The NationStates Feminist Thread III

[Thepeopl]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... nVJkPikAuP

Very long read.
But according to this paper, the cut in payment wasn't due to "men curdling", but to "too successful "
More men participated than expected. And the worldwide crash made this payment rule too expensive.

Also, they have found ways to compensate those couples by other funds.

And most importantly:

Studies made in 2006 showed that women’s attitudes towards promotions and
management position changed between 1994 and 2006. Before, marriage and
childbirth decreased women’s interest in both, but in the latter study they did not.
Also, a Gallup survey in 2006 showed that the majority of respondents thought that
the parental leave laws had significantly improved women’s position in the labour
market
In addition, the change in the law has resulted in some men being terminated after
paternity leave, something that only happened previously to women after maternity
leave. This was reported both in an annual report of a trade union and a Capacent
Gallup survey. These surveys are discussed in more detail in chapter 5 of this
report.

Yes it sucks to get fired after parenting leave. But it is more equality.

[Galloism]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ec.europa.eu/social/BlobServlet%3FdocId%3D2265%26langId%3Den&ved=2ahUKEwjgrOutvcrmAhVMTsAKHVptD2cQFjACegQIEBAI&usg=AOvVaw0KJRgqRq8-OEnVJkPikAuP

Very long read.
But according to this paper, the cut in payment wasn't due to "men curdling", but to "too successful "
More men participated than expected. And the worldwide crash made this payment rule too expensive.

Also, they have found ways to compensate those couples by other funds.

And most importantly:

Studies made in 2006 showed that women’s attitudes towards promotions and
management position changed between 1994 and 2006. Before, marriage and
childbirth decreased women’s interest in both, but in the latter study they did not.
Also, a Gallup survey in 2006 showed that the majority of respondents thought that
the parental leave laws had significantly improved women’s position in the labour
market
In addition, the change in the law has resulted in some men being terminated after
paternity leave, something that only happened previously to women after maternity
leave. This was reported both in an annual report of a trade union and a Capacent
Gallup survey. These surveys are discussed in more detail in chapter 5 of this
report.

Yes - as a rule (exceptions exist), men desperately want to be home and spend time with their families - it's easier than their regular jobs and more rewarding - but society won't let them.

That's why I say the wage gap is caused by oppression of men. Thanks for proving my point.

They had an opportunity. They took it. The government took it away.

[Thepeopl]

-snip-
So they’re getting the better end of this bargain. No one on their death bed wish they spent more time at the office. They wish they had been there for the first word, first steps, first day of school... -snip-

Nobody is wishing on their deathbed they had changed more diapers, lots of ppl wish they had had more promotion, had accomplished more in their work field.

It's not about getting the better deal. It's about both partners getting equal rights and chances.

The opportunity to choose.

[Galloism]

-snip-
So they’re getting the better end of this bargain. No one on their death bed wish they spent more time at the office. They wish they had been there for the first word, first steps, first day of school... -snip-

Nobody is wishing on their deathbed they had changed more diapers, lots of ppl wish they had had more promotion, had accomplished more in their work field.

Basically nobody wishes for that on their death bed. Find me anyone who said "Son... I wish... I wish.... I wish I had made it to Level 3 Manager. Aughhhhhhhhhh."

(And for the record, I have met men who wished they had changed diapers - explicitly, because they feel like they missed out on raising their children.)

It's not about getting the better deal. It's about both partners getting equal rights and chances.

The opportunity to choose.

That would be nice - but you'll have to focus where the problem really is. Oppression of men and requirement for them to work, while the wife gets to stay home.

[Thepeopl]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ec.europa.eu/social/BlobServlet%3FdocId%3D2265%26langId%3Den&ved=2ahUKEwjgrOutvcrmAhVMTsAKHVptD2cQFjACegQIEBAI&usg=AOvVaw0KJRgqRq8-OEnVJkPikAuP

Very long read.
But according to this paper, the cut in payment wasn't due to "men curdling", but to "too successful "
More men participated than expected. And the worldwide crash made this payment rule too expensive.

