The NationStates Feminist Thread III

[Des-Bal]

Number two was a bit off. It's not very common, anyways.

Less than 50% of men have sexual relationships with other men, true or false?

[Marado]

Number two was a bit off. It's not very common, anyways.

Less than 50% of men have sexual relationships with other men, true or false?

True. Homosexuals are a minority.

[Forsher]

Can I just say, Carrier and Morgan use the generally male on male nature of interpersonal violence in people as a starting point for an argument that human faces are shaped by violence? In fact, unless I totally misread them, they also say that the maleness of a face is predictive of skill in violence. So, you have one reason there to believe you shouldn't be afraid of men if you're female, and one reason there to believe that you should be wary of particularly male looking males.

Also, society today is in dire need of paying particular attention to City Mouse and Country Mouse or whatever it is called, insofar as the scattered impression of this violence subject I have from this thread in my sleep deprived state is yet another outcome of the moral I recall from said tale (hah), i.e. a need to move beyond one's own experience... I think there's a Herodotus quote to this effect too. That is, consider, not, Man and Woman, but instead some version of yourself, and therefore that you are the best model for what is going on. If you're caught not knowing something and try to laugh it away, are you expressing a belief that some other gender cannot educate you or do you seek to dismiss some ego-harming reality's significance. That may be a bad example. This may not make sense. But something like that.

In the majority of the western world murder is illegal, thus murder never occurs.

Mmm, I love the smell of reductio ad absurdum in the morning.

Do as I say, not as I do. Laws are the same as says. Also: what is wadge gap?

[Marado]

[quote="Forsher";p="31462009"

Do as I say, not as I do. Laws are the same as says. Also: what is wadge gap?[/quote]

Wage, not wadge. Simple spelling error.

[Jello Biafra]

Kind of stuck in the middle of the article was the quote "“Not every woman has been harmed by a man she trusted, but every woman KNOWS someone who has,”
Is it typical that when men are the victims of violence from men, they trust these men?

1. It's entirely possible that in the history of the world some man involved with drugs has not been robbed or beaten by someone they considered a friend but I can't attest to ever hearing of it.
2. What are we calling trust? If we're talking about the context of sexual relationships then no, because most men don't have sexual relationships with other men and you're picking at a point that doesn't amount to much.

A family member or close friend would presumably be someone a person trusts.

[Galloism]

Why are women so afraid of male anger? asks the article.

The subtitle ends with it's become woven into our DNA. The argument, naturally, has nothing to do with some sort of biologically inherited factor predisposing women to be frightened when men are angry, but claims it is personally and/or culturally obtained by the experience of angry men becoming violent towards women ...

... completely ignoring the fact that angry men become violent towards men significantly more often.

If ... and that's a big if that the article doesn't even consider ... women are more often afraid of angry men than other men are ... then it doesn't have to do with greater experience, either on a personal level or some kind of class-collective level, of male violence.

It either really is related to hard-wired factors (which is not crazy - rats are more scared of male humans than female humans, the subtitle could easily be the most accurate part of the article) or is related to other social-cultural factors, like the fact that the article's author is a feminist and therefore her associates and related Twitter communications network disproportionately subscribe to an ideology that pushes negative stereotyping of men.

Kind of stuck in the middle of the article was the quote "“Not every woman has been harmed by a man she trusted, but every woman KNOWS someone who has,”
Is it typical that when men are the victims of violence from men, they trust these men?

Uh...

Probably, yeah. Also men they don't trust, but given men are an order of magnitude more likely to experience being a victim of violence in general, that's not unexpected.

[Des-Bal]

A family member or close friend would presumably be someone a person trusts.

I'd say yes. Even when you allow for the fact that there's a big class of relationships that most men just don't have with other men I'd wager that just about every man knows someone whose been hurt by a man they trusted but who knows how much of that is just because men are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims of violence.

[Jello Biafra]

Uh...

Probably, yeah. Also men they don't trust, but given men are an order of magnitude more likely to experience being a victim of violence in general, that's not unexpected.

A family member or close friend would presumably be someone a person trusts.

I'd say yes. Even when you allow for the fact that there's a big class of relationships that most men just don't have with other men I'd wager that just about every man knows someone whose been hurt by a man they trusted but who knows how much of that is just because men are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims of violence.

Would either of you say that you personally know a man who's been physically hurt by a man he trusted?

[Des-Bal]

Would either of you personally say that you know a man who's been physically hurt by a man he trusted?

Several. Does being beaten by your father count because we're already in double digits if it does. If it doesn't then when one of my friends or family members gets punched it's a relative or close friend. I've had an honestly disheartening number of friends get shot and unless I'm forgetting one they've all been by someone they considered a close friend.

Edit: As a general rule man or woman you're more likely to be hurt by someone you know. That percentage goes up for women but the number of men hurt is so much higher that I can't imagine it changes anything.

[Marado]

Uh...

