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Globalists: how do we respond to resurgent nationalism?

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Neu Leonstein
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Globalists: how do we respond to resurgent nationalism?

Postby Neu Leonstein » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:28 pm

So I am happy to be called a globalist. I think nationstates are historical accidents and that we could do better. Think the big catastrophes of the 20th century were the consequence of nationalism at least as much as of particular ideologies. Prefer multilateral over national or bilateral institutions. Don't think that you've got a right to pick where your neighbour was born. All of that.

But it would be intellectually dishonest to not recognise that globalism has suffered some setbacks over the past couple of years. I am hesitant to overemphasise this: Trump won because of the quirks of the electoral college system and a couple of football stadiums worth of voters in exactly the right places. Brexit won by a small margin, driven by people who won't be around in twenty years. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that my own views are extreme relative to the views of the majority of society.

So when someone pointed me to this article, I read with interest: http://www.the-american-interest.com/20 ... globalism/

The article claims that a) lots of people attach a lot of value to familiarity, to being surrounded by people who look the same, speak the same language, follow the same customs, etc (even if most of the time, they struggle to actually define their "culture"); b) lots of people, when they see the social structures they are familiar with under threat (whether real or perceived), react by becoming more authoritarian, even when normally they aren't particularly authoritarian and don't have a particular hatred for people who aren't like them; and c) Trump, Wilders, Le Pen etc are a symptom of this, resulting from an excessive pace of the sort of globalisation that triggers these people (i.e. it's more about immigration than about free trade).

So, the article argues, globalisation may have to be slowed down intentionally to make sure people with nationalist preferences don't get triggered. It suggests that this is not a matter of preferences: globalisation will be slowed down either way... the choice is about how this happens.

The thing I find challenging about this, is that I have a very fundamental distaste for barriers to cross-border anything, including cross-border migration. Like I said above, I don't believe in a right to pick the place of birth of your neighbour. If you tell me that I'm not allowed to be part of society because I was born in a different place, I think of that as unjust.

So, to those of you who with globalist tendencies... what lessons, if any, do you draw from the events of the last few years?
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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:35 pm

I don't think there's anything that can be done, for now, honestly. Nobody trusts the forecasts of social scientists, seeing is believing: so it would take several years of things getting worse before people decide to embrace globalization again, and if things don't get worse then we may have reached peak globalization for the time being until some new technological transformation comes along.
Last edited by Hydesland on Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Lone Alliance
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:42 pm

The problem is that the symbol of globalism isn't nice happy people singing "It's a small world after all" but multinational corporations making everyone their bitch.

There's also the false image that all cultures and people can get along with one another.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:48 pm

I may be irrationally optimistic here, but I believe that globalisation's setbacks have been blips and not a change of trajectory for the course of history. As you said yourself, one of the votes was won with the help of people who will no longer be with us in twenty years' time - and they will be taking their politics with them. It is not news that the younger generation was on the opposite side of their elders in these setbacks: young people voted disproportionately Remain and Clinton, while older people voted disproportionately in the favour of Trump and Leave. These have been two battles lost to an old kind of politics: a politics of division and cultural identity that is anachronistic in the 21st century. The drive of younger voters is a bane for nationalism, nativism and the 'closed world' politics of the populists. The battles we have lost are signals that our message is not coming out clearly enough, that we need to improve our way of communicating so our ambitions translate into cross-generational support. And over time, the young people of today will be the old voters of tomorrow, and with them they will continue to push the trend of globalism and globalisation forward.
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Tybra
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Postby Tybra » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:30 pm

This is a question i've been pondering about myself recently Lately i've been confronted with my thoughts becoming more radical, if you can call it that, on particularly the formation of a European state. Foregoing more democratic and liberal approaches to more Bismarckian methods (war with Britain and an alliance with China and all that). Perhaps this is caused by my recent loss of faith in mankind which has always been fairly high. Though personally i blame this on my foolishness of reading comment sections of youtube.

The only answer i could currently give would be to not slow down the pace of globalisation but speed it up (if that would be even possible). Smash down all barriers, shake up the world and leave the nationalist in the dust with their head tolling; wondering about what happened to yesterday.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:58 pm

Reject both, and embrace individualism instead.
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The Lone Alliance
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:59 pm

Tybra wrote:This is a question i've been pondering about myself recently Lately i've been confronted with my thoughts becoming more radical, if you can call it that, on particularly the formation of a European state. Foregoing more democratic and liberal approaches to more Bismarckian methods (war with Britain and an alliance with China and all that). Perhaps this is caused by my recent loss of faith in mankind which has always been fairly high. Though personally i blame this on my foolishness of reading comment sections of youtube.

The only answer i could currently give would be to not slow down the pace of globalisation but speed it up (if that would be even possible). Smash down all barriers, shake up the world and leave the nationalist in the dust with their head tolling; wondering about what happened to yesterday.

Nice way to get world War 3 cause the nationalists will take up arms to kill those who do not support their nation.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering
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The Texan Union
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Postby The Texan Union » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:01 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:Reject both, and embrace individualism instead.

A combination between nationalism and individualism would be great.
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The Wolven League
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Postby The Wolven League » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:02 pm

People who are different can never get along well for extended periods of time. Humans naturally distrust difference. An attempt at world government would fall apart in years.

On top of that, I'm damned proud of my country. I neither need nor want to be merged with Chinese Communists and Arabian Islamists.
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The Wolven League
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Postby The Wolven League » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:02 pm

Tybra wrote:This is a question i've been pondering about myself recently Lately i've been confronted with my thoughts becoming more radical, if you can call it that, on particularly the formation of a European state. Foregoing more democratic and liberal approaches to more Bismarckian methods (war with Britain and an alliance with China and all that). Perhaps this is caused by my recent loss of faith in mankind which has always been fairly high. Though personally i blame this on my foolishness of reading comment sections of youtube.

