NATION

PASSWORD

The NationStates Feminist Thread III

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Minister
 
Posts: 2822
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:46 am

Hirota wrote:
Orostan wrote:I provided evidence that the CIA promoted it already.
That's fair: I didn't read it because the Chicago tribune doesn't know how to GDPR correctly. But my VPN got around it.

Let's assume Steinem is telling the truth and she was involved in the CIA. You still have not shown evidence that the CIA was seeking to damage the left. It's supposition empty of evidence. Indeed, the opinion piece suggests that Steinem was recruited with the intention to act as a bulwark against the Soviets, strengthening the moderate left rather than weakening it.

Orostan probable doesn't want the moderate left to be strengthened against the radical left.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Minarchism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Socialism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 4.0
Social: -8.0
If you support liberal democratic capitalism, paste this into your sig: $LFD
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off. Policies are way off though.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male who tries to think intelligently about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:04 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:What are "liberal reactionaries?" And what do they have to do with feminism?
It's Marxist jargon. Tankies are a unique species who use "liberal" to mean "anything insufficiently communist", and "reactionary" to mean "anyone I disagree with".

They don't seem to have any idea what they're talking about either because they said Gloria Steinem is a famous third wave feminist. She is clearly a second waver since she has been active since the 1960s.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Orostan
Minister
 
Posts: 3301
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 am

Hirota wrote:
Orostan wrote:I provided evidence that the CIA promoted it already.
That's fair: I didn't read it because the Chicago tribune doesn't know how to GDPR correctly. But my VPN got around it.

Let's assume Steinem is telling the truth and she was involved in the CIA. You still have not shown evidence that the CIA was seeking to damage the left. It's supposition empty of evidence. Indeed, the opinion piece suggests that Steinem was recruited with the intention to act as a bulwark against the Soviets, strengthening the moderate left rather than weakening it.

Orostan wrote:I’d be interested to see if there’s a study that says on the median women are paid the same as men for the same job.
The wage gap is a tricky one to discuss, but the burden of proof is upon feminists to prove it exists, as opposed to others disproving it exists. The studies that normally demonstrate a wage gap generally have some pretty shoddy methodology, and/or project some confirmation bias when they attempt to explain why it happens (ignoring womens choices and differences in fields of employment tend to be ignored).

1) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

The FBI/CIA has been attacking the American left for long time. When they go to support liberals, like Steinem, their objective is to weaken the actual left wing by destroying it with identity politics. Liberals are not any “moderate left”. They are not even leftists.

2) That is why I specified I’d like to see a “good study”.

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Hirota wrote: That's fair: I didn't read it because the Chicago tribune doesn't know how to GDPR correctly. But my VPN got around it.

Let's assume Steinem is telling the truth and she was involved in the CIA. You still have not shown evidence that the CIA was seeking to damage the left. It's supposition empty of evidence. Indeed, the opinion piece suggests that Steinem was recruited with the intention to act as a bulwark against the Soviets, strengthening the moderate left rather than weakening it.

Orostan probable doesn't want the moderate left to be strengthened against the radical left.


Socdems are ‘moderate’ left. The US government doesn’t like those either.

Autarkheia wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:What are "liberal reactionaries?" And what do they have to do with feminism?
It's Marxist jargon. Tankies are a unique species who use "liberal" to mean "anything insufficiently communist", and "reactionary" to mean "anyone I disagree with".

They don't seem to have any idea what they're talking about either because they said Gloria Steinem is a famous third wave feminist. She is clearly a second waver since she has been active since the 1960s.

Firstly, you have no idea what any of those words mean. Secondly, I never said Steinem was a third wave feminist. I said she was a feminist and a liberal who helped create this modern nonsense.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

User avatar
West Leas Oros 2
Diplomat
 
Posts: 917
Founded: Jul 15, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:59 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:On the topic of feminist laws being exploitative and subjugating men, we're about to witness the ultimate incarnation of that and how they have produced erratic and unjustifiable results as a result of gynocentric focus.

The richest person on the planet is about to change. The current richest person is going to go through a divorce in a state where his wife is guaranteed at least half, and alimony. In addition to that she is likely to receive child custody, and consequently, child support. This will mean she receives over half of his income henceforth.

She has never worked for Amazon. She in fact has written two novels. "Traps", and "The testing of Luther albright."

One of them sells for twelve pence currently.

