NationStates

Fahran wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:We need a law to fine feminist organizations and their managers who don't hire MRAs and allow them to use those institutions to advance mens issues as well as womens, cmv.

("Why don't women just start their own companies instead of demanding male-only ones open up to them?".).

The active exclusion of men participating in this field needs to be rectified, and the large institutions feminists have constructed are actively opposed to rivals from the MRM because they represent competitors for resources.

That'll create a lot of issues when extrapolated to other employment opportunities that rely on ideological distinctions.

I look forward to the first article written by the SPLC written by a Neo Nazi.

Fahran wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:We need a law to fine feminist organizations and their managers who don't hire MRAs and allow them to use those institutions to advance mens issues as well as womens, cmv.

("Why don't women just start their own companies instead of demanding male-only ones open up to them?".).

The active exclusion of men participating in this field needs to be rectified, and the large institutions feminists have constructed are actively opposed to rivals from the MRM because they represent competitors for resources.

That'll create a lot of issues when extrapolated to other employment opportunities that rely on ideological distinctions.

If you can demonstrate a demographic impact along the lines of a protected characteristic, I don't see the problem with it highlighting more issues to resolve.

An alternative would be to mandate that the MRM be present in policy meetings involving feminists, or in tv interviews and so on.

Ostroeuropa wrote:If you can demonstrate a demographic impact along the lines of a protected characteristic, I don't see the problem with it highlighting more issues to resolve.

I think even that requirement might well create issues when mandated.

Ostroeuropa wrote:An alternative would be to mandate that the MRM be present in policy meetings involving feminists, or in tv interviews and so on.

My preferred alternative would be handing out grants to incentivize research into men's issues and providing mechanisms that increase the representation of academics interested in male and non-female issues in gender studies departments - while citing the missions of those departments and an interest in learning. I don't think you can force changes in the way you've proposed without a lot of issues flaring up else where but you can set up foundations and pass legislation that acknowledge the shortcomings of current practices and seek to remedy them. Cultural and institutional change through softer means serves that purpose and doesn't result in white nationalists or other weirdos benefiting.

Fahran wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:If you can demonstrate a demographic impact along the lines of a protected characteristic, I don't see the problem with it highlighting more issues to resolve.

I think even that requirement might well create issues when mandated.

Ostroeuropa wrote:An alternative would be to mandate that the MRM be present in policy meetings involving feminists, or in tv interviews and so on.

My preferred alternative would be handing out grants to incentivize research into men's issues and providing mechanisms that increase the representation of academics interested in male and non-female issues in gender studies departments - while citing the missions of those departments and an interest in learning. I don't think you can force changes in the way you've proposed without a lot of issues flaring up else where but you can set up foundations and pass legislation that acknowledge the shortcomings of current practices and seek to remedy them. Cultural and institutional change through softer means serves that purpose and doesn't result in white nationalists or other weirdos benefiting.

One of the problems is gender studies is cancerous with pseudoscience and misandry, hence their unironic use of sexist stereotypes and straight up gendered slurs against men in what I will generously call “research”.

Along with exceptionally large reference to the fiction of patriarchy, a system where men as a group masterminded oppression of women to their own benefit like Superman villains.

Handing them grants to research men’s issues is going to just result in more sexist shit against men. It’s like giving grants to Breitbart to study issues faced by Arab-Americans.

Galloism wrote:

Fahran wrote:I think even that requirement might well create issues when mandated.


My preferred alternative would be handing out grants to incentivize research into men's issues and providing mechanisms that increase the representation of academics interested in male and non-female issues in gender studies departments - while citing the missions of those departments and an interest in learning. I don't think you can force changes in the way you've proposed without a lot of issues flaring up else where but you can set up foundations and pass legislation that acknowledge the shortcomings of current practices and seek to remedy them. Cultural and institutional change through softer means serves that purpose and doesn't result in white nationalists or other weirdos benefiting.

One of the problems is gender studies is cancerous with pseudoscience and misandry, hence their unironic use of sexist stereotypes and straight up gendered slurs against men in what I will generously call “research”.