Also, they have found ways to compensate those couples by other funds.

And most importantly:

Yes - as a rule (exceptions exist), men desperately want to be home and spend time with their families - it's easier than their regular jobs and more rewarding - but society won't let them.

That's why I say the wage gap is caused by oppression of men. Thanks for proving my point.

They had an opportunity. They took it. The government took it away.

The world wide financial crisis took it away, and Icelandic government has been trying to patch this up by appropriating other funds to compensate the couples who lost too much income by the cut in paternity leave payments

[Galloism]

Yes - as a rule (exceptions exist), men desperately want to be home and spend time with their families - it's easier than their regular jobs and more rewarding - but society won't let them.

That's why I say the wage gap is caused by oppression of men. Thanks for proving my point.

They had an opportunity. They took it. The government took it away.

The world wide financial crisis took it away, and Icelandic government has been trying to patch this up by appropriating other funds to compensate the couples who lost too much income by the cut in paternity leave payments

Potato potatoe.

Suffice to say, it was taken away.

[Thepeopl]

Nobody is wishing on their deathbed they had changed more diapers, lots of ppl wish they had had more promotion, had accomplished more in their work field.

Basically nobody wishes for that on their death bed. Find me anyone who said "Son... I wish... I wish.... I wish I had made it to Level 3 Manager. Aughhhhhhhhhh."

(And for the record, I have met men who wished they had changed diapers - explicitly, because they feel like they missed out on raising their children.)

It's not about getting the better deal. It's about both partners getting equal rights and chances.

The opportunity to choose.

That would be nice - but you'll have to focus where the problem really is. Oppression of men and requirement for them to work, while the wife gets to stay home.

Ah, so you would like to fire all men as soon as they get married?

No choice.

And the diaper wish, probably men who never changed a diaper. I was referring to more diapers.

Yes men miss out on a lot of moments with their families, so do working women.

Yes I believe men would love to spend more time with their families, but if you asked them to be the stay at home parent and do the whole household chores, not a lot of men would agree.

And I don't condemn them, as the saying goes:
A man works from sun till sun, a womans work is never done.

I would like to change that into equal rights/ workloads

[Thepeopl]

The world wide financial crisis took it away, and Icelandic government has been trying to patch this up by appropriating other funds to compensate the couples who lost too much income by the cut in paternity leave payments

Potato potatoe.

Suffice to say, it was taken away.

No.

In your version it was suppression of men.

In my version it was bad luck, and as soon as it was possible government tried to repair it.

And I wish every country in the world had paternity leave.
Iceland has made paternity leave 1 year long, as of December 2019.

[Galloism]

Basically nobody wishes for that on their death bed. Find me anyone who said "Son... I wish... I wish.... I wish I had made it to Level 3 Manager. Aughhhhhhhhhh."

(And for the record, I have met men who wished they had changed diapers - explicitly, because they feel like they missed out on raising their children.)


That would be nice - but you'll have to focus where the problem really is. Oppression of men and requirement for them to work, while the wife gets to stay home.

Ah, so you would like to fire all men as soon as they get married?

Clearly, that's exactly what I was saying. No nuance whatsoever.

Yes I believe men would love to spend more time with their families, but if you asked them to be the stay at home parent and do the whole household chores, not a lot of men would agree.

This probably isn't true. At least, not more true than it is among women.

https://www.pipelineequity.com/katicas- ... -the-norm/

Working Fathers Want to Stay Home
Working fathers want to stay home. In fact, 48% of them would prefer to stay home with their children.

The reality, however, is different than their desire. Dads currently account for 16% of all stay-at-home parents, and 6% of U.S. households with children under the age of 18 have stay-at-home dads.

So while 48% of working fathers have expressed a desire to stay home, we know they receive a boost at work when they have children. The opposite is true for women, despite the fact that 40% of households with children have breadwinner moms.

Clearly, being a stay-at-home dad is not the norm, nor are we close. But what if it were? What would it take to get there?