Suffice to say, she has done nothing to earn this money beyond marry a man in a feminist society and subsequently divorce him. The process of the feminist takeover of society is usually fairly insidious and progresses over generations, but occasionally you see jumps like this one.

When the richest person on the planet is merely a beneficiary of sexist laws and dynamics that benefit one sex at the expense of the other, will that finally be enough for you guys to admit this movement was nonsense?

Just how much gender privilege do you need exactly?

At least men who were at the top of society for sexist reasons did things to generate wealth or govern, rather than simply be a particular sex.

And why should I be mad about Bezo's money being taken? His "generated wealth" was taken from the labor of his workers. She shouldn't get it, but that doesn't mean he should.
West Leas Oros 2, Election Boogaloo (Please ignore the 2 in our name in all IC interactions)
WLO Public News is currently unavailable due to recent Unrest
Does Montgomery really look that ugly?
⚧Copy and paste this into your sig if you did not pay attention in biology and don't care about the difference between gender and sex⚧
Seriously considering giving up on humanity
An accurate description of NationStates: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IQFU1y928dw

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Minister
 
Posts: 2822
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:14 am

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:On the topic of feminist laws being exploitative and subjugating men, we're about to witness the ultimate incarnation of that and how they have produced erratic and unjustifiable results as a result of gynocentric focus.

The richest person on the planet is about to change. The current richest person is going to go through a divorce in a state where his wife is guaranteed at least half, and alimony. In addition to that she is likely to receive child custody, and consequently, child support. This will mean she receives over half of his income henceforth.

She has never worked for Amazon. She in fact has written two novels. "Traps", and "The testing of Luther albright."

One of them sells for twelve pence currently.

Suffice to say, she has done nothing to earn this money beyond marry a man in a feminist society and subsequently divorce him. The process of the feminist takeover of society is usually fairly insidious and progresses over generations, but occasionally you see jumps like this one.

When the richest person on the planet is merely a beneficiary of sexist laws and dynamics that benefit one sex at the expense of the other, will that finally be enough for you guys to admit this movement was nonsense?

Just how much gender privilege do you need exactly?

At least men who were at the top of society for sexist reasons did things to generate wealth or govern, rather than simply be a particular sex.

And why should I be mad about Bezo's money being taken? His "generated wealth" was taken from the labor of his workers. She shouldn't get it, but that doesn't mean he should.

It wasn't taken by the labour of his workers. His workers helped him to get where he is today, and in exchange they got paid a wage, not his whole fortune.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Minarchism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Socialism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 4.0
Social: -8.0
If you support liberal democratic capitalism, paste this into your sig: $LFD
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off. Policies are way off though.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male who tries to think intelligently about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20040
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:19 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:And why should I be mad about Bezo's money being taken? His "generated wealth" was taken from the labor of his workers. She shouldn't get it, but that doesn't mean he should.

It wasn't taken by the labour of his workers. His workers helped him to get where he is today, and in exchange they got paid a wage, not his whole fortune.


Nobody should hold wealth in the hundreds of billions from the backs of a few thousand workers. That's outright insanity and injustice.

EDIT: it's also pretty irrelevant to the FDT, so I'll leave this at that.
Last edited by Torrocca on Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns nowadays! :3

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Minister
 
Posts: 2822
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:25 am

Torrocca wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:It wasn't taken by the labour of his workers. His workers helped him to get where he is today, and in exchange they got paid a wage, not his whole fortune.


Nobody should hold wealth in the hundreds of billions from the backs of a few thousand workers. That's outright insanity and injustice.

I'm afraid it's theirs to hold and do what they want with. The workers never claimed ownership of it.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Minarchism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Socialism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 4.0
Social: -8.0
If you support liberal democratic capitalism, paste this into your sig: $LFD
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off. Policies are way off though.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male who tries to think intelligently about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20040
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:27 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Nobody should hold wealth in the hundreds of billions from the backs of a few thousand workers. That's outright insanity and injustice.

I'm afraid it's theirs to hold and do what they want with. The workers never claimed ownership of it.


BRB, transferring this to the LWDT where it's much more relevant.
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns nowadays! :3

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Minister
 
Posts: 2822
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:31 am

Torrocca wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:I'm afraid it's theirs to hold and do what they want with. The workers never claimed ownership of it.


BRB, transferring this to the LWDT where it's much more relevant.

