The NationStates Feminist Thread III

[Des-Bal]

Oh, true. In many cases, that assumption is a bit silly. No woman ever has gotten butterflies over receiving an unsolicited picture of Fratboy Hunter's junk at 1 AM on a Sunday and yet that continues to be such a pervasive issue that my state criminalized it. I have no idea why some guys think that is something we'd want. I do get making physical advances on a girlfriend or flirting with a female acquaintance possibly falling into that category - namely unsolicited but possibly wanted.

I disagree, I'd say it's received less well often than when women do the same thing but it's not universal.

[Totenborg]

I didn't say that at all. You're mischaracterizing what I said completely. Re-read what I said.

No, it's pretty much what you said. Your preconceptions trump statistics and nothing short of traumatic brain injury will convince you to re-evaluate your opinion, you've been quite clear about how unreasonable you are.

So, you can't tell the difference between flirting and harassment? That's a shame. I didn't say even for a second that women aren't capable of harassment. I said that men are more likely to perpetuate the act.

[Galloism]

They used to say that about domestic violence too, until we actually studied it and found that to be 100% false.

You yourself classify behavior differently based on gender, Mr "Hey totes it's only flirting when women coworkers do it".

I didn't say that at all. You're mischaracterizing what I said completely. Re-read what I said.

I read what you said quite well. I also know how cognitive biases work.

The difference is less actor behavioral differences and more recipient perceptual differences, based on gender, race, and attractiveness of the actor.

One of our major cognitive flaws, btw.

[Ostroeuropa]

Sexual harassment is often not exclusively sexual either, for instance demanding women make the coffees in a workplace environment constitutes sexual harassment. With this view, men almost certainly experience an equivalent amount of sexual harassment to women.

[Galloism]

I'm not saying it is solicited I'm saying the thing my point is that not all unsolicited conduct is unwanted conduct and in some arenas there is the abiding assumption that this is something that will be positively received.

Oh, true. In many cases, that assumption is a bit silly. No woman ever has gotten butterflies over receiving an unsolicited picture of Fratboy Hunter's junk at 1 AM on a Sunday and yet that continues to be such a pervasive issue that my state criminalized it. I have no idea why some guys think that is something we'd want. I do get making physical advances on a girlfriend or flirting with a female acquaintance possibly falling into that category - namely unsolicited but possibly wanted.

Having gotten more than my fair share of unsolicited boob pics on the internet, and one by mistaken number on text message, I still wonder how much is recipient perception regarding the act, rather than the act itself.

[Totenborg]

I didn't say that at all. You're mischaracterizing what I said completely. Re-read what I said.

No, it's pretty much what you said. Your preconceptions trump statistics and nothing short of traumatic brain injury will convince you to re-evaluate your opinion, you've been quite clear about how unreasonable you are.

Statistics: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... harassment

[Ostroeuropa]

Oh, true. In many cases, that assumption is a bit silly. No woman ever has gotten butterflies over receiving an unsolicited picture of Fratboy Hunter's junk at 1 AM on a Sunday and yet that continues to be such a pervasive issue that my state criminalized it. I have no idea why some guys think that is something we'd want. I do get making physical advances on a girlfriend or flirting with a female acquaintance possibly falling into that category - namely unsolicited but possibly wanted.

Having gotten more than my fair share of unsolicited boob pics on the internet, and one by mistaken number on text message, I still wonder how much is recipient perception regarding the act, rather than the act itself.

In Japan, symptoms of the menopause aren't regarded as troubling, are often reported in neutral terms absent of discomfort, and are sometimes reported as quite pleasurable. In the west it is reported as a highly negative experience in physical and emotional terms.

The theory is that status in Japan escalates over time, while status in the west peaks in the middle of your life. While the menopause represents transitioning into becoming an "Elder" in Japan, it represents something negative in the west.

The way we perceive sexual harassment and assault has an impact on how people experience it. Fahran says that obviously we need to take feminists seriously about this because 80% of women experience it. But that doesn't actually justify their framing of the issue. It could be they are traumatizing people by turning what could be a neutral or passive incident into something major that changes their status as a human being in a negative way. (Shifting them to a victim category.).

If that is the case, feminist campaigning about the issue has done more damage than the acts themselves.

