The NationStates Feminist Thread III

[Ors Might]

From the content of the recent posts, one could be forgiven for thinking (as many new posters seem to do) that this thread would be more aptly named the anti-feminist thread

Criticism of feminism falls under the topic of feminism, does it not?

[Crysuko]

We get called out for being moles sent out by the patriarchy to masquerade as the enemy and bring down feminism from within, which somehow feels more insulting to me, personally. Probably because the people doing so were the type of girls who rolled their eyes at me whenever I talked about feminism before going back to gabbing about hair and boys, up until we all went to college where suddenly they became all super-woke-enlightened and now want to lecture me like I'm the one who was living in the dark the whole time.

How often have you found that such people actually read any feminist theory to any degree? To what extent have they read any feminist science fiction even?

feminist science fiction? Christ, Edom I can only get so disdainful.

[Galloism]

From the content of the recent posts, one could be forgiven for thinking (as many new posters seem to do) that this thread would be more aptly named the anti-feminist thread

Think about this though. And it's an interesting thought.

When feminism started to gain steam, most of the criticism against it had to do with subverting traditional roles, norms, social mores, etc. Essentially, it was the argument that feminism was trying to subvert the status quo and was therefore too liberal.

Now, the major criticisms of feminism has to do with it entrenching social inequality, trying to preserve certain gender roles, etc. Essentially, the argument is that feminism is trying to entrench the status quo and is therefore too conservative.

It is interesting how society has shifted.

[The Grene Knyght]

From the content of the recent posts, one could be forgiven for thinking (as many new posters seem to do) that this thread would be more aptly named the anti-feminist thread

Criticism of feminism falls under the topic of feminism, does it not?

would you really call some of those posts criticisms?
Want me to pull some quotes? Play you a highlights reel?

[Crysuko]

Criticism of feminism falls under the topic of feminism, does it not?

would you really call some of those posts criticisms?
Want me to pull some quotes? Play you a highlights reel?

"Everyone who disagrees with me is a shitlord, here's an opinion piece to prove it!"

[Ors Might]

Criticism of feminism falls under the topic of feminism, does it not?

would you really call some of those posts criticisms?
Want me to pull some quotes? Play you a highlights reel?

Would you like a list of all the questionable things feminists have said and done? I could make a slide show for you.

[New Edom]

How often have you found that such people actually read any feminist theory to any degree? To what extent have they read any feminist science fiction even?

feminist science fiction? Christ, Edom I can only get so disdainful.

Well, actually, some of it is quite interesting and worth discussing, in my opinion. I've never had an issue discussing feminsm; what I find unacceptable is being forced to accept whatever feminists assert to be true. I'm happy enough to discuss their theories and consider them, as I would those of any ideology.

Of course the record of that ideology may heighten my wariness of their ideas...

[Sernarbia]

Republicans? Nah, those guys suck.

No, you.

When a person literally explains to you that they themselves are a rape victim and the actions you're defending prevents them from ever seeking justice, and your response is to backspace that entire explanation and cut it all down to a nebulous, unspecific assertion that you can just project whatever sort of meaning you want onto in order to avoid having to actually answer anything and instead rely on a self-righteous fail sassy act, feminism's reputation dies a little more.

If you can find me where I advocated him being prevented from seeking justice that'd be great. Might have forgotten to do that while writing your spiel about how evil I am.

So goodbye, so long, you are indeed most useful to the movement being "done here."

Oh, so now yo're one of those 'real feminists' here to lecture us about how we can best get equal rights? I guess that entails allowing antfeminists to dictate how we do things? Yeah, no thanks.

[Ostroeuropa]

No, it's pro-rape.

Yeah, we're done here.

"This behavior is a problem."
"How dare you accuse us of doing wrong, that means I don't have to take your criticism on board."

How do you envision ever improving as a person, Sern?

[Sernarbia]

would you really call some of those posts criticisms?
Want me to pull some quotes? Play you a highlights reel?

Would you like a list of all the questionable things feminists have said and done? I could make a slide show for you.