Worried about being a reverse Ostro? Talking about leftism in the feminism thread while he talks about feminism in the leftist thread?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Minarchism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Socialism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 4.0
Social: -8.0
If you support liberal democratic capitalism, paste this into your sig: $LFD
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off. Policies are way off though.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male who tries to think intelligently about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:59 am

Orostan wrote:Secondly, I never said Steinem was a third wave feminist

Orostan wrote:Here is an article about Gloria Steinem, one of the popular people of third wave feminism
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Knockturn Alley
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 486
Founded: Oct 28, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Knockturn Alley » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:11 am

Autarkheia wrote:
Orostan wrote:Secondly, I never said Steinem was a third wave feminist

Orostan wrote:Here is an article about Gloria Steinem, one of the popular people of third wave feminism


Oof
Lelouch Lamperouge wrote:The only one who has the right to kill is he who is willing to die himself

Unknown wrote:There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come

Political Compass [OUTDATED]:
Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.74
capitalism, free speech, atheism, nature, gun rights, metal music, technology, anime, stoicism, mgtow
traditionalism, racism, religion, virtue-signalling, celebrities, SJWs, PC Culture

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48268
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:50 pm

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:On the topic of feminist laws being exploitative and subjugating men, we're about to witness the ultimate incarnation of that and how they have produced erratic and unjustifiable results as a result of gynocentric focus.

The richest person on the planet is about to change. The current richest person is going to go through a divorce in a state where his wife is guaranteed at least half, and alimony. In addition to that she is likely to receive child custody, and consequently, child support. This will mean she receives over half of his income henceforth.

She has never worked for Amazon. She in fact has written two novels. "Traps", and "The testing of Luther albright."

One of them sells for twelve pence currently.

Suffice to say, she has done nothing to earn this money beyond marry a man in a feminist society and subsequently divorce him. The process of the feminist takeover of society is usually fairly insidious and progresses over generations, but occasionally you see jumps like this one.

When the richest person on the planet is merely a beneficiary of sexist laws and dynamics that benefit one sex at the expense of the other, will that finally be enough for you guys to admit this movement was nonsense?

Just how much gender privilege do you need exactly?

At least men who were at the top of society for sexist reasons did things to generate wealth or govern, rather than simply be a particular sex.

And why should I be mad about Bezo's money being taken? His "generated wealth" was taken from the labor of his workers. She shouldn't get it, but that doesn't mean he should.


It's less about being mad and more about recognizing the hierarchy as it actually exists. Reminder that women own more of the wealth in the west than men do, and soon the richest person will be a woman too.

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:And why should I be mad about Bezo's money being taken? His "generated wealth" was taken from the labor of his workers. She shouldn't get it, but that doesn't mean he should.

It wasn't taken by the labour of his workers. His workers helped him to get where he is today, and in exchange they got paid a wage, not his whole fortune.


Amazon dodges taxes and uses its power to push corporatism. It's one of the worst companies to work at and treats its workers very poorly, including hiring illegals on the basis they can't complain and then exploits them.

Even for a capitalist company, it's an awful one.
It's a pyramid of exploitation, with a woman at the top of it now.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

User avatar
Orostan
Minister
 
Posts: 3301
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:24 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Orostan wrote:Secondly, I never said Steinem was a third wave feminist

Orostan wrote:Here is an article about Gloria Steinem, one of the popular people of third wave feminism

Alright, my mistake. Does not change the fact that she's been promoting the same or similar things.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

User avatar
Hirota
Senator
 
Posts: 4995
Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:29 pm

Orostan wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:

Alright, my mistake. Does not change the fact that she's been promoting the same or similar things.
The problem with your evidence is you are claiming evidence of actions in the sixties and seventies, during the Cold War, demonstrate that the CIA created third wave feminism in the 1990s, whilst the Soviet Union was in collapse, and COINTELPRO had ceased in 1971 according to your wiki source. It doesn’t follow.

I think you might have meant second wave - an honest mistake. But it’s hard to argue for or against something that currently reads as nonsensical. If you can clarify what you mean we can have another go at this.