Almost half of men would prefer to be stay at home dads, with all that entails.

And I don't condemn them, as the saying goes:
A man works from sun till sun, a womans work is never done.

I would like to change that into equal rights/ workloads

Well, then you're going to need to get women to do more work.

Or allow men to do less.

Or both.

[West Leas Oros 2]

The absolute cruelty of our societies imposing subjugation on all those people who reach retirement age.

Just imagine it. Providing for them. Expecting them to stay at home.

Such absolute horror. How on earth could socialists do this to people? The monsters.

And as we all know, retired people are very glad not to have contact with their children. It's the one thing they routinely bring up to explain how while they may be viciously oppressed by the government giving them pensions, at least they don't have it as bad as women.

But then again, we happen to know boomers have a victim complex and we can empirically prove they don't view these kind of topics rationally but have some sort of compulsion to view themselves as victims of a situation, so maybe they're full of shit and it's actually fine and just searching for reasons to whine and explain how nobody appreciates them because they have an overinflated impression of their own importance which we can scientifically measure. We know they think there's a conspiracy against them because they think their shit smells of roses and others don't agree, we can and have literally measured it. So maybe all this talk of the brutal oppression of retirees is nonsense.

( /s. I mean, imagine being worse than boomers? Jesus Christ, feminism has absolutely ruined some people.)

You know the whole thing with homophobic clergy and the expression; "Externalizing an internal struggle?"

Feminists will never be happy with society because society isn't the problem.

And yet we live in a society.

[New haven america]

Basically nobody wishes for that on their death bed. Find me anyone who said "Son... I wish... I wish.... I wish I had made it to Level 3 Manager. Aughhhhhhhhhh."

(And for the record, I have met men who wished they had changed diapers - explicitly, because they feel like they missed out on raising their children.)


That would be nice - but you'll have to focus where the problem really is. Oppression of men and requirement for them to work, while the wife gets to stay home.

Ah, so you would like to fire all men as soon as they get married?

No choice.

And the diaper wish, probably men who never changed a diaper. I was referring to more diapers.

Yes men miss out on a lot of moments with their families, so do working women.

Yes I believe men would love to spend more time with their families, but if you asked them to be the stay at home parent and do the whole household chores, not a lot of men would agree.

And I don't condemn them, as the saying goes:
A man works from sun till sun, a womans work is never done.

I would like to change that into equal rights/ workloads

I wouldn't mind being a SAHD, don't have to get a full time job while getting to spend most of my time hanging out with the kid and working on the house? Sign me up.

But I'm a guy who's not handsome enough to have women flocking to me, especially successful women, so I don't get that choice.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

So I was recently made aware of this test that I think is pretty nifty called the 5 Scale Feminism Test by IDR Labs. It basically tries to say what kind of feminist you are.
I got:
Traditionalism: 42%
Liberal Feminism: 84%
Radical Feminism: 36%
Marxist Feminism: 46%
Cultural Feminism: 32%

A couple of problems I have with the test are that there's no MRA or liberal MRA option, and I think it may label you as a traditionalist any time you pick an option that opposes the general feminist option.

[Albrenia]

The hell is 'Marxist' feminism? Like... Communist feminists?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

The hell is 'Marxist' feminism? Like... Communist feminists?

Yeah, I guess.

[Neu California]

From the site (scroll down on the results screen to see definitions)

Marxist Feminism
Marxist Feminism holds that the mode of production in capitalist societies is organized in a way that favors men’s abilities over women’s. As opposed to Radical Feminists, who see patriarchy as the source of gender inequality, Marxist Feminists see capitalism as the cause. Marxist Feminists argue that the structures of capitalist economies coerce women into assuming responsibility for unpaid domestic tasks (such as homemaking and child-rearing) while leaving men free to earn money in the public sphere. Gender equality can therefore never be achieved in a capitalist economy.