Fahran also insists we take it seriously because it is common. But maybe people simply don't care and that's okay? I'll refer back to the womens carriage option. Apparently women would rather just go in the non-segregated carriage and they don't care about the supposed epidemic of sexual harassment, even when the carriage is offered to them and already exists.

The extent of sexual harassment and assault and discussion of it conflates a wide range of behaviors and reactions to them, at the low end of the scale it's possible people simply view them as social faux pas and awkward behavior rather than something that actually needs dealing with by some kind of campaign. This also accounts for a large amount of the behavior and incidents of it.

There's also the highly negative consequences of feminist campaigning on this issue more broadly for our society in terms of mental health, social cohesion and wellbeing and so on. It may be making us more mentally ill, more right wing, more isolated, more selfish, and so on. (See touch deprivation epidemic and its connection to the climate of fear feminists have fostered on the issue of casual touch.).

[Des-Bal]

Statistics: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... harassment

I don't really see the purpose in discussing that data with you, you've been very clear you don't care about. You have your preconceptions, and you have stated that only brain damage would persuade you your initial assumptions are wrong.

[Totenborg]

Statistics: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... harassment

I don't really see the purpose in discussing that data with you, you've been very clear you don't care about. You have your preconceptions, and you have stated that only brain damage would persuade you your initial assumptions are wrong.

Awww. Now you don't care about the facts. I said that brain damage would be the only thing that could convince me, and that's true. It's because it would render me incapable of observing empirical facts. However, I could also be convinced if the issue also stopped being an issue.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't really see the purpose in discussing that data with you, you've been very clear you don't care about. You have your preconceptions, and you have stated that only brain damage would persuade you your initial assumptions are wrong.

Awww. Now you don't care about the facts. I said that brain damage would be the only thing that could convince me, and that's true. It's because it would render me incapable of observing empirical facts. However, I could also be convinced if the issue also stopped being an issue.

The person who created the study framed it as;

The survey also involved a broader definition of sexual harassment that includes the "continuum of experiences" that women face, she says.

If you build your concept of sexual harrassment around behaviors that women face, it is not a shocking outcome to find women experience them more. Absent from the list are forms of sexual harassment more common in men (though not necessarily absent in women.), and that is by the admitted design of the study. This is a fairly simplistic form of bias shown in the study.

For instance if I up and decided to conduct a study on "The problems white people face" I could show that "See? White people have problems more often than black people" if I simply forgot that I created the study along different parameters.

All you have shown is that women face kinds of sexual harassment they experience more often than men that women face more often than men, it is practically tautologous. You could reproduce the study with precisely the opposite results by designing the study around mens experiences and then asking both sexes.

This is a pretty basic failure of comprehension on how to conduct a study and interpret results on your part.

[Galloism]

No, it's pretty much what you said. Your preconceptions trump statistics and nothing short of traumatic brain injury will convince you to re-evaluate your opinion, you've been quite clear about how unreasonable you are.

Statistics: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... harassment

There's nothing gendered about this at all.

Please check off each type of sexually harassing or abusive experience/s you have ever had and
where they took place. Note that this is focused on interactions you did not willingly agree to or did
not want to have.

1. Someone whistling, honking, making kissy noises, “Pssst” sounds, or leering/staring
aggressively at you.
2. Someone saying things like, “Hey Baby,” “Mmmm Sexy,” “Yo Shorty,” “Mami/Mamacita,”
“Give me a smile,” or similar comments in a way that is disrespectful and/or unwanted
and/or made you feel unsafe.
3. Someone calling you a sexist slur, like “Bitch,” “Slut,” “Cunt,” “Ho” or “Thot.”
4. Someone misgendering you or calling you a homophobic or transphobic slur, like “Fag,”
“Dyke,” or “Tranny.”
5. Someone talking about your body parts inappropriately or offensively (such as your legs,
crotch, butt, or breasts), saying sexually explicit comments (“I want to do BLANK to you”) or
asking inappropriate sexual questions.
6. Someone making threats to harm you, to harm someone you know, or to share personal
information you don’t want shared (such as your sexual orientation)
7. Someone saying you must date them or do a sexual act for them in exchange for
something (such as a good grade, a promotion, a job, drugs, food, or something similar) or
instead of something (like paying rent or a citation, etc).
8. Someone repeatedly texting or calling you in a harassing way.
9. Someone repeatedly asking you for a date or your phone number when you’ve said no or
ignored them.
10. Someone electronically sending you or showing you sexual content without your
permission, such as over e-mail, snapchat or Facebook or on their phone or computer.
11. Someone taking and/or sharing sexual pictures or videos of you without your permission.
12. Someone flashing or exposing their genitals to you without your permission.
13. Someone physically following you without your permission.
14. Someone purposely touching you or brushing up against you in an unwelcome, sexual way.
15. Someone forcing you to do a sexual act without your permission or one that you don’t want
to do (including while you are under the influence of alcohol or drugs).