The Cointelpro stuff and Steinem/CIA stuff was pretty... Entertaining stuff btw. Think I spent a good 40 minutes going down that rabbit hole.
Last edited by Hirota on Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Known to trigger Grammar Nazis, Spelling Nazis, Actual Nazis, the emotionally stunted, and koi carp.
Those affected by the views, opinions or general demeanour of this poster should review this puppy picture. Those affected by puppy pictures should consider investing in an isolation tank.
Economic Left/Right: -3.25, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03
Isn't it curious how people will claim they are against tribalism, then pigeonhole themselves into tribes?

User avatar
Orostan
Minister
 
Posts: 3301
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:59 pm

Hirota wrote:
Orostan wrote:Alright, my mistake. Does not change the fact that she's been promoting the same or similar things.
The problem with your evidence is you are claiming evidence of actions in the sixties and seventies, during the Cold War, demonstrate that the CIA created third wave feminism in the 1990s, whilst the Soviet Union was in collapse, and COINTELPRO had ceased in 1971 according to your wiki source. It doesn’t follow.

I think you might have meant second wave - an honest mistake. But it’s hard to argue for or against something that currently reads as nonsensical. If you can clarify what you mean we can have another go at this.

The Cointelpro stuff and Steinem/CIA stuff was pretty... Entertaining stuff btw. Think I spent a good 40 minutes going down that rabbit hole.

The CIA didn't end COINTELPRO, they just said they did. I have absolutely no doubt that it is still going on, and that they have a lot of information that isn't public yet. My argument is basically that the CIA backs liberalism to undermine the left, I used Steinem as an example of this. I also referenced some events during the OWS protests.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

User avatar
Proctopeo
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7583
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:26 pm

Orostan wrote:
Hirota wrote:The problem with your evidence is you are claiming evidence of actions in the sixties and seventies, during the Cold War, demonstrate that the CIA created third wave feminism in the 1990s, whilst the Soviet Union was in collapse, and COINTELPRO had ceased in 1971 according to your wiki source. It doesn’t follow.

I think you might have meant second wave - an honest mistake. But it’s hard to argue for or against something that currently reads as nonsensical. If you can clarify what you mean we can have another go at this.

The Cointelpro stuff and Steinem/CIA stuff was pretty... Entertaining stuff btw. Think I spent a good 40 minutes going down that rabbit hole.

The CIA didn't end COINTELPRO, they just said they did. I have absolutely no doubt that it is still going on, and that they have a lot of information that isn't public yet. My argument is basically that the CIA backs liberalism to undermine the left, I used Steinem as an example of this. I also referenced some events during the OWS protests.

So, in summary, you're a conspiracy theorist.
Center-right libertarian LockeabooEconomic: 4.13
Meme addict :^)Social: -3.44
Manga is literatureWill probably retake once every month or so, last updated 10/9/2018
RIP Balk
Crockerland wrote:Yes, we are aware, the Israelis protect their civilians with weapons while the Palestinians protect their weapons with civilians.

User avatar
Des-Bal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27092
Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:39 pm

Orostan wrote:The CIA didn't end COINTELPRO, they just said they did. I have absolutely no doubt that it is still going on, and that they have a lot of information that isn't public yet. My argument is basically that the CIA backs liberalism to undermine the left, I used Steinem as an example of this. I also referenced some events during the OWS protests.


You've got this almost totally wrong. The CIA didn't run COINTELPRO the FBI did. COINTELPRO also didn't involve "backing" liberalism it involved infiltrating organizations and screwing them by airing their dirty laundry or sometimes just shooting them. The CIA does most (and allegedly all) of it's shit outside of the USA. Steinem wasn't a plant to ruin feminism she was being used as a propaganda tool to spread american values in areas we feared communism spreading
Proctopeo wrote:So, in summary, you're a conspiracy theorist.

He does appear to be but it's not "Donald Rumsfeld is a lizard" level shit. COINTELPRO was a thing so the conspiracy he's selling is basically that it hasn't stopped and that it's somehow different now.
Last edited by Des-Bal on Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome to the internet, our men are men, our women are men, our children are FBI agents.

Founding Member The Sovereign League

Red Eclipse Executive Slave Traders: Anonymity Guarantee

User avatar
Proctopeo
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7583
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:40 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Orostan wrote:The CIA didn't end COINTELPRO, they just said they did. I have absolutely no doubt that it is still going on, and that they have a lot of information that isn't public yet. My argument is basically that the CIA backs liberalism to undermine the left, I used Steinem as an example of this. I also referenced some events during the OWS protests.