Probably, yeah. Also men they don't trust, but given men are an order of magnitude more likely to experience being a victim of violence in general, that's not unexpected.

I'd say yes. Even when you allow for the fact that there's a big class of relationships that most men just don't have with other men I'd wager that just about every man knows someone whose been hurt by a man they trusted but who knows how much of that is just because men are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims of violence.

Would either of you say that you personally know a man who's been physically hurt by a man he trusted?

No, to be exact. I'd be too scared to even mention.

[Galloism]

Uh...

Probably, yeah. Also men they don't trust, but given men are an order of magnitude more likely to experience being a victim of violence in general, that's not unexpected.

I'd say yes. Even when you allow for the fact that there's a big class of relationships that most men just don't have with other men I'd wager that just about every man knows someone whose been hurt by a man they trusted but who knows how much of that is just because men are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims of violence.

Would either of you say that you personally know a man who's been physically hurt by a man he trusted?

Yes. Several.

[Marado]

Isn't feminism supposed to stand for the EQUAL RIGHTS AND OPPORTUNITIES of both MEN AND WOMEN in society, rather than empowering one gender and forgetting the other, regardless of the advantages and disadvantages that such equality would have for either gender?

That's the fundamental aspect of it, for sure.

[Galloism]

Isn't feminism supposed to stand for the EQUAL RIGHTS AND OPPORTUNITIES of both MEN AND WOMEN in society, rather than empowering one gender and forgetting the other, regardless of the advantages and disadvantages that such equality would have for either gender?

That's the fundamental aspect of it, for sure.

Except, in practice, it isn't.

[Marado]

That's the fundamental aspect of it, for sure.

Except, in practice, it isn't.

True. It's theoretical at best.

[Luminesa]

Uh...

Probably, yeah. Also men they don't trust, but given men are an order of magnitude more likely to experience being a victim of violence in general, that's not unexpected.

I'd say yes. Even when you allow for the fact that there's a big class of relationships that most men just don't have with other men I'd wager that just about every man knows someone whose been hurt by a man they trusted but who knows how much of that is just because men are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims of violence.

Would either of you say that you personally know a man who's been physically hurt by a man he trusted?

This happens all the time. Do you doubt that men can be hurt by other men the same way women can be hurt by men?

[Marado]

Would either of you say that you personally know a man who's been physically hurt by a man he trusted?

This happens all the time. Do you doubt that men can be hurt by other men the same way women can be hurt by men?

I don't doubt.

[Galloism]

Would either of you say that you personally know a man who's been physically hurt by a man he trusted?

This happens all the time. Do you doubt that men can be hurt by other men the same way women can be hurt by men?

It's well known that men have a combination of adamantium and unobtanium exoskeletons.

[New Edom]

Why are women so afraid of male anger? asks the article.

The subtitle ends with it's become woven into our DNA. The argument, naturally, has nothing to do with some sort of biologically inherited factor predisposing women to be frightened when men are angry, but claims it is personally and/or culturally obtained by the experience of angry men becoming violent towards women ...

... completely ignoring the fact that angry men become violent towards men significantly more often.

If ... and that's a big if that the article doesn't even consider ... women are more often afraid of angry men than other men are ... then it doesn't have to do with greater experience, either on a personal level or some kind of class-collective level, of male violence.

It either really is related to hard-wired factors (which is not crazy - rats are more scared of male humans than female humans, the subtitle could easily be the most accurate part of the article) or is related to other social-cultural factors, like the fact that the article's author is a feminist and therefore her associates and related Twitter communications network disproportionately subscribe to an ideology that pushes negative stereotyping of men.

Kind of stuck in the middle of the article was the quote "“Not every woman has been harmed by a man she trusted, but every woman KNOWS someone who has,”
Is it typical that when men are the victims of violence from men, they trust these men?

You didn't see my resposne to TJ? What I pointed out is that as women have entered public life, they had to deal with the fact that men deal with issues differently from women, but it's like they can't get a clue, and like the men who are protective towards women cannot either.

All the things women worry about--being demeaned, being victimized, etc, men worry about too. The difference is that men are always taught that they need to be resourceful about it, and that they need to build laws that make things fair. That's about it. So for example a small man being bullied by a bigger man? The little guy is supposed to overcome that. This is why we have heroes like Luke Skywalker, Marty McFly, Peter Parker and of course the stories of David vs. Goliath and the Greek hero Theseus. Even if a guy isn't as tough as his neighbors, he should find some way--quickness, cleverness, etc--to overcome it.

By contrast, any woman, however athletic, who is attacked or threatened by a man is a victim according to feminism. This is really evoking women's privilege of being protected by her society. In the West that principle (contrary to feminist lies) is held sacred. So the fear she talks about is nonsense--men generally feel EXACTLY the same fears but have been educated from a young age to deal with it. However this woman, like many other feminists, wants to be treated chivalrously AND have total equality.

