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The NationStates Feminist Thread III

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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:22 am

Tahar Joblis wrote:
Giovenith wrote:
I haven't taken one because I knew what bullshit would await me, but I've talked with many people who have, both who hated and loved it. It's about what you would expect. "THE PATRIARCHY IS OUT TO GET YOU. THE PATRIARCHY IS OUT TO GET YOU. IF YOU DON'T THINK THE PATRIARCHY IS OUT TO GET YOU, THEN THE PATRIARCHY HAS GOT YOU!" They teach one singular brand of feminism as not only the gospel feminism but the gospel of reality. I've met passionate gender studies students who didn't realize that "the patriarchy" is actually a relatively recent concept and not the foundation of feminism itself.

They basically hype up students' anger by telling them all the rotten things that used to be done to women and then teach them to practice confirmation bias. "Watch this movie. See the way the camera angle goes by? That's the patriarchy at work." - Not even joking, an old classmate told me how all they did was watch movies and have the teacher fuel them up on outrage by insisting all these minute, arbitrary details like camera angles, camera pans, the color of their shirts, their make up, are all the patriarchy at work. They connect the outrage students feel over the past and train them to not only project that outrage onto the present, but to do so over all the smallest and most neutral details in life.

The fact that there are other approaches to feminism isn't even acknowledged. It's just, "THIS is feminism. This has ALWAYS been feminism. You NEED feminism, because husbands hundreds of years ago men used to be allowed to hit their wives. Remember, THIS is feminism." So if someone says something contrary to what they learned, they are not feminist, and if they are not feminist, then they're part of the side that hits women, whether they know it or not. It works a lot like conspiracy theories, where people are so fervently dedicated to it because they're made to feel special about how they're smart enough to see the truth that society has hidden, all the "brainwashing" in all the music, the movies, the TV shows, the government bills, that they're in on a dirty little secret of the world and will be the ones to use that secret to take down the Illuminati the Patriarchy.



Well of course they're all going to lead into each other a bit, that's how progression works. I also don't think one can consciously create a new wave. Waves describe the era and the main debates associated with them, and as the name implies, they come and go like any societal trend. You can't just jump from one wave into another, there needs to be a significant "cooling off period" in between them, and the wave needs to be taken on by another generation. You don't create your own wave in response to feminists you don't like, you create your own sect - but you're all part of the third wave. A wave is all the feminists of that time period, not a certain brand of feminist philosophy, though waves are often associated with philosophies that were popular among that era.

tl;dr: Wave is a description of time, not ideas.

In terms of time, we're still clearly in the second wave. The term "third wave" originates in the early 1990s - but most of the structure and personnel of the feminist movement of the 1990s were inherited from the 1980s. Similarly, most of the structure and personnel of the feminist movement of the 1980s were inherited from the 1970s, and a fair share of that had roots going back into the 1960s.

There hasn't been a major interruption of the feminist movement since the early stirrings of the second wave in the 1960s, and the movement as a whole has been clearly and loudly active the entire time. Not the way that things calmed down on the feminism front after 1920.

As I have noted several times, the first wave in the United States has a pretty clear timeline that spans a bit over seven decades - you start with the Seneca Falls Convention in 1848 as the beginning of a coherent movement, and the last major achievement being the ratification of the 19th Amendment, with the movement ebbing through the 1920s.

There's very little in feminism currently that you can't see the roots of reaching back to the early days of the second wave. The major figures speaking for the feminist movement today include second wave luminaries. The major works consulted in Women's Studies courses include plenty of works authored by feminists active before the term "third wave" entered the scene. The purported third wave is both temporally and ideologically indistinguishable from a continuation of the second wave.

You could very easily complete an entire degree in Women's Studies without ever learning anything significant about the first wave of feminism, however.


The 3rd and 4th Waves are basically a form of damage control as far as I can see.