You've got this almost totally wrong. The CIA didn't run COINTELPRO the FBI did. COINTELPRO also didn't involve "backing" liberalism it involved infiltrating organizations and screwing them by airing their dirty laundry or sometimes just shooting them. The CIA does most (and allegedly all) of it's shit outside of the USA. Steinem wasn't a plant to ruin feminism she was being used as a propaganda tool to spread american values in areas we feared communism spreading
Proctopeo wrote:So, in summary, you're a conspiracy theorist.

He does appear to be but it's not "Donald Rumsfeld is a lizard" level shit. COINTELPRO was a thing so the conspiracy he's selling is basically that it hasn't stopped and that it's somehow different now.

Tbf there isn't much difference between "Donald Rumsfeld is a lizard!" and "COINTELPRO is still happening!". It's tinfoil hats either way.
Center-right libertarian LockeabooEconomic: 4.13
Meme addict :^)Social: -3.44
Manga is literatureWill probably retake once every month or so, last updated 10/9/2018
RIP Balk
Crockerland wrote:Yes, we are aware, the Israelis protect their civilians with weapons while the Palestinians protect their weapons with civilians.

User avatar
Des-Bal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27092
Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 pm

Proctopeo wrote:Tbf there isn't much difference between "Donald Rumsfeld is a lizard!" and "COINTELPRO is still happening!". It's tinfoil hats either way.


Actually there's quite a bit of difference since one involves a whole bunch of other shit being crazy and the other just involves the FBI, which explicitly does investigate domestic groups being unscrupulous.
Welcome to the internet, our men are men, our women are men, our children are FBI agents.

Founding Member The Sovereign League

Red Eclipse Executive Slave Traders: Anonymity Guarantee

User avatar
Orostan
Minister
 
Posts: 3301
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:00 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Orostan wrote:The CIA didn't end COINTELPRO, they just said they did. I have absolutely no doubt that it is still going on, and that they have a lot of information that isn't public yet. My argument is basically that the CIA backs liberalism to undermine the left, I used Steinem as an example of this. I also referenced some events during the OWS protests.


You've got this almost totally wrong. The CIA didn't run COINTELPRO the FBI did. COINTELPRO also didn't involve "backing" liberalism it involved infiltrating organizations and screwing them by airing their dirty laundry or sometimes just shooting them. The CIA does most (and allegedly all) of it's shit outside of the USA. Steinem wasn't a plant to ruin feminism she was being used as a propaganda tool to spread american values in areas we feared communism spreading
Proctopeo wrote:So, in summary, you're a conspiracy theorist.

He does appear to be but it's not "Donald Rumsfeld is a lizard" level shit. COINTELPRO was a thing so the conspiracy he's selling is basically that it hasn't stopped and that it's somehow different now.

FBI and CIA both did that kind of thing. I say CIA a lot because they did a lot of this too. Besides that, COINTELPRO did involve backing liberalism. The first thing on the wikipedia list of methods is "Infiltration" and "negatively redirect action". I also provided an example of a liberal backed by the CIA. I can get many more examples if you like. I don't call myself or consider myself to be any kind of "conspiracy theorist" because this stuff doesn't require much theorizing at all and is a fairly open secret.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS

Proctopeo wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
You've got this almost totally wrong. The CIA didn't run COINTELPRO the FBI did. COINTELPRO also didn't involve "backing" liberalism it involved infiltrating organizations and screwing them by airing their dirty laundry or sometimes just shooting them. The CIA does most (and allegedly all) of it's shit outside of the USA. Steinem wasn't a plant to ruin feminism she was being used as a propaganda tool to spread american values in areas we feared communism spreading
He does appear to be but it's not "Donald Rumsfeld is a lizard" level shit. COINTELPRO was a thing so the conspiracy he's selling is basically that it hasn't stopped and that it's somehow different now.

Tbf there isn't much difference between "Donald Rumsfeld is a lizard!" and "COINTELPRO is still happening!". It's tinfoil hats either way.

Here are the facts as I understand them:

1) The FBI has recently carried out operations against left wing groups using COINTELPRO tactics
2) Assuming we know everything the FBI did or is doing is incorrect.
3) With the data we have we must assume that the FBI has some form of COINTELPRO still active.

https://www.democracynow.org/2012/12/27 ... ecret_docs

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... own-occupy
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:01 pm

Well COINTELPRO is well-established to have been a real thing whereas there is no evidence of lizard people outside of weird YouTube videos, so they aren't the same. I agree it does sound conspiratorial though.