Along with exceptionally large reference to the fiction of patriarchy, a system where men as a group masterminded oppression of women to their own benefit like Superman villains.

Handing them grants to research men’s issues is going to just result in more sexist shit against men. It’s like giving grants to Breitbart to study issues faced by Arab-Americans.

Pretty much.

Found a study on Dutch parenting
https://stuffdutchpeoplelike.com/2016/1 ... -happiest/

And tax system in The Netherlands
https://www.mercatornet.com/mobile/view ... me-mothers

So most Dutch families work both, most Male fulltime/ female part time. But growing numbers of males working 32 hours a week and a day parenting .

So as an experiment I've been looking at the world through a modern-day feminist lens, and I gotta say, it's fucking exhausting.

Finding problems in ever single little thing and moving all blame of the bad things in life from the individual to the patriarchy is so much more tiring than you think it'd be. Especially performing the mental gymnastics and rationalizations to get to that point.

I think that the feminist lense is valuable, women should not be mistreated or discriminated against by men. Where it falls apart is when it goes in a direction too radical: liberalization of abortion, divorce, sexuality. These things are profoundly harmful to society.

Sundiata wrote:I think that the feminist lense is valuable, women should not be mistreated or discriminated against by men. Where it falls apart is when it goes in a direction too radical: liberalization of abortion, divorce, sexuality. These things are profoundly harmful to society.

Weird how pretty much all the successful countries in the modern world disagree...

New haven america wrote:

Sundiata wrote:I think that the feminist lense is valuable, women should not be mistreated or discriminated against by men. Where it falls apart is when it goes in a direction too radical: liberalization of abortion, divorce, sexuality. These things are profoundly harmful to society.

Weird how pretty much all the successful countries in the modern world disagree...

Yeah this.

New haven america wrote:

Sundiata wrote:I think that the feminist lense is valuable, women should not be mistreated or discriminated against by men. Where it falls apart is when it goes in a direction too radical: liberalization of abortion, divorce, sexuality. These things are profoundly harmful to society.

Weird how pretty much all the successful countries in the modern world disagree...

That's untrue.

All across the world women are mistreated, nefariously used by men. There is no successful country with regards to the moral treatment of women, only some less bad than others.

Sundiata wrote:

New haven america wrote:Weird how pretty much all the successful countries in the modern world disagree...

That's untrue.

All across the world women are mistreated, nefariously used by men. There is no successful country with regards to the moral treatment of women, only some less bad than others.

That's going to be fun for you to prove.

Samadhi wrote:

Sundiata wrote: That's untrue.

All across the world women are mistreated, nefariously used by men. There is no successful country with regards to the moral treatment of women, only some less bad than others.

That's going to be fun for you to prove.

While some countries offer paid maternity leave as they should, they still fail to provide sufficient incentives for motherhood and fatherhood: readily available contraception, abortion, etc. I'm primarily referring to our Scandinavian friends.

The United States has yet to offer comprehensive paid-maternity leave at the national level. You can see the effects of these errors in declining American and Scandinavian birthrates.

Increased strains on mothers and a disregard for unborn lives fail women across the world.

Sundiata wrote:

Samadhi wrote:

That's going to be fun for you to prove.

While some countries offer paid maternity leave as they should, they still fail to provide sufficient incentives for motherhood and fatherhood: readily available contraception, abortion, etc. I'm primarily referring to our Scandinavian friends.

The United States has yet to offer comprehensive paid-maternity leave at the national level. You can see the effects of these errors in declining American and Scandinavian birthrates.

Increased strains on mothers and a disregard for unborn lives fail women across the world.

Yeah no.

None of that shows mistreatment nor is any lack of moral treatment in what you wrote.

Samadhi wrote:

Sundiata wrote:While some countries offer paid maternity leave as they should, they still fail to provide sufficient incentives for motherhood and fatherhood: readily available contraception, abortion, etc. I'm primarily referring to our Scandinavian friends.

The United States has yet to offer comprehensive paid-maternity leave at the national level. You can see the effects of these errors in declining American and Scandinavian birthrates.

Increased strains on mothers and a disregard for unborn lives fail women across the world.

Yeah no.

