The Berkeley Incident and Free Speech

[I didnt vote for Trump]

At some point people are going to have to wake up and realise that "we didn't invite them, they weren't part of out protest" isn't a bird that's going to keep flying when this occurrence happens again, and again, and again.

What are we supposed to do? Riot back to stop the rioters?

Literally do anything rather than stand by and be complicit in the rioting.

the police are suppose to do their job and arrest them.

That has nothing to do with the fact it seems implied that us saying we didn't invite them won't fly. What else are WE supposed to do, as protesters? Better we disown them then say nothing, but apparently nothing we do is satisfactory.

You want to disown them? Walk away and have your protest somewhere else.

[Seperates]

What are we supposed to do? Riot back to stop the rioters?

Literally do anything rather than stand by and be complicit in the rioting.

You've never actually been a part of a protest, have you?

The only thing you can do in the moment is call the police. Oh wait! The police are already there. So now what? Talk sternly to them? Beat the shit out of them?

Tell me, wondrous and enlightened guru, what do we do then?

[Republic of Canador]

Because a show of force will deter rioters from even attacking in the first place. It's what saved the Koreans from further harm during the LA riots.

(Image)

The L.A. riots were due to the police not having the balls to actually do their goddamn jobs, i.e. go into neighborhoods that they had systematically gotten to oppose them to minimize causalities and property damage, because hey 'it's just the poor people's neighborhoods'.

Rioters are going to riot, regardless. Police are there to minimize the damages, contain, and arrest them. Shows of force only work if you really, truly believe in power of symbolism like a military dictator on the cusp of a toppling regime.

Not really. If you see a store, and want to loot it, but then see a man with a rifle on the rooftop aiming it at you, you're not going to want to loot the store anymore. There's literally video evidence of this happening, with nobody in sight daring to make a move on that store. It has nothing to do with a dictator.


https://youtu.be/IwZpi8sTWz0

[Liriena]

Yeah, why deescalate when you can just escalate things further?

Well, if people are being violent and destructive, and pose a significant risk to the property and safety of others, they should be utterly crushed.

Not doing so puts the responsibility of further harm on the hands of those in charge.

You know, just detaining violent people can work just fine.

[I didnt vote for Trump]

Literally do anything rather than stand by and be complicit in the rioting.

You've never actually been a part of a protest, have you?

I've been to many. I've stopped going because the modern protest is more about pushing boundaries than achieving goals, therefore my time is just as effective spent on the couch. My last march was in 2009, with my partner and for her pay.

The only thing you can do in the moment is call the police. Oh wait! The police are already there. So now what? Talk sternly to them? Beat the shit out of them?

Tell me, wondrous and enlightened guru, what do we do then?

One thing you can do that helps is call out anti-social behaviour in the midst of the protest and allow the police to come and arrest the perpetrators without heckling them or abusing them. Further, when a large number of people surrounding are seen to call out this sort of senselessness, it usually defuses the situation because those doing it will tend to cease to avoid annoying those around them. If the behaviour doesn't stop and/or the police aren't around, try moving away from those responsible and ensuring they outwardly appear to be outsiders. Essentially, do anything but stand by and be complicit

Hope this helps

[Republic of Canador]

Well, if people are being violent and destructive, and pose a significant risk to the property and safety of others, they should be utterly crushed.

Not doing so puts the responsibility of further harm on the hands of those in charge.

You know, just detaining violent people can work just fine.

Read my further responses.

[Seperates]

The L.A. riots were due to the police not having the balls to actually do their goddamn jobs, i.e. go into neighborhoods that they had systematically gotten to oppose them to minimize causalities and property damage, because hey 'it's just the poor people's neighborhoods'.

Rioters are going to riot, regardless. Police are there to minimize the damages, contain, and arrest them. Shows of force only work if you really, truly believe in power of symbolism like a military dictator on the cusp of a toppling regime.

Not really. If you see a store, and want to loot it, but then see a man with a rifle on the rooftop aiming it at you, you're not going to want to loot the store anymore. There's literally video evidence of this happening, with nobody in sight daring to make a move on that store. It has nothing to do with a dictator.


https://youtu.be/IwZpi8sTWz0

So you want the citizens to make a show of force? I can accept that. After all, it is not their job to contain the rioting, only to defend themselves.

[Kaiserholt]

Literally do anything rather than stand by and be complicit in the rioting.

You've never actually been a part of a protest, have you?

The only thing you can do in the moment is call the police. Oh wait! The police are already there. So now what? Talk sternly to them? Beat the shit out of them?

Tell me, wondrous and enlightened guru, what do we do then?

