The NationStates Feminist Thread III

[The Blaatschapen]

I don't like feminism

Alright.

What's your reasoning for it?

[Ostroeuropa]

Its the feds! they're on to us! Quick, hide the memes. Someone get out some feminist discourse pronto before we get busted. How about this:

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So who are some feminist figures you guys admire? My partner bought a biography of Countess Markievicz and I've been flicking through it when I get the chance. She's a figure everyone in Ireland learns about as a child but its interesting to learn about her again as an adult.
She was the fist woman to be elected to a parliamentary seat in Europe (possibly the world im not too sure), and the second woman ever to hold a cabinet position. She was a suffragette, a revolutionary, an aristocrat, a socialist, a painter, an actress, and all round badass.
A popular quote of hers is "Dress suitably in short skirts and strong boots, leave your jewels in the bank and buy a revolver" but my favourite, since learning about her in primary school was "I do wish your lot had the decency to shoot me" (on being told she wouldn't be executed along with other rebels on account of her gender).
I'm not sure I'd call her my favourite feminist - there's a lot of feminist figures I adore and many I want to read more about, but she is a figure I admire.

What about you guys? Have you heard of Markievicz? Do you have a favourite feminist?

*shrug* I'll cover a few angles I guess. For some of these i'm going with what YOU mean by feminist, not me.

My big sister. I remember she was cool with me playing with her toys and bought me some. I'm not sure when I stopped playing with girls toys. Probably school at some point, but I kind of think It was more that I was playing with them because they were hers and I thought she was awesome, rather than it being a girl thing. We've only argued once in all the time I can remember, and it was because I stole all her easter eggs and ate them in such a way as to get chocolate on her clothes, accidentally. (Because I was hiding in her cupboard with the stolen eggs and eating them.)
To be fair, I was a doofus, and also young at the time. But yeh, she went apeshit. (She was about 17.) Other than that, nope. Just been nice to me, supportive, accepting, never held truck with gender roles and encouraged me to do whatever. Even these days my sister gets tactically deployed by my mom to make me feel better sometimes, I can't stay mad or sad if she's in the room because she knows all my buttons to calm me down.

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Karen DeCrow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_DeCrow

Lots of MRAs liked her. She had a funeral thread, thus far the only feminist to do so on the MRM board so far as I can remember.

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Warren Farrell, ofcourse, along the same lines.

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Realizing how many there are, giving up.

[Torsiedelle]

Shitposter and lurker in the house.

I don't like feminism

You and me both, Brother. Any particular reasons, may I ask? I'm personally interested.

Those two are comedians?

I found this funnier than anything either of them would say. Thank you.

[Germanic Templars]

I don't like feminism

Alright.

What's your reasoning for it?

Not really speaking for the person, but maybe it has to do with the rad-fems that have been shown now and then that have been burnt as the image for the feminist movement. You know, the ones that think men are inferior, or some crap like that.

Any who...

Those two are comedians?

I found this funnier than anything either of them would say. Thank you.

No problem, I do what comes naturally to me.

[The Grene Knyght]

Shitposter and lurker in the house.

I don't like feminism

You and me both, Brother. Any particular reasons, may I ask? I'm personally interested.

Pretty sure this is just a typical drive-by posting.
This thread attracts a lot of 'em.

[Checkuslavakia]

I don't like feminism

Alright.

What's your reasoning for it?

Women already have prights. They are not being beat. They can have what job they want. A really big perk they have is they don't have to sign up for the draft. What else do they need?

[Checkuslavakia]

Shitposter and lurker in the house.

I don't like feminism

You and me both, Brother. Any particular reasons, may I ask? I'm personally interested.

Those two are comedians?

I found this funnier than anything either of them would say. Thank you.

Women already have prights. They are not being beat. They can have what job they want. A really big perk they have is they don't have to sign up for the draft. What else do they need?

[Torsiedelle]

Bit of a repeat there m80. No worries from me, though.

Ugh, the draft...well, actually, I didn't mind it...still, think it's sort of dumb that women were exampt, but at the same time old-fashioned me felt it was also for the best. I can understand different sides to the argument, and it's not an issue I feel particularly strong about.

[Checkuslavakia]

Bit of a repeat there m80. No worries from me, though.