3rd Wave feminism is 2nd Wave with modern culture added to it, people like Laci Green and Anita Sarkeesian using modern technology to reach their audience. They rehash old dead arguments as though they just thought of them. In a way it's similar to how evangelical Christians discovered being 'hip' in the 90s and began to produce movies, television, self help books and stuff like that. None of the messages are new, but you see people with hipster glasses and work shirts saying them so it must be topical, right? The 3rd Wave also presents itself as being completely revelatory as though somehow the world became intensely more sexist since the 1970s. It's a desperate drive for relevancy. So yes, there is a 3rd Wave, but it's really just marketing and damage control for a movement that is increasingly irrelevant. Also these are the apprentices of the old 2nd Wavers grown up. Why else are there these huge circle jerks like the Women's March, Emma Watson and Gloria Steinem giving one another empathygasms over the F word?

The 4th Wave to me is another kind of damage control, this one still trying for relevancy but realizing how obnoxiously indifferent to the client base feminist leaders and teachers really are. I just think that it's too late, they should jump ship and get with the reality program.

And you are right about another thing: few people I meet know anything about the First Wave or proto-feminism. There are, after all, some weird things that they believed. Like for instance the Famous Five here in Canada all believed in the Yellow Peril and eugenics.
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

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Lady Scylla
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Postby Lady Scylla » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:18 am

New Edom wrote:
Tahar Joblis wrote:In terms of time, we're still clearly in the second wave. The term "third wave" originates in the early 1990s - but most of the structure and personnel of the feminist movement of the 1990s were inherited from the 1980s. Similarly, most of the structure and personnel of the feminist movement of the 1980s were inherited from the 1970s, and a fair share of that had roots going back into the 1960s.

There hasn't been a major interruption of the feminist movement since the early stirrings of the second wave in the 1960s, and the movement as a whole has been clearly and loudly active the entire time. Not the way that things calmed down on the feminism front after 1920.

As I have noted several times, the first wave in the United States has a pretty clear timeline that spans a bit over seven decades - you start with the Seneca Falls Convention in 1848 as the beginning of a coherent movement, and the last major achievement being the ratification of the 19th Amendment, with the movement ebbing through the 1920s.

There's very little in feminism currently that you can't see the roots of reaching back to the early days of the second wave. The major figures speaking for the feminist movement today include second wave luminaries. The major works consulted in Women's Studies courses include plenty of works authored by feminists active before the term "third wave" entered the scene. The purported third wave is both temporally and ideologically indistinguishable from a continuation of the second wave.

You could very easily complete an entire degree in Women's Studies without ever learning anything significant about the first wave of feminism, however.


The 3rd and 4th Waves are basically a form of damage control as far as I can see.

3rd Wave feminism is 2nd Wave with modern culture added to it, people like Laci Green and Anita Sarkeesian using modern technology to reach their audience. They rehash old dead arguments as though they just thought of them. In a way it's similar to how evangelical Christians discovered being 'hip' in the 90s and began to produce movies, television, self help books and stuff like that. None of the messages are new, but you see people with hipster glasses and work shirts saying them so it must be topical, right? The 3rd Wave also presents itself as being completely revelatory as though somehow the world became intensely more sexist since the 1970s. It's a desperate drive for relevancy. So yes, there is a 3rd Wave, but it's really just marketing and damage control for a movement that is increasingly irrelevant. Also these are the apprentices of the old 2nd Wavers grown up. Why else are there these huge circle jerks like the Women's March, Emma Watson and Gloria Steinem giving one another empathygasms over the F word?

The 4th Wave to me is another kind of damage control, this one still trying for relevancy but realizing how obnoxiously indifferent to the client base feminist leaders and teachers really are. I just think that it's too late, they should jump ship and get with the reality program.

And you are right about another thing: few people I meet know anything about the First Wave or proto-feminism. There are, after all, some weird things that they believed. Like for instance the Famous Five here in Canada all believed in the Yellow Peril and eugenics.


'Fourth Wave' has barely gotten off the ground, as of yet. Here's to helping it reverses much of the Third, and expels the RadFems.

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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:49 am

Lady Scylla wrote:
New Edom wrote:
The 3rd and 4th Waves are basically a form of damage control as far as I can see.