Only if you do one about all the shitty things antifeminists have done.

[New Edom]

No, you.

When a person literally explains to you that they themselves are a rape victim and the actions you're defending prevents them from ever seeking justice, and your response is to backspace that entire explanation and cut it all down to a nebulous, unspecific assertion that you can just project whatever sort of meaning you want onto in order to avoid having to actually answer anything and instead rely on a self-righteous fail sassy act, feminism's reputation dies a little more.

If you can find me where I advocated him being prevented from seeking justice that'd be great. Might have forgotten to do that while writing your spiel about how evil I am.

So goodbye, so long, you are indeed most useful to the movement being "done here."

Oh, so now yo're one of those 'real feminists' here to lecture us about how we can best get equal rights? I guess that entails allowing antfeminists to dictate how we do things? Yeah, no thanks.

I thought you were leaving. Do you actually want some discussion or what?

[The Grene Knyght]

From the content of the recent posts, one could be forgiven for thinking (as many new posters seem to do) that this thread would be more aptly named the anti-feminist thread

Think about this though. And it's an interesting thought.

When feminism started to gain steam, most of the criticism against it had to do with subverting traditional roles, norms, social mores, etc. Essentially, it was the argument that feminism was trying to subvert the status quo and was therefore too liberal.

Now, the major criticisms of feminism has to do with it entrenching social inequality, trying to preserve certain gender roles, etc. Essentially, the argument is that feminism is trying to entrench the status quo and is therefore too conservative.

It is interesting how society has shifted.

It is indeed. And I'm no fan of mainstream liberal feminism. But for me, personally, and the type of feminism I support, the criticisms you mention existing today ""entrenching social inequality, trying to preserve certain gender roles") have been criticised by at least some since the movement's birth by political figures I quite admire, such as Emma Goldman.

[Sernarbia]

Yeah, we're done here.

"This behavior is a problem."
"How dare you accuse us of doing wrong, that means I don't have to take your criticism on board."

How do you envision ever improving as a person, Sern?

By not worrying about the opinions of people who only want to scream at me that I am evil for being a feminist.

[Ostroeuropa]

Would you like a list of all the questionable things feminists have said and done? I could make a slide show for you.

Only if you do one about all the shitty things antifeminists have done.

"Well, you shouldn't criticize nazis, because look at all the evil people who weren't nazis did."

There's extremely distinct versions of anti-feminism.

[Ors Might]

Would you like a list of all the questionable things feminists have said and done? I could make a slide show for you.

Only if you do one about all the shitty things antifeminists have done.

Sure. Can I do an Israel and India version? I hear the feminists over there have a great track record on protecting rape victims

[Crysuko]

Would you like a list of all the questionable things feminists have said and done? I could make a slide show for you.

Only if you do one about all the shitty things antifeminists have done.

"NO, U!"

[Giovenith]

We get called out for being moles sent out by the patriarchy to masquerade as the enemy and bring down feminism from within, which somehow feels more insulting to me, personally. Probably because the people doing so were the type of girls who rolled their eyes at me whenever I talked about feminism before going back to gabbing about hair and boys, up until we all went to college where suddenly they became all super-woke-enlightened and now want to lecture me like I'm the one who was living in the dark the whole time.

How often have you found that such people actually read any feminist theory to any degree? To what extent have they read any feminist science fiction even?

They don't so much read it as they have their professors explain it to them and then take the professor's interpretation as the Word of God. "My mom professor told me it's sprinkling patriarchy!"

They go in, get all hyped up on horror stories about historical and current oppression against women they honestly should have known about for years, and then become blind sycophants to the theory through sheer reactionary rage over all the new things they've just learned. "How can you not be for feminism?! Don't you know it used to be legal to hit your wife?!" Yes actually, I probably knew that way longer than you have, and I'm not "against feminism," I'm against your version of feminism — your stupid professor doesn't hold the copyright to the movement.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Oh, so now yo're one of those 'real feminists' here to lecture us about how we can best get equal rights? I guess that entails allowing antfeminists to dictate how we do things? Yeah, no thanks.