Ugh, the draft...well, actually, I didn't mind it...still, think it's sort of dumb that women were exampt, but at the same time old-fashioned me felt it was also for the best. I can understand different sides to the argument, and it's not an issue I feel particularly strong about.

Also I'm thinking women's place is not on in the military. Say I'm shot and wounded weighing 170 pounds, then add 60 pounds of gear. Most women wouldn't be capable of getting me of that battle field. Also the way a woman's body is made makes it harder for them to complete a task that a male can undertake.

[Jello Biafra]

Women already have prights. They are not being beat. They can have what job they want. A really big perk they have is they don't have to sign up for the draft. What else do they need?

Equality?

[Torsiedelle]

Bit of a repeat there m80. No worries from me, though.

Ugh, the draft...well, actually, I didn't mind it...still, think it's sort of dumb that women were exampt, but at the same time old-fashioned me felt it was also for the best. I can understand different sides to the argument, and it's not an issue I feel particularly strong about.

Also I'm thinking women's place is not on in the military. Say I'm shot and wounded weighing 170 pounds, then add 60 pounds of gear. Most women wouldn't be capable of getting me of that battle field. Also the way a woman's body is made makes it harder for them to complete a task that a male can undertake.

TBF Women in Combat is a new thing, even for the military. Before it was given the go last year, Females were restricted to non-combat MOS's.

My Platoon Drill Sgt in Basic was one of the scariest ones there. She was cool, though

[Galloism]

Women already have prights. They are not being beat. They can have what job they want. A really big perk they have is they don't have to sign up for the draft. What else do they need?

Equality?

I mean, I agree women should get equality.

I think a lot of women (and feminists) would disagree with that, because it would involve women having a lot of their sexist privileges removed, and would see them treated equally under law.

[Checkuslavakia]

Also I'm thinking women's place is not on in the military. Say I'm shot and wounded weighing 170 pounds, then add 60 pounds of gear. Most women wouldn't be capable of getting me of that battle field. Also the way a woman's body is made makes it harder for them to complete a task that a male can undertake.

TBF Women in Combat is a new thing, even for the military. Before it was given the go last year, Females were restricted to non-combat MOS's.

My Platoon Drill Sgt in Basic was one of the scariest ones there. She was cool, though

You still in service?

[Torsiedelle]

TBF Women in Combat is a new thing, even for the military. Before it was given the go last year, Females were restricted to non-combat MOS's.

My Platoon Drill Sgt in Basic was one of the scariest ones there. She was cool, though

You still in service?

Nah, not any more.

[Checkuslavakia]

You still in service?

Nah, not any more.

Ah, graduated from the Air Force Academy last year.

[The Grene Knyght]

Bit of a repeat there m80. No worries from me, though.

Ugh, the draft...well, actually, I didn't mind it...still, think it's sort of dumb that women were exampt, but at the same time old-fashioned me felt it was also for the best. I can understand different sides to the argument, and it's not an issue I feel particularly strong about.

Also I'm thinking women's place is not on in the military. Say I'm shot and wounded weighing 170 pounds, then add 60 pounds of gear. Most women wouldn't be capable of getting me of that battle field. Also the way a woman's body is made makes it harder for them to complete a task that a male can undertake.

Why block the women who can perform military tasks though? I mean so long as the physical requirements are the same for both genders, whats the problem?
I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't think women should be added from the draft, I just think men should be removed from it.

[Jello Biafra]

Equality?

I mean, I agree women should get equality.

I think a lot of women (and feminists) would disagree with that, because it would involve women having a lot of their sexist privileges removed, and would see them treated equally under law.

There are certain things that I've heard from certain feminists that remind me of things Phyllis Schlaffly might have said in the 1970s.

[Galloism]

I mean, I agree women should get equality.

I think a lot of women (and feminists) would disagree with that, because it would involve women having a lot of their sexist privileges removed, and would see them treated equally under law.

There are certain things that I've heard from certain feminists that remind me of things Phyllis Schlaffly might have said in the 1970s.

That must feel strange from your perspective.

[Jello Biafra]

There are certain things that I've heard from certain feminists that remind me of things Phyllis Schlaffly might have said in the 1970s.

That must feel strange from your perspective.

Indeed. It's tempting to pull a "No true feminist sounds like Phyllis Schlaffly" but there are the obvious problems with that.