3rd Wave feminism is 2nd Wave with modern culture added to it, people like Laci Green and Anita Sarkeesian using modern technology to reach their audience. They rehash old dead arguments as though they just thought of them. In a way it's similar to how evangelical Christians discovered being 'hip' in the 90s and began to produce movies, television, self help books and stuff like that. None of the messages are new, but you see people with hipster glasses and work shirts saying them so it must be topical, right? The 3rd Wave also presents itself as being completely revelatory as though somehow the world became intensely more sexist since the 1970s. It's a desperate drive for relevancy. So yes, there is a 3rd Wave, but it's really just marketing and damage control for a movement that is increasingly irrelevant. Also these are the apprentices of the old 2nd Wavers grown up. Why else are there these huge circle jerks like the Women's March, Emma Watson and Gloria Steinem giving one another empathygasms over the F word?

The 4th Wave to me is another kind of damage control, this one still trying for relevancy but realizing how obnoxiously indifferent to the client base feminist leaders and teachers really are. I just think that it's too late, they should jump ship and get with the reality program.

And you are right about another thing: few people I meet know anything about the First Wave or proto-feminism. There are, after all, some weird things that they believed. Like for instance the Famous Five here in Canada all believed in the Yellow Peril and eugenics.


'Fourth Wave' has barely gotten off the ground, as of yet. Here's to helping it reverses much of the Third, and expels the RadFems.


How will it do that? I mean in popular feminist circles anything outside of the party line is deemed a lie, and furthermore the mainstream rejects the notion that they HAVE a party line--which is a lie. So how can the 4th Wave have any effect against an establishment supported by popular media where it is a kind of blasphemy to say anything else and where information is not examined?
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

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Lady Scylla
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Postby Lady Scylla » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:59 am

New Edom wrote:
Lady Scylla wrote:
'Fourth Wave' has barely gotten off the ground, as of yet. Here's to helping it reverses much of the Third, and expels the RadFems.


How will it do that? I mean in popular feminist circles anything outside of the party line is deemed a lie, and furthermore the mainstream rejects the notion that they HAVE a party line--which is a lie. So how can the 4th Wave have any effect against an establishment supported by popular media where it is a kind of blasphemy to say anything else and where information is not examined?


Well, rolling over and dying isn't an option, and jumping ship isn't either. I have no issue criticising and attacking RadFem bullshit at every turn, just need to energise others to do so as well. People need to look at the reality of it. The Third Wave has victimised women and taken away our voice, and if it means turning the entire Feminist movement on its head, burning everything down, and causing another massive spat like the Sex Wars, then so be it.

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Fulford Island
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Postby Fulford Island » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:24 am

Facts:
>The gender wage gap DOES NOT exist
>There are only TWO genders
>Only cockroach lives matter
>There is no rape culture in the west
Slurs - Either all of it is okay, or none of it is okay. You still have the right to be offended by them, but that doesn't give you the right to necessarily stop someone from saying them. You are CHOOSING to be offended by those words!


Just a few things that need to be understood. If you disagree with me, I'd love to hear it, but only if it's in a civil manner or a constructive argument.

Fabulously yours,
A bisexual white female :)

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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:47 am

Fulford Island wrote:Facts:
>The gender wage gap DOES NOT exist
>There are only TWO genders
>Only cockroach lives matter
>There is no rape culture in the west
Slurs - Either all of it is okay, or none of it is okay. You still have the right to be offended by them, but that doesn't give you the right to necessarily stop someone from saying them. You are CHOOSING to be offended by those words!


Just a few things that need to be understood. If you disagree with me, I'd love to hear it, but only if it's in a civil manner or a constructive argument.

Fabulously yours,
A bisexual white female :)


>Water is wet
>Bears shit in the forest
>Elton John isn't straight

We've already discussed these things and these conclusions to death.


Actually, there is one thing I disagree with. I don't like this saying that's going around, "you choose to be offended." No, you don't. If someone calls your child a "retarded piece of shit" to your face, you don't have a debate with yourself inside like, "Hm, should I be offended or no...?"

Offense is an emotion. It happens whether you want it to or not. What you choose is how to react to that offense. I've had plenty of times where I was offended but intellectually sorted it through and realized I didn't have a good reason to, so I stayed calm and didn't make a fuss of it - however I was still offended, it just happened. If I hadn't been offended, I wouldn't have even needed to go through that decision-making process in the first place.