While Marxist Feminism was originally about economic revolution, more recent writers have changed their focus from economic issues to cultural ones, placing more of an emphasis on the fight for social justice than the fight to topple capitalism.

Not just women, but also people of color, sexual minorities, and transgender people have become focal points for Marxist Feminism in recent years. Intersectional Feminism is essentially a fusion of Marxist Feminist and Cultural Feminist ideas.

As to my scores

Traditionalism: 23%
Liberal feminism: 83%
Radical feminism (ew): 55%
Marxist feminism: 69%
Cultural feminism: 51%

Seems about right. I suspect my high Marxist feminism score comes from some of my remaining communist leanings (i was an anarcho communist from about 2009 to 2012 before moderating to social democracy for a variety of reasons)

[Albrenia]

My highest score was Liberal Feminism, which isn't really surprising to me.

[Nakena]

I got:

Traditionalism: 52%
Liberal Feminism: 73%
Radical Feminism: 33%
Marxist Feminism: 41%
Cultural Feminism: 27%

[Galloism]

So I was recently made aware of this test that I think is pretty nifty called the 5 Scale Feminism Test by IDR Labs. It basically tries to say what kind of feminist you are.
I got:
Traditionalism: 42%
Liberal Feminism: 84%
Radical Feminism: 36%
Marxist Feminism: 46%
Cultural Feminism: 32%

A couple of problems I have with the test are that there's no MRA or liberal MRA option, and I think it may label you as a traditionalist any time you pick an option that opposes the general feminist option.

I have no idea how to answer question 18 because it starts with a false premise.

[Ostroeuropa]

So I was recently made aware of this test that I think is pretty nifty called the 5 Scale Feminism Test by IDR Labs. It basically tries to say what kind of feminist you are.
I got:
Traditionalism: 42%
Liberal Feminism: 84%
Radical Feminism: 36%
Marxist Feminism: 46%
Cultural Feminism: 32%

A couple of problems I have with the test are that there's no MRA or liberal MRA option, and I think it may label you as a traditionalist any time you pick an option that opposes the general feminist option.

I have no idea how to answer question 18 because it starts with a false premise.

This.

Nonetheless;

Traditionalism 45%
Liberal Feminism 64%
Radical Feminism 36%
Marxist Feminism 45%
Cultural Feminism 31%

[Proctopeo]

While some of the questions were jank, I got

Traditionalism: 64%
Liberal Feminism: 74%
Radical Feminism: 21%
Marxist Feminism: 33%
Cultural Feminism: 16%

I personally think that "feminist critical" would make more sense than "traditionalism", given that the things that could mark you as "traditionalist" are really just opposing feminist orthodoxy.

Interesting though that my results can be boiled down to "equality is good, but feminism isn't equality", which is indeed accurate to my beliefs.

[Samadhi]

That's not a very good test.
A lot of the questions were double negatives and railroaded the answers.

[Auze]

Traditionalism: 68%
Lib Fem: 65%
Rad Fem: 25%
Marxist Fem: 30%
Cultural Fem: 24%
Well that had some very loaded questions. Not sure how other than disliking prostitution I am 1/4 Radfem, but OK.

[New haven america]

That website sucks, lol.

[Ostroeuropa]

We need a law to fine feminist organizations and their managers who don't hire MRAs and allow them to use those institutions to advance mens issues as well as womens, cmv.

("Why don't women just start their own companies instead of demanding male-only ones open up to them?".).

The active exclusion of men participating in this field needs to be rectified, and the large institutions feminists have constructed are actively opposed to rivals from the MRM because they represent competitors for resources.

[Fahran]

We need a law to fine feminist organizations and their managers who don't hire MRAs and allow them to use those institutions to advance mens issues as well as womens, cmv.

("Why don't women just start their own companies instead of demanding male-only ones open up to them?".).

The active exclusion of men participating in this field needs to be rectified, and the large institutions feminists have constructed are actively opposed to rivals from the MRM because they represent competitors for resources.

That'll create a lot of issues when extrapolated to other employment opportunities that rely on ideological distinctions.