Since many of the protestors likely already knew the rioters, whether they admit to it or not, what should have been done is best left to before the protests. ie, telling your friends "on your own head be it." And hopefully the average protestor does not pretend that the rioters are not very likely to be fellow alumni.

"On Your Own Head Be It"

[Liriena]

You've never actually been a part of a protest, have you?

The only thing you can do in the moment is call the police. Oh wait! The police are already there. So now what? Talk sternly to them? Beat the shit out of them?

Tell me, wondrous and enlightened guru, what do we do then?

Since many of the protestors likely already knew the rioters, whether they admit to it or not, what should have been done is best left to before the protests. ie, telling your friends "on your own head be it." And hopefully the average protestor does not pretend that the rioters are not very likely to be fellow alumni.

"On Your Own Head Be It"

"Likely"

So you're speculating.

[Seperates]

You've never actually been a part of a protest, have you?

I've been to many. I've stopped going because the modern protest is more about pushing boundaries than achieving goals, therefore my time is just as effective spent on the couch. My last march was in 2009, with my partner and for her pay.

The only thing you can do in the moment is call the police. Oh wait! The police are already there. So now what? Talk sternly to them? Beat the shit out of them?

Tell me, wondrous and enlightened guru, what do we do then?

One thing you can do that helps is call out anti-social behaviour in the midst of the protest and allow the police to come and arrest the perpetrators without heckling them or abusing them. Further, when a large number of people surrounding are seen to call out this sort of senselessness, it usually defuses the situation because those doing it will tend to cease to avoid annoying those around them. If the behaviour doesn't stop and/or the police aren't around, try moving away from those responsible and ensuring they outwardly appear to be outsiders. Essentially, do anything but stand by and be complicit

Hope this helps

I agree with you.

Recently I've been having problems where most of the people want to see the boundaries pushed, as you said. The protests are not well organized at all, so there is really no way to just 'get up and move'. You might as well just leave the protest. There is no real group of faction leaders that keep the whole mess civil. And how can they look like outsiders when everyone surrounds them with their phones?

I don't know. The latest protests seems to be about obstructing the police and yelling in their face about how they are bacon, more than anything substantial. I know that I was never a part of golden age of civil unrest, but much of this just seems childish...

Anyways, apologies for being abit of a twat.

[Republic of Canador]

Not really. If you see a store, and want to loot it, but then see a man with a rifle on the rooftop aiming it at you, you're not going to want to loot the store anymore. There's literally video evidence of this happening, with nobody in sight daring to make a move on that store. It has nothing to do with a dictator.


https://youtu.be/IwZpi8sTWz0

So you want the citizens to make a show of force? I can accept that. After all, it is not their job to contain the rioting, only to defend themselves.

Yes. Even if they are just displaying their firearm openly to scare away any potential looter. Just something to get the message that "we are armed, and we won't tolerate your illegal actions" across.

[Seperates]

So you want the citizens to make a show of force? I can accept that. After all, it is not their job to contain the rioting, only to defend themselves.

Yes. Even if they are just displaying their firearm openly to scare away any potential looter. Just something to get the message that "we are armed, and we won't tolerate your illegal actions" across.

I am fine with citizens having a show of force. When the police engage in it, it is all just silly. Nothing provokes a teenager to misbehave like trying to piss off their parents.

[Cultural Hegemony]

Except this was a riot, not a protest.

And this invalidates the principle how?

It plays into Yiannopoulos' hand? Couldn't possibly be more hook-line-sinker?

Protest is one rhing. But as soon as sh*t started catching on fire, it's free publicity for the alt-right's "violent suppression of the white minority" nonsense. Only now with full-color pictures on every front/home page.

Good job kiddos.

[Cultural Hegemony]

I do also have to wonder. If this was an Islamist preaching hate against America, would everyone still be defending their right to free speech so slavishly?

People of principle would, yes (and not only because "hate" is a classic anti-speech weasel word).

However, this is irrelevant to the Berkeley incident, as the smart money knows Yiannopoulos never intended to give a speech. He intended to get full-color front page photos of the tolerant left setting sh*t on fire.

Hook, line, sinker.

[Hexgard]

As they say, if you hinder someone from speaking their mind because you disagree with them, you don't believe in free speech in the first place.

It is all fine to show your dislike, to hold banners, to stage protests, but to physically hinder someone to voice themselves is bad. You can't shout down people, you can't form barricades to stop them from moving.

All of you say: "There is jut a violent minority", but I see it more and more often that some violent thugs go to beat someone who is pro-Trump or so, spray them in the eyes, steal their things, but I have never, ever seen someone from the peaceful protesters going in to stop a violent protester from doing it, no one ever says "Wait, stop, we respect everyone we came here to voice ourselves" or such stuff.