None of that shows mistreatment nor is any lack of moral treatment in what you wrote.

It's immoral to compel women towards abortion for economic reasons because it forces them to violate the right to life. At the other extreme there's Saudi Arabia where women are not allowed basic freedoms.

Women are oppressed all over the world in different ways.

Sundiata wrote:

Samadhi wrote:
Yeah no.

None of that shows mistreatment nor is any lack of moral treatment in what you wrote.

It's immoral to compel women towards abortion for economic reasons because it forces them to violate the right to life. At the other extreme there's Saudi Arabia where women are not allowed basic freedoms.

Women are oppressed all over the world in different ways.

It's immoral to force them into becoming baby factories. You've got a very... interesting take on women's lib.

Totenborg wrote:

Sundiata wrote:It's immoral to compel women towards abortion for economic reasons because it forces them to violate the right to life. At the other extreme there's Saudi Arabia where women are not allowed basic freedoms.

Women are oppressed all over the world in different ways.

It's immoral to force them into becoming baby factories. You've got a very... interesting take on women's lib.

My take on this is the Catholic take. We're all baby factories!

Men too.

Sundiata wrote:

Totenborg wrote:It's immoral to force them into becoming baby factories. You've got a very... interesting take on women's lib.

My take on this is the Catholic take. We're all baby factories!

Men too.

My take on this is that we have the intelligence and technology to not be. Take the apple and be free.

Sundiata wrote:

Samadhi wrote:

That's going to be fun for you to prove.

While some countries offer paid maternity leave as they should, they still fail to provide sufficient incentives for motherhood and fatherhood: readily available contraception, abortion, etc. I'm primarily referring to our Scandinavian friends.

The United States has yet to offer comprehensive paid-maternity leave at the national level. You can see the effects of these errors in declining American and Scandinavian birthrates.

Increased strains on mothers and a disregard for unborn lives fail women across the world.

Notably, there’s even lower incentives for fatherhood - so if women are mistreated by lacking national maternity leave, then men are mistreated for lack of paternity leave.

In fact, the former is offered more commonly and in more quantity than the latter.

Galloism wrote:

Sundiata wrote:While some countries offer paid maternity leave as they should, they still fail to provide sufficient incentives for motherhood and fatherhood: readily available contraception, abortion, etc. I'm primarily referring to our Scandinavian friends.

The United States has yet to offer comprehensive paid-maternity leave at the national level. You can see the effects of these errors in declining American and Scandinavian birthrates.

Increased strains on mothers and a disregard for unborn lives fail women across the world.

Notably, there’s even lower incentives for fatherhood - so if women are mistreated by lacking national maternity leave, then men are mistreated for lack of paternity leave.

In fact, the former is offered more commonly and in more quantity than the latter.

I don't disagree in the slightest with that assessment.

One issue I agree with feminists on is how incredibly evil and violent pornography is.

Sundiata wrote:

Totenborg wrote:It's immoral to force them into becoming baby factories. You've got a very... interesting take on women's lib.

My take on this is the Catholic take. We're all baby factories!

Men too.

No one should be seen as such. Men or women.

Totenborg wrote:

Sundiata wrote:It's immoral to compel women towards abortion for economic reasons because it forces them to violate the right to life. At the other extreme there's Saudi Arabia where women are not allowed basic freedoms.

Women are oppressed all over the world in different ways.

It's immoral to force them into becoming baby factories. You've got a very... interesting take on women's lib.

Literally where is this happening in a Western country

Yawkland wrote:One issue I agree with feminists on is how incredibly evil and violent pornography is.

A large portion of feminists don't agree with you. Porn is fine. Exploitative porn is not.

Totenborg wrote:

Yawkland wrote:One issue I agree with feminists on is how incredibly evil and violent pornography is.

A large portion of feminists don't agree with you. Porn is fine. Exploitative porn is not.

Professionally-produced porn is almost entirely exploitative. It's basically legalized sex trafficking and rape. Imagine Harvey Weinstein on steroids. Come to think of it, many of Harvey's associates are probably porn producers.

Amateur porn varies on a case-by-case basis but I'd wager a good chunk of it is not truly consensual.