I reject her view entirely. Women in the West either need to grow the hell up or go back in the kitchen.

[New Edom]

Men get catcalled

I found this kind of amusing. The Guardian and Jezebel did stuff like this too. Clueless. What they don't get is that women rarely do the initiating of such encounters, and so the average guy is going to be confused, wondering if its a prostitute or a joke.

[Jello Biafra]

Would either of you say that you personally know a man who's been physically hurt by a man he trusted?

This happens all the time. Do you doubt that men can be hurt by other men the same way women can be hurt by men?

The male/male violence I'm most familiar with is gang violence or violence similar to that - peer/peer. Of course men can be hurt by other men, but what I've seen it mostly wasn't men that they trusted.

[Jello Biafra]

You didn't see my resposne to TJ? What I pointed out is that as women have entered public life, they had to deal with the fact that men deal with issues differently from women, but it's like they can't get a clue, and like the men who are protective towards women cannot either.

All the things women worry about--being demeaned, being victimized, etc, men worry about too. The difference is that men are always taught that they need to be resourceful about it, and that they need to build laws that make things fair. That's about it. So for example a small man being bullied by a bigger man? The little guy is supposed to overcome that. This is why we have heroes like Luke Skywalker, Marty McFly, Peter Parker and of course the stories of David vs. Goliath and the Greek hero Theseus. Even if a guy isn't as tough as his neighbors, he should find some way--quickness, cleverness, etc--to overcome it.

By contrast, any woman, however athletic, who is attacked or threatened by a man is a victim according to feminism. This is really evoking women's privilege of being protected by her society. In the West that principle (contrary to feminist lies) is held sacred. So the fear she talks about is nonsense--men generally feel EXACTLY the same fears but have been educated from a young age to deal with it. However this woman, like many other feminists, wants to be treated chivalrously AND have total equality.

I reject her view entirely. Women in the West either need to grow the hell up or go back in the kitchen.

So it isn't reasonable to say that people should stop demeaning, victimizing, etc. other people altogether?

[New Edom]

You didn't see my resposne to TJ? What I pointed out is that as women have entered public life, they had to deal with the fact that men deal with issues differently from women, but it's like they can't get a clue, and like the men who are protective towards women cannot either.

All the things women worry about--being demeaned, being victimized, etc, men worry about too. The difference is that men are always taught that they need to be resourceful about it, and that they need to build laws that make things fair. That's about it. So for example a small man being bullied by a bigger man? The little guy is supposed to overcome that. This is why we have heroes like Luke Skywalker, Marty McFly, Peter Parker and of course the stories of David vs. Goliath and the Greek hero Theseus. Even if a guy isn't as tough as his neighbors, he should find some way--quickness, cleverness, etc--to overcome it.

By contrast, any woman, however athletic, who is attacked or threatened by a man is a victim according to feminism. This is really evoking women's privilege of being protected by her society. In the West that principle (contrary to feminist lies) is held sacred. So the fear she talks about is nonsense--men generally feel EXACTLY the same fears but have been educated from a young age to deal with it. However this woman, like many other feminists, wants to be treated chivalrously AND have total equality.

I reject her view entirely. Women in the West either need to grow the hell up or go back in the kitchen.

So it isn't reasonable to say that people should stop demeaning, victimizing, etc. other people altogether?

Without irony, with all hope for a better future, I ardentlyl wish that. But that's not what this program presents. it presents the old chestnut of 'men are violent, men need to be better'. As someone who was abused and neglected as a child by women, and then further as a teenager by a woman, I suffered from this view. People assumed she was right when she accused me of being dangerous, violent and delinquent. Can you understand why I am so hostile to this program?

In spite of what I suffered, I don't want women to suffer in turn. I just want people to understand--this is not a MALE problem, it's an abusive person problem. it's a rapist person problem. I would not mind if there were classes for men and women that were separate because men and women may be uncomfortable discussing personal details with the other sex present, I get that. But I want this 'men perps , women victims' thing gone.

[Galloism]

This happens all the time. Do you doubt that men can be hurt by other men the same way women can be hurt by men?

The male/male violence I'm most familiar with is gang violence or violence similar to that - peer/peer. Of course men can be hurt by other men, but what I've seen it mostly wasn't men that they trusted.

Men probably suffer about the same amount of violence from trusted people as women do, but men also suffer a lot of other violence that women typically don't.

Being a man means living in the knowledge that's statistically likely for you to be a victim of violence, and that when you are, people will expect you to buck up and take it like a man.

You hear men reminisce - yes, reminisce! - about violence visited upon them from time to time. "Remember that time you were drunk and threw me off the roof and broke my collar bone? That was a crazy day man." Because society says being violently assaulted is ok if you're a guy.

[Reatra]

So what's the thread's thoughts on socialism and the like?

[Germanic Templars]

So what's the thread's thoughts on socialism and the like?

Socialism and Feminism? Like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_feminism ?