Uncompromising statements like this are fine when you're just one person.

Example: I am a fucking asshole. Am I going to compromise with you to not be an asshole? Fuck no, you're just one person, and I am still going to be an asshole regardless of what you think of me.

An entire movement trying to get traction in society however might want to take criticism to heart and try to solve the problems being brought to them if they think are worth it. You can't spot your blind sides by being an echo chamber either.

[Sernarbia]

If you can find me where I advocated him being prevented from seeking justice that'd be great. Might have forgotten to do that while writing your spiel about how evil I am.



Oh, so now yo're one of those 'real feminists' here to lecture us about how we can best get equal rights? I guess that entails allowing antfeminists to dictate how we do things? Yeah, no thanks.

I thought you were leaving. Do you actually want some discussion or what?

I did, until this stopped being about feminism and about how evil I supposedly am.

[The Grene Knyght]

would you really call some of those posts criticisms?
Want me to pull some quotes? Play you a highlights reel?

Would you like a list of all the questionable things feminists have said and done? I could make a slide show for you.

I'm not saying that feminists haven't done criticisable things, just that the last page and a half of posts haven't amounted to actual criticisms. Its just been a bunch of people cracking jokes about how bad it is.

[Ors Might]

Think about this though. And it's an interesting thought.

When feminism started to gain steam, most of the criticism against it had to do with subverting traditional roles, norms, social mores, etc. Essentially, it was the argument that feminism was trying to subvert the status quo and was therefore too liberal.

Now, the major criticisms of feminism has to do with it entrenching social inequality, trying to preserve certain gender roles, etc. Essentially, the argument is that feminism is trying to entrench the status quo and is therefore too conservative.

It is interesting how society has shifted.

It is indeed. And I'm no fan of mainstream liberal feminism. But for me, personally, and the type of feminism I support, the criticisms you mention existing today ""entrenching social inequality, trying to preserve certain gender roles") have been criticised by at least some since the movement's birth by political figures I quite admire, such as Emma Goldman.

This is honestly the first time I’ve met a fellow fan of Emma Goldman. Good taste, friend, good taste.

[Giovenith]

Oh, so now yo're one of those 'real feminists' here to lecture us about how we can best get equal rights?

Yes, no need to thank me, you're quite welcome.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I thought you were leaving. Do you actually want some discussion or what?

I did, util this stopped being about feminism and about how evil I supposedly am.

I don't think anyone here has said you are evil.

That your opinions encourage feminism to be viewed in a bad light? Yea, definitely, but not that you're evil. We hardly know you.

[Galloism]

Think about this though. And it's an interesting thought.

When feminism started to gain steam, most of the criticism against it had to do with subverting traditional roles, norms, social mores, etc. Essentially, it was the argument that feminism was trying to subvert the status quo and was therefore too liberal.

Now, the major criticisms of feminism has to do with it entrenching social inequality, trying to preserve certain gender roles, etc. Essentially, the argument is that feminism is trying to entrench the status quo and is therefore too conservative.

It is interesting how society has shifted.

It is indeed. And I'm no fan of mainstream liberal feminism. But for me, personally, and the type of feminism I support, the criticisms you mention existing today ""entrenching social inequality, trying to preserve certain gender roles") have been criticised by at least some since the movement's birth by political figures I quite admire, such as Emma Goldman.

True, there has been some criticism on that front.

It's been largely ignored, but there has been some. Karen DeCrow also had some choice criticisms along those lines.

For the uninitiated, Emma Goldman died in 1940. I don't have any super strong criticisms of Emma Goldman other than she was an anarchist and... no fucking thanks.

[Ors Might]

Would you like a list of all the questionable things feminists have said and done? I could make a slide show for you.

I'm not saying that feminists haven't done criticisable things, just that the last page and a half of posts haven't amounted to actual criticisms. Its just been a bunch of people cracking jokes about how bad it is.

True but then again there’s been well over a hundred pages on this thread with legitimate criticisms. A few jokes does not make it an anti-feminism thread.