Also I'm not sure Steinem is in fact a liberal but again, tankies would probably call Hitler a liberal.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Des-Bal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27092
Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:11 pm

Orostan wrote:FBI and CIA both did that kind of thing. I say CIA a lot because they did a lot of this too. Besides that, COINTELPRO did involve backing liberalism. The first thing on the wikipedia list of methods is "Infiltration" and "negatively redirect action". I also provided an example of a liberal backed by the CIA. I can get many more examples if you like. I don't call myself or consider myself to be any kind of "conspiracy theorist" because this stuff doesn't require much theorizing at all and is a fairly open secret.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS

[


The only instance I know where the FBI tried to control a group involved trying to keep the socialist workers party away from anti-war movement. I haven't seen anything about them propping up leaders to make the movement look dumb and a nebulous statement on wikipedia is not sufficiently persuasive evidence.

You're also missing the point about the CIA backing Steinem, they weren't sabotaging feminism they were using feminism to sabotage communism.

A theory wherein a group is perpetrating a conspiracy is a conspiracy theory.
Welcome to the internet, our men are men, our women are men, our children are FBI agents.

Founding Member The Sovereign League

Red Eclipse Executive Slave Traders: Anonymity Guarantee

User avatar
Orostan
Minister
 
Posts: 3301
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:29 pm

Autarkheia wrote:Well COINTELPRO is well-established to have been a real thing whereas there is no evidence of lizard people outside of weird YouTube videos, so they aren't the same. I agree it does sound conspiratorial though.

Also I'm not sure Steinem is in fact a liberal but again, tankies would probably call Hitler a liberal.

As a certified tankie, Hitler was not a liberal. He was a fascist. Words have meanings, and liberal does not equal literally hitler.

Des-Bal wrote:
Orostan wrote:FBI and CIA both did that kind of thing. I say CIA a lot because they did a lot of this too. Besides that, COINTELPRO did involve backing liberalism. The first thing on the wikipedia list of methods is "Infiltration" and "negatively redirect action". I also provided an example of a liberal backed by the CIA. I can get many more examples if you like. I don't call myself or consider myself to be any kind of "conspiracy theorist" because this stuff doesn't require much theorizing at all and is a fairly open secret.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS

[


The only instance I know where the FBI tried to control a group involved trying to keep the socialist workers party away from anti-war movement. I haven't seen anything about them propping up leaders to make the movement look dumb and a nebulous statement on wikipedia is not sufficiently persuasive evidence.

You're also missing the point about the CIA backing Steinem, they weren't sabotaging feminism they were using feminism to sabotage communism.

A theory wherein a group is perpetrating a conspiracy is a conspiracy theory.

Have you read anything else in my post? I gave links which outright stated that the FBI infiltrating OWS was public knowledge. This is also not a theory, it is fact.
Last edited by Orostan on Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

User avatar
Des-Bal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27092
Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:50 pm

Orostan wrote:Have you read anything else in my post? I gave links which outright stated that the FBI infiltrating OWS was public knowledge. This is also not a theory, it is fact.


The problem is where you think this means anything. The accusation isn't that the FBI investigates domestic groups it's that the FBI is "backing" people or setting up puppet infiltrators to take down movements. That is the shit you are selling and that is the shit you need to support.
Welcome to the internet, our men are men, our women are men, our children are FBI agents.

Founding Member The Sovereign League

Red Eclipse Executive Slave Traders: Anonymity Guarantee

User avatar
Orostan
Minister
 
Posts: 3301
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:25 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Orostan wrote:Have you read anything else in my post? I gave links which outright stated that the FBI infiltrating OWS was public knowledge. This is also not a theory, it is fact.


The problem is where you think this means anything. The accusation isn't that the FBI investigates domestic groups it's that the FBI is "backing" people or setting up puppet infiltrators to take down movements. That is the shit you are selling and that is the shit you need to support.

I just provided evidence that the FBI infiltrates movements with the intent to damage them. It's in their literal playbook.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Duvniask, Infected Mushroom, Mackjaracotavon, New Visayan Islands, Risottia, Samudera Darussalam, Sane Outcasts, The Huskar Social Union, The New California Republic, USHALLNOTPASS

Advertisement

Remove ads