[New Edom]

Its the feds! they're on to us! Quick, hide the memes. Someone get out some feminist discourse pronto before we get busted. How about this:

---

So who are some feminist figures you guys admire? My partner bought a biography of Countess Markievicz and I've been flicking through it when I get the chance. She's a figure everyone in Ireland learns about as a child but its interesting to learn about her again as an adult.
She was the fist woman to be elected to a parliamentary seat in Europe (possibly the world im not too sure), and the second woman ever to hold a cabinet position. She was a suffragette, a revolutionary, an aristocrat, a socialist, a painter, an actress, and all round badass.
A popular quote of hers is "Dress suitably in short skirts and strong boots, leave your jewels in the bank and buy a revolver" but my favourite, since learning about her in primary school was "I do wish your lot had the decency to shoot me" (on being told she wouldn't be executed along with other rebels on account of her gender).
I'm not sure I'd call her my favourite feminist - there's a lot of feminist figures I adore and many I want to read more about, but she is a figure I admire.

What about you guys? Have you heard of Markievicz? Do you have a favourite feminist?

Christina Hoff Sommers is one; Wendy McElroy is another.

Emily Murphy is a third.

[Germanic Templars]

Bit of a repeat there m80. No worries from me, though.

Ugh, the draft...well, actually, I didn't mind it...still, think it's sort of dumb that women were exampt, but at the same time old-fashioned me felt it was also for the best. I can understand different sides to the argument, and it's not an issue I feel particularly strong about.

Actually funny thing is that if they can do combat arms and rangers n' shit, then they should have to sign up for the draft, regardless, after all that is equality right there.

[Germanic Templars]

Nah, not any more.

Ah, graduated from the Air Force Academy last year.

Ha! Chair Force!

(is Army)
(Has no regrets)

[Mattopilos II]

Bit of a repeat there m80. No worries from me, though.

Ugh, the draft...well, actually, I didn't mind it...still, think it's sort of dumb that women were exampt, but at the same time old-fashioned me felt it was also for the best. I can understand different sides to the argument, and it's not an issue I feel particularly strong about.

Actually funny thing is that if they can do combat arms and rangers n' shit, then they should have to sign up for the draft, regardless, after all that is equality right there.

You have to take into account that those who wanted equality tended to oppose the draft as a whole. This pretty much means the "but women didn't serve in the draft!" part is pretty moot: they didn't want the draft at all, men or women. That and it comes down to the conservative values of countries at the time, which thought of women as weaker and unable to serve anyways.

[Noraika]

Actually funny thing is that if they can do combat arms and rangers n' shit, then they should have to sign up for the draft, regardless, after all that is equality right there.

You have to take into account that those who wanted equality tended to oppose the draft as a whole. This pretty much means the "but women didn't serve in the draft!" part is pretty moot: they didn't want the draft at all, men or women. That and it comes down to the conservative values of countries at the time, which thought of women as weaker and unable to serve anyways.

Yeah, because a lot of the discrepancies that you can point to in society, in which men have additional circumstances (the draft in this case) were born out of the societal sexism towards women, which deliberately limited military service to men. It comes from men in the past self-imposing such things on men, by deliberate exclusion of women. Quite ironic if I do say myself.

And yeah...typically speaking you won't find many looking to expand the draft system. Rather more people, especially those on the more liberal and progressive spectrum of social issues, are concerned with abolishing the draft altogether.

[Tahar Joblis]

The sample consists entirely of persons who completed a first bachelor's degree in the 2007-2008 academic year, interviewed in 2009.

I'm aware. That was an example...

What I'm talking about isn't interactions. It's the fact that there are subdivisions within the category that are not distributed evenly by sex - as is illustrated pretty nicely in the "PK-12" category by the fact that many more women without degrees in education are found working in education, and the fact that the gap isn't statistically significant among the education majors going into the occupational area.

Since the "pre-K" part of that bin usually doesn't require an education degree, pays less, and is overwhelmingly female, that likely accounts for a large share of the difference within that bin - after which, the remaining difference probably struggles to be statistically significant.

That's a relatively uniform bin as occupational bins go. Most other bins are more diverse, and a very significant fraction of the "unexplained" gender gap is sitting in two exceptionally diverse bins - "other white-collar jobs" and then just plain "other."

