destroy left wing groups and you brush it off as an 'investigation'? They were using COINTELPRO tactics. They were doing this before the protests even really started ffs.

Fucking. Evidence. Your sources don't say what you think they do.
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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:06 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Orostan wrote:I've just given you evidence of coordinated efforts to inflitrate and destroy left wing groups and you brush it off as an 'investigation'? They were using COINTELPRO tactics. They were doing this before the protests even really started ffs.

Fucking. Evidence. Your sources don't say what you think they do.

My sources clearly state that:
1) The FBI was infiltrating these groups
2) There is a great deal we do not know
3) The FBI was spying on OWS very early on

And we know from the protests that Identity politics derailed organization and broke up protest groups, as well as the evidence indicating that the FBI was following the COINTELPRO strategy. The only conclusion that we can draw from this is that the FBI continues to monitor left wing groups and attack them using cold war strategy.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:50 pm

Orostan wrote:My sources clearly state that:
1) The FBI was infiltrating these groups
2) There is a great deal we do not know
3) The FBI was spying on OWS very early on

And we know from the protests that Identity politics derailed organization and broke up protest groups, as well as the evidence indicating that the FBI was following the COINTELPRO strategy. The only conclusion that we can draw from this is that the FBI continues to monitor left wing groups and attack them using cold war strategy.


Okay so one piece of evidence you're presenting is how little information you have- do you feel strong about your position?

You're arguing that COINTELPRO Still exists with absolutely no evidence except for the fact that a loosely organized gathering of unaffiliated persons wasn't well managed, the only logical interpretation of which is that they're still around and using strategies you have no evidence they ever used.

This evidence proves that third wave feminism was invented by the CIA who didn't fucking run COINTELPRO.

It's fucking ridiculous and the more you try to explain it the less sense it makes.
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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:58 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Orostan wrote:My sources clearly state that:
1) The FBI was infiltrating these groups
2) There is a great deal we do not know
3) The FBI was spying on OWS very early on

And we know from the protests that Identity politics derailed organization and broke up protest groups, as well as the evidence indicating that the FBI was following the COINTELPRO strategy. The only conclusion that we can draw from this is that the FBI continues to monitor left wing groups and attack them using cold war strategy.


Okay so one piece of evidence you're presenting is how little information you have- do you feel strong about your position?

You're arguing that COINTELPRO Still exists with absolutely no evidence except for the fact that a loosely organized gathering of unaffiliated persons wasn't well managed, the only logical interpretation of which is that they're still around and using strategies you have no evidence they ever used.

This evidence proves that third wave feminism was invented by the CIA who didn't fucking run COINTELPRO.

It's fucking ridiculous and the more you try to explain it the less sense it makes.

I fucking provided my evidence multiple times. I have proven to you that the FBI continues to use COINTELPRO tactics to attack left wing organizations. If you want evidence that identity politics ruined OWS, look up one of the many first hand accounts of it.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:03 pm

Orostan wrote:I fucking provided my evidence multiple times. I have proven to you that the FBI continues to use COINTELPRO tactics to attack left wing organizations. If you want evidence that identity politics ruined OWS, look up one of the many first hand accounts of it.


I am done with your bullshit- we're doing this point by point now.

Provide me evidence -right now- that the FBI supported poor leaders in order to bring down movements. I don't care about anything else, do not provide me those same two goddamned links do not repeat the same bullshit about ows. Give me evidence that this thing your alleging is even something that COINTELPRO did.
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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:08 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Orostan wrote:I fucking provided my evidence multiple times. I have proven to you that the FBI continues to use COINTELPRO tactics to attack left wing organizations. If you want evidence that identity politics ruined OWS, look up one of the many first hand accounts of it.


I am done with your bullshit- we're doing this point by point now.

Provide me evidence -right now- that the FBI supported poor leaders in order to bring down movements. I don't care about anything else, do not provide me those same two goddamned links do not repeat the same bullshit about ows. Give me evidence that this thing your alleging is even something that COINTELPRO did.

I can't give you a list of every FBI infiltrator that was in OWS because that shit is kept secret. I have provided you evidence that the FBI infiltrated OWS and that identity politics was promoted during the cold war to undermine actual leftism. I have provided you with the COINTELPRO playbook. This is like demanding that I provide you with the locations of every spy device at an embassy, and if I can't stating they do not exist.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:11 pm

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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:14 pm


>women control the world because now they can wear pants
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

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Ors Might
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Ors Might » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:17 pm

Orostan wrote:

>women control the world because now they can wear pants

Tbf, world domination does seem like it’d be easier in pants.

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Western Vale Confederacy
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:20 pm

Ors Might wrote:
Orostan wrote:>women control the world because now they can wear pants

Tbf, world domination does seem like it’d be easier in pants.