Notice that framing - all the examples of slurs are slurs used against women, with no slurs against men shown, and all the examples of other harassment are gendered female, with no male equivalents. Besides that, in a society that says all sexual attention from women is welcome attention, and women can never be abusive or sexually harassing:

each type of sexually harassing or abusive experience/s

The question framing is actually designed to make men answer in a way that is negative, whereupon the survey ends:

If they are selected “NEVER Happened” for all items in Q1, they were done taking the survey.

And even with such sexist framing attempting to eliminate male respondents, 43% of male respondents still responded affirmatively. This is what I'm talking about with framing. You think women receive it more than men? Maybe. It's possible, but given the sexist framing of the given study, it's hard to say for certain.

[Des-Bal]

Awww. Now you don't care about the facts. I said that brain damage would be the only thing that could convince me, and that's true. It's because it would render me incapable of observing empirical facts. However, I could also be convinced if the issue also stopped being an issue.

No actually you said only a traumatic brain injury could persuade you, you said this in response to a deluge of facts and statistics. I've never denied facts, I recognized the study, you'll note the discussion of the studies implications and factors that may have influenced it's results.

You on the other hand don't value facts, you sometimes use them as a coat of paint on your preconceptions but they have no bearing on the structure of what you say so discussing them with you doesn't seem to have any merits. That is why Fahran is having a conversation about the cultural factors that lead to sexually inappropriate behavior and you're just sort of flinging mud hoping to get a rise out of someone.

[Ostroeuropa]

Time to conduct a weirdo meta-study (not meta study in the usual sense, but a study that is meta) that does what we're talking about and surveys about sexual harassment in an androcentric fashion and leads participants into a certain way of viewing it. If the results show men experience sexual harassment more than women, that study can then conclude through reference to other studies that public perceptions on the topic have been warped by biased feminist campaigning. Then you follow that up with the actual meta-study of going through sexual harassment surveys and noting this persistent gynocentrism, tying it back to the androcentric study, and so on.

The issue would be getting funding.

"Meta"-Study conclusion if results hold with hypothesis; "Hypothesis can be further tested with a meta study."
Meta-study.

So two studies. Damn studies wanting you to focus on like, one very specific data set otherwise it's bad form.

[Fahran]

The survey mentioned many of the negative effects this harassment had on both men and women. Yes, culture does impact how experiences are received, but, when 31% of women are saying they've experienced anxiety or depression as a result of sexual harassment or sexual assault, I don't think you can chalk it up solely to feminists overreacting. Most women aren't ideologues. Most women don't apply feminist theories to situations in an analytical way. We're talking nearly a third of women complaining about something and telling you it has harmed them - and then you pretty much telling them that those perceptions aren't too important because they wouldn't occur in a different cultural environment. While, at the same time, telling us that we should consider the concerns of men that result from cultural perceptions. 1 in 10 women changed jobs over this. 1 in 4/5 women changed daily routes over this. 1 in 20 women changed where they lived. 1 in 50 women change their education over this. It's an issue. We work within culture even as we work to change it, and I don't think we should strive for a world where women are uncomfortable with someone touching them but brush it off as unimportant. On the contrary, I want to do the opposite. Men should be able to voice their discomfort more.

[Ostroeuropa]

The survey mentioned many of the negative effects this harassment had on both men and women. Yes, culture does impact how experiences are received, but, when 31% of women are saying they've experienced anxiety or depression as a result of sexual harassment or sexual assault, I don't think you can chalk it up solely to feminists overreacting. Most women aren't ideologues. Most women don't apply feminist theories to situations in an analytical way. We're talking nearly a third of women complaining about something and telling you it has harmed them - and then you pretty much telling them that those perceptions aren't too important because they wouldn't occur in a different cultural environment. While, at the same time, telling us that we should consider the concerns of men that result from cultural perceptions.