I know it seems like a minor thing to get hung up on, but it really makes a world of difference in communication. Emotions are instantaneous and involuntary, so when you confront an upset person by telling them that they're choosing to feel something when we all know that's not how it works, they automatically see you not only as unreasonable but condescending. Initial emotional reactions are not something we can control, actions, however, are. It's perfectly reasonable to expect someone to reel in their emotions in order to act more civil, it's a basic adult skill. Demand they do the basic adult skill, not the impossible, and you'll get much farther with communication.
Last edited by Giovenith on Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Philjia
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Postby Philjia » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:52 am

Giovenith wrote:
Fulford Island wrote:Facts:
>The gender wage gap DOES NOT exist
>There are only TWO genders
>Only cockroach lives matter
>There is no rape culture in the west
Slurs - Either all of it is okay, or none of it is okay. You still have the right to be offended by them, but that doesn't give you the right to necessarily stop someone from saying them. You are CHOOSING to be offended by those words!


Just a few things that need to be understood. If you disagree with me, I'd love to hear it, but only if it's in a civil manner or a constructive argument.

Fabulously yours,
A bisexual white female :)


>Water is wet
>Bears shit in the forest
>Elton John isn't straight

We've already discussed these things and these conclusions to death.


Except the second one, because we all know that one's bollocks.

Who was it who suggested the tally of people who come here and think they're going to smash the SJW conspiracy with their alternative facts?

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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:00 am

Philjia wrote:
Giovenith wrote:
>Water is wet
>Bears shit in the forest
>Elton John isn't straight

We've already discussed these things and these conclusions to death.


Except the second one, because we all know that one's bollocks.

Who was it who suggested the tally of people who come here and think they're going to smash the SJW conspiracy with their alternative facts?


Me. I lost count.
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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:05 am

Lady Scylla wrote:
New Edom wrote:
How will it do that? I mean in popular feminist circles anything outside of the party line is deemed a lie, and furthermore the mainstream rejects the notion that they HAVE a party line--which is a lie. So how can the 4th Wave have any effect against an establishment supported by popular media where it is a kind of blasphemy to say anything else and where information is not examined?


Well, rolling over and dying isn't an option, and jumping ship isn't either. I have no issue criticising and attacking RadFem bullshit at every turn, just need to energise others to do so as well. People need to look at the reality of it. The Third Wave has victimised women and taken away our voice, and if it means turning the entire Feminist movement on its head, burning everything down, and causing another massive spat like the Sex Wars, then so be it.


Fair enough. Just out of curiousity then what do you see the role of feminism to be in the West versus say in developing nations?
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

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Tahar Joblis
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Postby Tahar Joblis » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:13 am

Mattopilos II wrote:
Tahar Joblis wrote:There's very little in feminism currently that you can't see the roots of reaching back to the early days of the second wave. The major figures speaking for the feminist movement today include second wave luminaries. The major works consulted in Women's Studies courses include plenty of works authored by feminists active before the term "third wave" entered the scene. The purported third wave is both temporally and ideologically indistinguishable from a continuation of the second wave.

You could very easily complete an entire degree in Women's Studies without ever learning anything significant about the first wave of feminism, however.


It is a shame, really. I guess that is one way of viewing it. I suggest that a new wave has emerged, but is tainted, stuck to the previous wave, finding it hard to actually define itself as something new and having much of it being interpreted by the second wave. You seem to take it to its logical conclusion and say it is a new wave only in name, and is purely second wave feminism with maybe some different ideas, but not enough in relation to time to call itself a wave. I wouldn't take it that far, but I do see the rationalization behind it. What we have I see as being the end of the second wave and the beginning of the second, but conflict forming from the second wave not dying, no hiatus before the new wave came, resulting in a mess of ideas and idols.

And the last part is surprising yet not surprising. In one sense, it i surprising that they don't look into the ideas of feminists from the first wave, who were quite revolutionary in their thinking at the time. Some ideas of theirs would be considered a step back nowadays, but all the more reason to understand the thoughts and feelings of feminists at the time to critique theirs and this wave. They need to at leat understand how the first wave gained coherence if they hope to separate themselves from the second wave.