The only answer i could currently give would be to not slow down the pace of globalisation but speed it up (if that would be even possible). Smash down all barriers, shake up the world and leave the nationalist in the dust with their head tolling; wondering about what happened to yesterday.

Have fun with the nuclear war you'd start.
For anyone wondering, I joined this website during my edgy teenage years. I made a lot of dumb, awkward posts, flip-flopped between various extreme ideologies, and just generally embarrassed myself. I denounce a sizable amount of my past posts. I am no longer active on NationStates and this nation/account is no longer used.

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NeoLiberia
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Postby NeoLiberia » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:03 pm

The Texan Union wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:Reject both, and embrace individualism instead.

A combination between nationalism and individualism would be great.

Well except that it doesn't make sense.

Globalism is individualist. It's all about individual rights over arbitrary nationstates and the restrictions they impose.

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The Wolven League
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Postby The Wolven League » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:04 pm

Neoliberia wrote:
The Texan Union wrote:A combination between nationalism and individualism would be great.

Well except that it doesn't make sense.

Globalism is individualist. It's all about individual rights over arbitrary nationstates and the restrictions they impose.

You do realize crony capitalist, multi-nationalist organizations who are interested purely in profits are the driving force behind globalism, don't you?
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NeoLiberia
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Postby NeoLiberia » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:05 pm

The Wolven League wrote:
Neoliberia wrote:Well except that it doesn't make sense.

Globalism is individualist. It's all about individual rights over arbitrary nationstates and the restrictions they impose.

You do realize crony capitalist, multi-nationalist organizations who are interested purely in profits are the driving force behind globalism, don't you?

Yes and I also know that they're all lizards. Duh!

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Erutenia
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Postby Erutenia » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:06 pm

"How do we respond to resurgent nationalism"

Nukes, and a lot of them.
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The Wolven League
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Postby The Wolven League » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:06 pm

Neoliberia wrote:
The Wolven League wrote:You do realize crony capitalist, multi-nationalist organizations who are interested purely in profits are the driving force behind globalism, don't you?

Yes and I also know that they're all lizards. Duh!

Oh, ha-ha.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:09 pm

Neoliberia wrote:
The Wolven League wrote:You do realize crony capitalist, multi-nationalist organizations who are interested purely in profits are the driving force behind globalism, don't you?

Yes and I also know that they're all lizards. Duh!


Not necessarily lizards, but something far more evil: multinational corporations who answer to no one, colluding with governments around the world to make themselves richer.

In order to defeat them, we must reject the agenda of globalism.
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:12 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Neoliberia wrote:Yes and I also know that they're all lizards. Duh!


Not necessarily lizards, but something far more evil: multinational corporations who answer to no one, colluding with governments around the world to make themselves richer.

In order to defeat them, we must reject the agenda of globalism.

Protectionism - openly promising companies gifts in exchange for keeping production inside one's own borders - literally is the government openly colluding with multinational corporations to make themselves richer.
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Erutenia
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Postby Erutenia » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:12 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:In order to defeat them, we must reject the agenda of globalism.

[sarcasm]and nuke mecca[/sarcasm]
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:16 pm

Arkolon wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Not necessarily lizards, but something far more evil: multinational corporations who answer to no one, colluding with governments around the world to make themselves richer.

In order to defeat them, we must reject the agenda of globalism.

Protectionism - openly promising companies gifts in exchange for keeping production inside one's own borders - literally is the government openly colluding with multinational corporations to make themselves richer.


Thankfully, that is not what I advocate.

Multinationals are very much the product of government (or multiple governments) colluding in order to protect their profits. It is no different from the scenario you present, and it is definitely not the answer to nationalism.
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Oil exporting People
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Postby Oil exporting People » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:17 pm

Arkolon wrote:I may be irrationally optimistic here, but I believe that globalisation's setbacks have been blips and not a change of trajectory for the course of history.


Nah, it's pretty well screwed thanks to the coming storm of both 3D printing and eventually Nuclear Fusion, at least for the next several centuries at the least.
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NeoLiberia
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Postby NeoLiberia » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:19 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Neoliberia wrote:Yes and I also know that they're all lizards. Duh!


Not necessarily lizards, but something far more evil: multinational corporations who answer to no one, colluding with governments around the world to make themselves richer.

In order to defeat them, we must reject the agenda of globalism.

So what you're saying is: big government should stop people from exchanging goods across borders because multinational corporations benefit too?

I am disappoint TLT. The notion that libertarianism is just right-wing populism with a sexier face has become increasingly convincing....

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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:21 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Neoliberia wrote:Yes and I also know that they're all lizards. Duh!


Not necessarily lizards, but something far more evil: multinational corporations who answer to no one, colluding with governments around the world to make themselves richer.

In order to defeat them, we must reject the agenda of globalism.

Nationalism will not stop them without nationalizing corporations.
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MERIZoC
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Postby MERIZoC » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:21 pm

Are we speaking of nationalism in the sense of nations, or nation-states?

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Rio Cana
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Postby Rio Cana » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:21 pm

Hydesland wrote:I don't think there's anything that can be done, for now, honestly. Nobody trusts the forecasts of social scientists, seeing is believing: so it would take several years of things getting worse before people decide to embrace globalization again, and if things don't get worse then we may have reached peak globalization for the time being until some new technological transformation comes along.


Not all people/nations want to unembrace globalization. So those that unembrace globalization could be left behind economically by those that still continue to practice globalization.
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NeoLiberia
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Postby NeoLiberia » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:22 pm

MERIZoC wrote:Are we speaking of nationalism in the sense of nations, or nation-states?

Don't the two things reinforce each other?

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