I'm arguing that the 31% who have experienced anxiety or depression may well not be discussing the low grade incidents which are treated as part of the same problem, akin to the hypothetical I offered of someone forgetting to say thankyou to a waiter being equated with verbal abuse of waiting staff. Browbeating people with "Well you should thank the waiting staff, right?" and "Why do you support verbally abusing people and bullying them?" misses the point entirely.

There's also the issue of touch deprivation and the consequences on societal health arising from this prolonged campaign to demonize non consensual casual contact. If your ideas when applied cause a breakdown in society, they're shit ideas Fahran. You also can't really dismiss my point with "Well women change routes and stuff" because thats after you've already messed with their heads and told them menopause (low grade sexual stuff) is this super terrible thing they should have bad feelings about.

So you've demonized something that doesn't need to be demonized and almost all women (and many men) experience and convinced them something terrible has happened to them when it does, wound society up about physical contact to the point it's causing mental health problems and a collapse in social cohesion, and so on.

It just seems like maybe feminists should get a grip instead.

[Sovaal]

No, it's pretty much what you said. Your preconceptions trump statistics and nothing short of traumatic brain injury will convince you to re-evaluate your opinion, you've been quite clear about how unreasonable you are.

So, you can't tell the difference between flirting and harassment? That's a shame. I didn't say even for a second that women aren't capable of harassment. I said that men are more likely to perpetuate the act.

Pretty sure that harassment is a subjective experience.

[Galloism]

The survey mentioned many of the negative effects this harassment had on both men and women. Yes, culture does impact how experiences are received, but, when 31% of women are saying they've experienced anxiety or depression as a result of sexual harassment or sexual assault, I don't think you can chalk it up solely to feminists overreacting. Most women aren't ideologues. Most women don't apply feminist theories to situations in an analytical way. We're talking nearly a third of women complaining about something and telling you it has harmed them - and then you pretty much telling them that those perceptions aren't too important because they wouldn't occur in a different cultural environment. While, at the same time, telling us that we should consider the concerns of men that result from cultural perceptions. 1 in 10 women changed jobs over this. 1 in 4/5 women changed daily routes over this. 1 in 20 women changed where they lived. 1 in 50 women change their education over this. It's an issue.

Keep in mind, the survey stops if you say no to those things - none of the rest of the questions get asked. And many of those questions and examples were specifically gendered.

And we can see how depression manifests in men vs women - women are allowed to express their depression and frustration. Men are expected by society to either buck up and deal with it or kill themselves honorably. I don't necessarily think women are "faking it" and I think it's a real issue. I just think it's a real issue for men too - except we tell them to either deal with it or kill themselves.

You can find similar effects in the mental health numbers. Women report being depressed than men far more often. So if you look at numbers of people being treated for depression, women are much higher.

But men are the vast majority of people who kill themselves, which is almost always due to depression.

It's probably not that women are more depressed than men - it's probably that men are not allowed to express it in any other way except killing themselves.

And it's probably the same with sexual harassment, and things of that nature, more or less.

[Aclion]

I'm not saying it is solicited I'm saying the thing my point is that not all unsolicited conduct is unwanted conduct and in some arenas there is the abiding assumption that this is something that will be positively received.

Oh, true. In many cases, that assumption is a bit silly. No woman ever has gotten butterflies over receiving an unsolicited picture of Fratboy Hunter's junk at 1 AM on a Sunday and yet that continues to be such a pervasive issue that my state criminalized it. I have no idea why some guys think that is something we'd want. I do get making physical advances on a girlfriend or flirting with a female acquaintance possibly falling into that category - namely unsolicited but possibly wanted.

I don't think the guys doing are doing it because they think girls like it.

This is not only sexist from the people from which it comes - it's also super ironic.

Never actually thought about it but yeah, feminists virgin shaming is just a roundabout form of turning woman into sex objects.

[Galloism]

This is not only sexist from the people from which it comes - it's also super ironic.

Never actually thought about it but yeah, feminists virgin shaming is just a roundabout form of turning woman into sex objects.

Eh, I don't really feel like sexism transference is a thing we should do.

Virgin shaming is just a form of shaming based around men not living up to their proscribed gender roles. Such people aren't against gender roles - they're against gender roles applying to women. They're ok with gender roles applied to men (you can see this in things like the Gillette ad as well, which wasn't based around sexuality, but the proscribed male gender role of protector). And that producer, who had a large amount to do with the content, was a dyed in the wool feminist, and the ad was touted as a feminist ad.