One of the major problems, for women's studies programs, with studying the first wave of feminism and their achievements is that if you do it, it undermines a lot of the rhetoric found in the second wave.

Second wave feminists generally want to be able to blame "patriarchy" for everything that people can point out as sexist - like default maternal custody of children in divorce.

If you study the first wave, however, you learn very rapidly that the traditional patriarchal thought in the West was (just as frequently seen in predominantly Muslim countries today) that children really belong to the father, along with all joint property, including a shared residence. The fact that child custody - and typically the ownership of a shared residence, in support of child custody - are, by social default, now assigned to women in divorce in the West is not "patriarchy" at work. It's institutionalized feminism.

A major second wave issue was trying to open up all of the men's colleges to women; but the existence of a largely gender-segregated higher education system was due to the first wave's efforts, not "patriarchy."

The second wave has a lot of complaints about "pink collar" professions - the term being popularized to refer to teachers, nurses, and secretaries in the same group, which are all jobs that require an education. The first wave fought to gain access to that type of job - and that period of history saw secretarial work and teaching go from almost exclusively male to largely female, and saw the job of "nurse" change from being a menial job with no education requirements to a professional job requiring an education (in particular, a two-year degree, which at the time was less common than a four-year degree is today).

"Patriarchy" didn't relegate women to these jobs; first wave feminists opened up the educational system and the job market, and women took over an array of professional jobs that, for one reason or another, were attractive to women.

If you study the actual state of affairs in the first wave, you learn that the most visible opposition to women's suffrage in the United States mostly consisted of women, who were afraid of losing the special privileges of being female in exchange for voting - in particular, arguments for male suffrage were often closely linked to the fact that any man could be called up for military service. Many anti-suffragettes felt that getting their hands dirty with politicking was beneath the dignity of women and would undermine the responsibility male political leaders had to listen to the counsel of women in their lives.

Another case where special privileges for women fueled opposition to advancement of equality was the equal rights amendment - it was defeated in Congress in the 1920s and continually afterwards until 1971-1972 not so much by opposition to women being granted rights, but by the fact that the ERA would undermine special protections for women in law. That factor remained critical in preventing the ratification in enough states after 1972, which second wave feminists prefer not to acknowledge; but studying the first wave outcomes makes it undeniable.

Another inconvenient issue is that the first wave did not feel about abortion the same way that the second wave does. Support of Roe v. Wade is one of the major litmus tests for feminist identity in the second wave, however, and it would undermine the arguments used to support its use as a litmus test if you acknowledged that feminists of the first wave did not share that litmus test. (There is a lot of room to engage in nuanced debate about how the first wave feminists felt about abortion policy and how they would react to the modern situation, but having a stance in favor of a right to abortion undeniably was not a litmus test used to determine feminist identity during the first wave.)

Studying the history of the first wave in detail tends to undermine the narratives of the second wave, and "third wave" if you want to try to call the latter half of it by that name.

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Lady Scylla
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Postby Lady Scylla » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:33 pm

New Edom wrote:
Lady Scylla wrote:
Well, rolling over and dying isn't an option, and jumping ship isn't either. I have no issue criticising and attacking RadFem bullshit at every turn, just need to energise others to do so as well. People need to look at the reality of it. The Third Wave has victimised women and taken away our voice, and if it means turning the entire Feminist movement on its head, burning everything down, and causing another massive spat like the Sex Wars, then so be it.


Fair enough. Just out of curiousity then what do you see the role of feminism to be in the West versus say in developing nations?


Obviously it needs to be pragmatic with different initiatives. You can't apply the same goals in the West as you do in developing nations, it's entirely dependent on the situation. Women are undoubtedly oppressed in Saudi Arabia, we work on fixing that issue before we go anywhere else. Whereas in the West, our focus and goals have changed. We're not oppressed here. Essentially, we're on step 6 whereas developing countries are on step 2. You treat them as such.