You can't both run and expunge your body waste with pants though!

*taps head* Yeah, think of that!

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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:25 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Tbf, world domination does seem like it’d be easier in pants.


You can't both run and expunge your body waste with pants though!

*taps head* Yeah, think of that!

No matter how hard you try, you’ll never make the Scottish seem cool.

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The blAAtschApen
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Postby The blAAtschApen » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:28 am



"We apologize for this inconvenience. Your IP address has been automatically blocked from the address you tried to visit at www.gutenberg.org. This is because the geoIP database shows your address is in the country of Germany."

*cries*

And just when I disabled my dutch ip address.
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Costa Fierro
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Costa Fierro » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:47 am

Orostan wrote:>women control the world because now they can wear pants


Women don't control the world. Just the West.
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Tahar Joblis
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Postby Tahar Joblis » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:30 am


E. B. Bax wrote:As we indicated above, not only is the sense of esprit de corps entirely absent among modern men as regards their own sex, while strongly present in modern women, but this negative characteristic has become positive on the other side. Thus the modern sex problem presents us with a reversal of the ordinary sociological law of the solidarity of those possessing common interests.

Hm. Well, that's fairly well the same today, though I have to cede that the general topic he led into in that section (exempting misbehavior by women from punishment) was noted in the Declaration of Sentiments in 1848 as a problem.

Though feminists don't seem to have collectively exerted themselves on behalf of addressing that problem at any point in the last 170 years, and indeed still exert pressure in the other direction.

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Des-Bal
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:13 am

Orostan wrote:I can't give you a list of every FBI infiltrator that was in OWS


WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ABOUT OWS. Do not say it again, I just told you I don't want to hear it. I just told you I am only interested in ANY evidence you have that COINTELPRO backed poor leaders to undermine movements. OWS is irrelevant because COINTELPRO wasn't active so even if the FBI created OWS wholecloth it would have nothing to do with "COINTELPRO tactics."

You haven't provided the fucking COINTELPRO playbook show me exactly where you think you did. COINTELPRO's game was to find and expose dirt and sometimes to send rude anonymous letters- it had nothing to do with the kind of shit you're talking about and it had nothing to do with "backing" anybody.

"Infiltration" is not the smoking gun you seem to think it is. The FBI investigates all sorts of shit, they get guys inside right wing militias all the fucking time.

Your claim is that the FBI created third wave feminism by backing weak feminist leaders to undermine the left. You have no evidence they have EVER done this and you especially have no evidence they've ever done it TO feminists. You just keep talking about the FBI investigating OWS and have at no point provided evidence that they "backed" anybody there. You've brought up the CIA supporting Steinem but they were trying to fuck the Soviets not the feminists.

So now let's start at square 1 just show me where the FBI "backed" people to undermine left wing organizations nothing else, no excuse, no references to Occupy Wall Street, just show me that this is a thing they did.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:29 am


I'm not sure which parts you're referencing but it's not exactly a slam dunk. I mean I'm confident that it says women's ovaries will explode if they're allowed out of the kitchen somewhere but a number of the complaints make sense.

I mean when you look at someone talking about technology ruining the world and then pull a quote with similar sentiments that's talking about the telegraph that's a real blow because they're implying things were better at a specific point in time usually within their lifetime. Any evidence that people had the exact same complaints about technologies they felt were fine suggests it's a problem with people's perceptions not with reality.

I haven't read through the entire document but in flipping through chapters I came upon the idea that women are rarely punished for crimes and that feminism seems pretty fine with excusing their actions rather than holding them accountable. I mean that's true today. I'd wager people the police practiced unnecessary brutality and especially targetted minorities back then- it doesn't mean they're wrong it means there's a problem that never got fixed.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:53 am

Ors Might wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
You can't both run and expunge your body waste with pants though!

*taps head* Yeah, think of that!

No matter how hard you try, you’ll never make the Scottish seem cool.


Skirts/kilts make much more sense for men, practically, than pants do tbqh. I mean, just think about the anatomical situation.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:04 am

Torrocca wrote:
Skirts/kilts make much more sense for men, practically, than pants do tbqh. I mean, just think about the anatomical situation.


In a similar vein the only reason I can fathom for the boy's bike having the bar across the top is a conspiracy by America's Funniest Videos.
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Ors Might
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Ors Might » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:50 am

Torrocca wrote:
Ors Might wrote:No matter how hard you try, you’ll never make the Scottish seem cool.


Skirts/kilts make much more sense for men, practically, than pants do tbqh. I mean, just think about the anatomical situation.

That’s true but pants are overall the more practical option. Anatomy aside, pants reward you greater protection, both indoors and out. The conqueror’s lower attire.

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