[Vassenor]

I do also have to wonder. If this was an Islamist preaching hate against America, would everyone still be defending their right to free speech so slavishly?

People of principle would, yes (and not only because "hate" is a classic anti-speech weasel word).

However, this is irrelevant to the Berkeley incident, as the smart money knows Yiannopoulos never intended to give a speech. He intended to get full-color front page photos of the tolerant left setting sh*t on fire.

Hook, line, sinker.

So do you think it's possible that the agitators might have been drawn from his supporters?

[Patridam]

Rioters are going to riot, regardless. Police are there to minimize the damages, contain, and arrest them. Shows of force only work if you really, truly believe in power of symbolism like a military dictator on the cusp of a toppling regime.

So... anyone who believes in the power of symbolism is a military dictator about to fail? My English teachers back through middle school all have some explaining to do, they were in love with symbolism.

[Hexgard]

Ah, the irritating face of far left terrorism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPrRLyFTzSU

It's funny to see the left again racing to become the west's greatest problem again.

[Bakery Hill]

Ah, the irritating face of far left terrorism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPrRLyFTzSU

It's funny to see the left again racing to become the west's greatest problem again.

Shoot up as money schools and malls and mosques as you want, but if a communist sets a bin on fire he's a fucking terrorist.

[Herskerstad]

People of principle would, yes (and not only because "hate" is a classic anti-speech weasel word).

However, this is irrelevant to the Berkeley incident, as the smart money knows Yiannopoulos never intended to give a speech. He intended to get full-color front page photos of the tolerant left setting sh*t on fire.

Hook, line, sinker.

So do you think it's possible that the agitators might have been drawn from his supporters?

Highly unlikely given that it was a violent element which inspired risk. In false flag instances it tend to be far more symbolic than in the crowd notions so to speak, nor do I think Milo himself inspires the same sort of zeal as say . . . revolutionary communism. Generally, false flag instances tend to have some smoke around them. A person in a conservative crowd with a sign that says "God hates taxes." might be an obvious culture zapping, had an abortion clinic been bombed and spraypainted on it saying "Vote Hillary" then that would most likely be a false flag as well.

In this instance it seems fairly straight forward. Students and the black bloc really don't like countercultural statements so they shut it down. The methods employed however ranged from legal to highly illegal.

When it comes to Milo, there's nothing else to say that he got what he wanted. Instead of speaking to thousands these protesters and illiberal students made sure he gained millions.

[The Emerald Legion]

Your right to free speech protects you from the government. Just because you want to spew crap, nobody has to listen, or let you have a place to say it.

And your right to freedom of assembly only includes peaceable assembly. One person fucks that up and the assembly is over.

Besides your argument only works if the people objecting own the place. They clearly don't.

[Hexgard]

Ah, the irritating face of far left terrorism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPrRLyFTzSU

It's funny to see the left again racing to become the west's greatest problem again.

Shoot up as money schools and malls and mosques as you want, but if a communist sets a bin on fire he's a fucking terrorist.

Seems you need more straw, given that you wasted much of it on this strawman right here.
But be it as it may, here you go:

Terrorism (noun) - the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

It is not just "communist set bins on fire", it's the far left destroying and stealing property, beating people, obstructing people, spraying them with pepper spray, threatening, making lists, shouting down and marginalizing those they do not like.
And no, no one said that such shootings ain't acts or terror, but the main focus should always be on organised terror, you know, where it isn't just one or two clinically insane guys shooting things up, but a hydra with many heads.

Also, if you could go on without swearing, yeah, that would be nice.

[Wallenburg]

Your right to free speech protects you from the government. Just because you want to spew crap, nobody has to listen, or let you have a place to say it.

And your right to freedom of assembly only includes peaceable assembly. One person fucks that up and the assembly is over.

Besides your argument only works if the people objecting own the place. They clearly don't.

Tell that to Trump, who doesn't understand that Berkeley students don't own and run the campus.

[Liriena]

Ah, the irritating face of far left terrorism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPrRLyFTzSU

It's funny to see the left again racing to become the west's greatest problem again.

Shoot up as money schools and malls and mosques as you want, but if a communist sets a bin on fire he's a fucking terrorist.

Consistency is for cucks.

[Hexgard]

Shoot up as money schools and malls and mosques as you want, but if a communist sets a bin on fire he's a fucking terrorist.

Consistency is for cucks.

My my, seems the poster above got the straw he lacked earlier for his mega strawman. Great job