As far as the West: Sexism still exists, but as I've said before, it's time to stop treating men as if they're our enemies -- like they ever were to begin with. Sexism is a two way street, and we need to bring the Feminist movement towards greater inclusiveness to help both sexes -- because the issues that remain affect both. Rape is another example. Suicides. Domestic violence. All of these do not discriminate by sex, yet we're making it a segregationist issue that shouldn't be. You cannot target these issues from one side, from one lens of a single sex -- all you're going to do is put the other at a disadvantage, and that's definitely not okay. And it doesn't matter who has a higher suicide rate -- the first suicide was already too many.

Furthermore, as I've argued before. We need to push the RadFems out. They are not welcome in the Feminist movement, and they never will be. If they are co-opting the movement, then we should crash it into the ground and rebuild. RadFems victimise women, they're abusive and controlling to those females who speak out against them. And it needs to end here. They've mislead those into the idea of 'empowering' women, and then turning around and seeking to control everything we do to further misandrist bullshit. It's time to wake up and see who the real enemy of the Feminist movement is -- and it's no longer the men.

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Mattopilos II
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Postby Mattopilos II » Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:55 pm

Tahar Joblis wrote:-snip-

To study it wouldn't undermine the values you might hold as a third wave feminist, unless you had some strange desire to NEED to fit every label of a stereotypical feminist and saw leaving the ideas of the first wave as bad. As such, this is why I drew the conclusion that one should study the first wave in order to understand "Where to now?" in the newer waves, and to understand how civil rights movements march on. Also, in that to march towards gender neutrality, you need to know the obstacles, even if it is our own biases and the traditional views we have of men and women.

Lady Scylla wrote:Obviously it needs to be pragmatic with different initiatives. You can't apply the same goals in the West as you do in developing nations, it's entirely dependent on the situation. Women are undoubtedly oppressed in Saudi Arabia, we work on fixing that issue before we go anywhere else. Whereas in the West, our focus and goals have changed. We're not oppressed here. Essentially, we're on step 6 whereas developing countries are on step 2. You treat them as such.


They aren't AS oppressed here would be a better way to word that. White women especially aren't in comparison to other intersectional groups. Relative privation must be avoided if we want to focus on feminism as an issue in all countries.

As far as the West: Sexism still exists, but as I've said before, it's time to stop treating men as if they're our enemies -- like they ever were to begin with. Sexism is a two way street, and we need to bring the Feminist movement towards greater inclusiveness to help both sexes -- because the issues that remain affect both.


Hence making the movement about gender neutrality, which I see it as (besides certain radfems seeing it not being this but "pushing men down to equality" which is NOT the way to go about it at all), but the perception of it being this has been hurt over the years for legitimate and illegitimate reasons.

Rape is another example. Suicides. Domestic violence. All of these do not discriminate by sex, yet we're making it a segregationist issue that shouldn't be. You cannot target these issues from one side, from one lens of a single sex -- all you're going to do is put the other at a disadvantage, and that's definitely not okay. And it doesn't matter who has a higher suicide rate -- the first suicide was already too many.


So much this.

Furthermore, as I've argued before. We need to push the RadFems out.


Yes and no. We have to be able to actually know WHO the "RadFems" are, and how to define them. If you mean that coddled mess that survives off second wave rhetoric like TERFs and SWERFs, then agreed.

They are not welcome in the Feminist movement, and they never will be. If they are co-opting the movement, then we should crash it into the ground and rebuild.


Agreed. We need to remove the tumor, not cover it up or play it out as being something else entirely.

RadFems victimise women, they're abusive and controlling to those females who speak out against them.


Which RadFems? This seems not to describe all RadFems, but maybe you have an idea of the RadFems you speak of.

And it needs to end here. They've mislead those into the idea of 'empowering' women, and then turning around and seeking to control everything we do to further misandrist bullshit. It's time to wake up and see who the real enemy of the Feminist movement is -- and it's no longer the men.