I think it's very very hard to actually believe in equality at your core and be a feminist, because of how much the ideology tries to warp the worldview of the participants when it comes to how sexism and gender roles actually work. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's very very hard.

Sort of like being a fundamentalist 7th day adventist who believes in gender equality. That's a super hard concept.

[Fahran]

I'm arguing that the 31% who have experienced anxiety or depression may well not be discussing the low grade incidents which are treated as part of the same problem, akin to the hypothetical I offered of someone forgetting to say thankyou to a waiter being equated with verbal abuse of waiting staff. Browbeating people with "Well you should thank the waiting staff, right?" and "Why do you support verbally abusing people and bullying them?" misses the point entirely.

It's true that a wide range of behaviors, ranging from inappropriate comments to outright rape, came into the study, but there's a huge difference between your example of not thanking waitstaff and even the most rudimentary sort of sexual harassment/misconduct. I really don't like it when strange men make lewd comments about my body or engage in rapey remarks aimed at me - which is one of the more tame behaviors mentioned in the study. Even the "mild" behaviors addressed in the survey can cause extreme distress or annoyance when they occur repeatedly. I know women who won't even read snaps they get from strange men because dick pics have become such a common thing that we all just assume that's what the snap is.

There's also the issue of touch deprivation and the consequences on societal health arising from this prolonged campaign to demonize non consensual casual contact. If your ideas when applied cause a breakdown in society, they're shit ideas Fahran.

I do understand pushing back against the more extreme rhetoric on this issue, but, here, it's an altogether different issue. There's a difference from approaching a woman (or man) at a bar or in a bookstore, offering to buy her (him) a drink or chatting about books, and/or flirting and making someone so uncomfortable that they feel anxious and consider changing jobs or dropping a class. And lewd cat-calling and gestures aimed at people you don't know is almost always going to get a reaction that isn't positive.

[Hirota]

I don't really see the purpose in discussing that data with you, you've been very clear you don't care about. You have your preconceptions, and you have stated that only brain damage would persuade you your initial assumptions are wrong.

Awww. Now you don't care about the facts. I said that brain damage would be the only thing that could convince me, and that's true. It's because it would render me incapable of observing empirical facts. However, I could also be convinced if the issue also stopped being an issue.

Problem being that the shoddy methodolgy undermines it's credibility as "empirical."

[Fahran]

Problem being that the shoddy methodolgy undermines it's credibility as "empirical."

The methodology likely errs more to the side of downplaying the extent to which men experience sexual harassment than in overplaying the extent to which women experience sexual harassment.

[Fahran]

I don't think the guys doing are doing it because they think girls like it.

Why then? Is it like a bad joke?

[Fahran]

It's probably not that women are more depressed than men - it's probably that men are not allowed to express it in any other way except killing themselves.

And it's probably the same with sexual harassment, and things of that nature, more or less.

I'm inclined to agree to an extent, though, again, some of the disparity in suicide rates has to do with the methods employed as well, with the methods men choose with greater frequency having a higher success rate. Women self-report attempting suicide three times more often than men do. I think it's quite possible that men and women experience and manifest depression and suicidal thoughts in different ways, especially given that many men who die by suicide are not documented to have made an attempt in the past whereas 62% of women who commit suicide have made a previous attempt. This could likewise be explained by differences in methods as well.

Source.

[Des-Bal]

I'm inclined to agree to an extent, though, again, some of the disparity in suicide rates has to do with the methods employed as well, with the methods men choose with greater frequency having a higher success rate. Women self-report attempting suicide three times more often than men do. I think it's quite possible that men and women experience and manifest depression and suicidal thoughts in different ways, especially given that many men who die by suicide are not documented to have made an attempt in the past whereas 62% of women who commit suicide have made a previous attempt. This could likewise be explained by differences in methods as well.

Source.

I think the analysis of methods tends to stop asking questions prematurely. Why do men choose the methods they do? Are women 3x less competent at judging what will kill them than men? I think that failed suicide attempts are often manifestations of a cry for help, that men in general do not seek. I think that it is perfectly intentional that women's most common methods leave open the possibility of survival or intervention and men's don't.