Not seeing how your point isn't "Maybe the behaviour of wage differs if we're looking at people who have no degree and are in education?" Which, you know, is exactly what an interaction is... when the effect(s) of an explanatory value differs depending on the levels of other explanatory values.

It's not "no degree" + "working in education." These people have degrees in the study. All of them. The lack I'm referring to is not having an education degree.

The fact that we might make the gap disappear by controlling for the interaction between "not majoring in education" + "working in PK-12" is an indicator that something is fishy about the gender gap inside of that bin, but I'm not sure you would make the gap disappear just by controlling for degree status.

In particular, there are some people with degrees not in education who, immediately after finishing school, are teaching at the primary or secondary level in the same schools as people with education degrees - especially with math and science degrees - who are, in turn, generally earning the same salaries to their peers with education bachelor's in the same districts. I would not be surprised if this population is mostly male.

"Pre-K education," as a job, generally doesn't require a bachelor's degree. Everybody in the sample has one. Some of those working in "pre-K" might even have education degrees - but probably still earn less than K-12 teachers, because they're working a different job that pays less.

If you ran the numbers on the whole bin, you'd probably observe an interaction effect - but that interaction effect would likely vanish once you separated out the line K-12 teaching jobs in public schools from substitute teaching, private schools, and the "pre-K" jobs, and the gender gap tied to that interaction would likely vanish as soon as you separated the "pre-K" bin out. (The "education major" gap itself might persist inside of the private school teaching bin - private schools might pay education majors more, since they have more options within the teaching job market.)

The gender gap could even reverse inside the bins (Simpson's paradox) - I think that's only likely inside the "pre-K" bin, though.

This is fundamentally a different issue because what we want to do isn't captured by some existing variable interacted with another variable. Which is to say, your dominant example before did not help because, by the above, it clearly reduces to an interaction problem, thus clouding what you meant.

But it's theoretically resolvable. Using the data... construct a variable "female ratio" which is defined as "number of women in survey in [bin]"/"number of people in survey in [bin]"... which would capture the impact of being in a female dominated position... but there are practical issues (e.g. multicollinearity with female in the first place*). And with the broad bins it could be crowded out (i.e. miss the doctor thing you're talking about here). Moral: bigger survey to have more of the sub-population variability (assuming the survey is well constructed... this seems fundamentally the same reason why surveys often over sample Maori or, I assume, Native Americans).

*At this point, you're pushing against the bounds of what I remember so I'd have to look things up but I really don't want to have to do that... I feel like if I wait any longer, I put this in as a draft initially, I'll never get around to responding.

You can't adjust for a categorical difference that you don't record.

Similarly, with height, if we imagined height in terms of a factor of 20cm intervals or even just recorded it in centimetres/inches we can interact that with gender to see if there's a multidimensional change. And it may be an issue that it is too associated with gender and creates multicollinearity issues, but I think we could work around that by using mean deviated height (broken out by gender).

It is problematic, especially when everyone under the sun is thinking that there are other variables out there, to look at relationships in two dimensions when these may or may not hold in higher dimensions.

Because men and women tend to be of significantly different heights, there tends to be something done to control for gender when studying height.

In the case of the study I linked to above, it's scaled in terms of population standard deviations from mean (within-gender).

OTOH, perhaps some portion of the gender gap is simply due to women being shorter... but it's pretty much impossible to distinguish that from gender discrimination.

As far as I remember, there are approaches to choosing which variable to keep if we have some which are causing multicollinearity issues. I shouldn't have to look this up to confirm, but I do need to. However, I have been sick this week so I am behind with my actual need to dos and I've already kept you waiting for a while...

But, yeah, I agree, if height turned out to be a confounder or something, it's pretty much no different. Apart-height may have made for a funny episode of the Goodies but it's only funny so long as one is able to say "well, the point is that it's ridiculous". Which is to say, it's just for those of us who are interested to know... it's knowledge that changes nothing as such. Which is what I understand your point to be (but, clearly, I haven't quite been grasping your points previously, hence this odd construction).[/quote]
It does get pretty ridiculous, but at the same time... it's an interesting question that's very hard to answer convincingly. And if height discrimination causes some measure of gender discrimination, maybe we can do something about height discrimination that would affect gender discrimination.

And we probably should be doing something about height discrimination.