Well, unless you count the majority of the MRA and such... but yes, people who call themselves feminists and work against neutrality are the problem as well.
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Tahar Joblis
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Postby Tahar Joblis » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:14 pm

Mattopilos II wrote:
Tahar Joblis wrote:-snip-

To study it wouldn't undermine the values you might hold as a third wave feminist, unless you had some strange desire to NEED to fit every label of a stereotypical feminist and saw leaving the ideas of the first wave as bad. As such, this is why I drew the conclusion that one should study the first wave in order to understand "Where to now?" in the newer waves, and to understand how civil rights movements march on. Also, in that to march towards gender neutrality, you need to know the obstacles, even if it is our own biases and the traditional views we have of men and women.

Well, studying history will rarely undermine the values you hold, but it may give you a very different perspective on claims about origins and solutions of problems.

My fundamental values on what we might call the "feminist issue" haven't changed a bit in the fourteen years I've been posting here on NationStates. I sincerely believe that sexism is wrong, and that we should take action to insure that members of both sexes are treated fairly. On the other hand, my attitude towards the feminist movement has demonstrably gone through huge upheavals. Believe it or not, I used to be a card-carrying member of NSG's feminist majority.

While I knew more about the history of the movement (in particular the First Wave) than your average Women's Studies B.A. even back then, the additional history I have learned since then has been important in shaping the shift in my views towards the current iteration of the movement - which are, though not without nuance, much more critical.

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Mattopilos II
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Postby Mattopilos II » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:17 pm

Tahar Joblis wrote:
Mattopilos II wrote:To study it wouldn't undermine the values you might hold as a third wave feminist, unless you had some strange desire to NEED to fit every label of a stereotypical feminist and saw leaving the ideas of the first wave as bad. As such, this is why I drew the conclusion that one should study the first wave in order to understand "Where to now?" in the newer waves, and to understand how civil rights movements march on. Also, in that to march towards gender neutrality, you need to know the obstacles, even if it is our own biases and the traditional views we have of men and women.


Well, studying history will rarely undermine the values you hold, but it may give you a very different perspective on claims about origins and solutions of problems.


True enough.

My fundamental values on what we might call the "feminist issue" haven't changed a bit in the fourteen years I've been posting here on NationStates. I sincerely believe that sexism is wrong, and that we should take action to insure that members of both sexes are treated fairly.


Same.

On the other hand, my attitude towards the feminist movement has demonstrably gone through huge upheavals. Believe it or not, I used to be a card-carrying member of NSG's feminist majority.


You seem to have the air of being familiar with the circle of feminists here.

While I knew more about the history of the movement (in particular the First Wave) than your average Women's Studies B.A. even back then, the additional history I have learned since then has been important in shaping the shift in my views towards the current iteration of the movement - which are, though not without nuance, much more critical.


Same. I guess it is just the question of how we deal with the current issues in the movement and where one stands in relation to it as a whole vs. as sects.
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Philjia
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Postby Philjia » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:20 am

The softcore porn is coming back to Playboy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38963007

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Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:39 am

Lady Scylla wrote:'Fourth Wave' has barely gotten off the ground, as of yet. Here's to helping it reverses much of the Third, and expels the RadFems.


From what has been described of the fourth wave, they're basically going to be RadFems on steroids.
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Postby Hirota » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:25 am

You know, I think I'm just going to trademark fifth wave feminism all the way to... I dunno, hundredth wave feminism(?) just to prevent their rebranding exercises.
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:54 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
Lady Scylla wrote:'Fourth Wave' has barely gotten off the ground, as of yet. Here's to helping it reverses much of the Third, and expels the RadFems.


From what has been described of the fourth wave, they're basically going to be RadFems on steroids.


I think a lot of the Radfems might have been on steroids the first time around. It would explain a lot.
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Postby New Edom » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:20 am

Philjia wrote:The softcore porn is coming back to Playboy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38963007


What I read in this article are the following schizophrenic thoughts.

1. What's the market want? Please tell us what the market wants!

2. We want to please feminiss...somehow. (Hence "Free The Nipple", remove men's entertainment, and trying to remove it earlier)

It's kind of hilarious. Playboy has long been a rather liberal magazine, but they are behind the times. They are Bill Mahr liberals, not Michael Moore liberals, but the fine line is a hard one to walk apparently.

So Playboy, for the record:

1. Free the Nipple is a self contradictory joke. They don't even make sense to themselves. It's another outburst of vaguely leftist feel good feminism and possibly the absolute ultimate in first world white feminist problems.

2. There are double standards about sexuality. For both men and women.
(as we've talked about around here many times)

3. No one needs to please feminists anymore. All the desperate defensive talk aside, basically we can ignore the damage contorl and look at basic facts:
- general liberals controll academia and some government institutions and the entertainment industry, for the most part
- generally conservatives and libertarians control the majority of the indstries a civilization needs in order to continue to exist.
- Do the math.

Feminists like those who have begun to form the majority here have valuable stuff to contribute to figuring out where to go from here, and frankly we need to start pushing aside the idiots who don't want fair debates and discussion. What do the mainstream idiots think--that people are going to shackle them to stoves and take away The Pill from them?
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Mattopilos II
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Postby Mattopilos II » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:50 pm

Hirota wrote:You know, I think I'm just going to trademark fifth wave feminism all the way to... I dunno, hundredth wave feminism(?) just to prevent their rebranding exercises.


Then I make the first wave of egalitarianism and avoid the trademark kek
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Postby Rio Cana » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:32 pm

Seems this is the place to put this piece of news.

While surfing youtube, came across this new video of a fifth grade NJ. Catholic basketball coed team which ran into problems when it came to the playoffs. Seems the rules stipulate that coed teams are only allowed up to the fourth grade. So in order for this team to play in the playoffs, they had to dump the two girls they had on the team. Being that this involves kids I think they are being kind of draconian in there rules.

In the end, the whole team voted not to play in the playoffs. This team really seemed to be tight.

Video on that - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRif5lw-za0

Seems the same thing happened to another basketball team but in a US Southern State. In that incident, they team had to dump one girl in order to continue on to the playoff.
Video on that one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3F-IiG-rfw
Last edited by Rio Cana on Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Galloism » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:37 pm

Rio Cana wrote:Seems this is the place to put this piece of news.

While surfing youtube, came across this new video of a fifth grade NJ. Catholic basketball coed team which ran into problems when it came to the playoffs. Seems the rules stipulate that coed teams are only allowed up to the fourth grade. So in order for this team to play in the playoffs, they had to dump the two girls they had on the team. Being that this involves kids I think they are being kind of draconian in there rules.

In the end, the whole team voted not to play in the playoffs. This team really seemed to be tight.

Video on that - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRif5lw-za0

Seems the same thing happened to another basketball team but in a US Southern State. In that incident, they team had to dump one girl in order to continue on to the playoff.
Video on that one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3F-IiG-rfw

Good on them.

They're a team and they're acting like one.

(Taking your summary as gospel - not watching video tonight)
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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:41 pm

Rio Cana wrote:Seems this is the place to put this piece of news.

While surfing youtube, came across this new video of a fifth grade NJ. Catholic basketball coed team which ran into problems when it came to the playoffs. Seems the rules stipulate that coed teams are only allowed up to the fourth grade. So in order for this team to play in the playoffs, they had to dump the two girls they had on the team. Being that this involves kids I think they are being kind of draconian in there rules.

In the end, the whole team voted not to play in the playoffs. This team really seemed to be tight.

Video on that - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRif5lw-za0

Seems the same thing happened to another basketball team but in a US Southern State. In that incident, they team had to dump one girl in order to continue on to the playoff.
Video on that one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3F-IiG-rfw


Good team spirit.

When issues like this are brought up, I tend to think that they are less about women and girls in particular and more about how rules are dealt with. This case particularly could easily be flipped. It's clear that according to these examples it's less common for girls to be on these teams so maybe it hasn't come up much until recently.
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Hexgard
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Postby Hexgard » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:18 am

I do have to ask, the "wage gap" is about simply comparing the average wage of all women and all men? I have thought for a while it was about comparing the same jobs in the same places, but, if it is just about the average wages of all, then it is really a non-argument for anything.

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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:34 am

Hexgard wrote:I do have to ask, the "wage gap" is about simply comparing the average wage of all women and all men? I have thought for a while it was about comparing the same jobs in the same places, but, if it is just about the average wages of all, then it is really a non-argument for anything.


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