The Berkeley Incident and Free Speech

[Aelex]

Are you completely unaware of the political and cultural climate of the early 20th century? War was seen as glorious; there was no negative stigma attached to it that exists today. It was almost as if it were a mere game being played by national leaders and aristocrats.

Because of this, there was effectively little rational thinking when it came to nations who sought the pride that war would bring. The war was never expected to last beyond Christmas of 1914. You can't blame Germany's willingness to fight a war with its ally Austria Hungary anymore than you can blame the Russians' inevitable defense of Serbia, and France's eventual defense of Russia. The entire alliance system was built towards inevitable war; it was just Germany that was the initial cause, but certainly not the only nation to blame.

Go read back my previous posts about how and why Germany was the main cause of WW1 and then come back. :^)

[The Texan Union]

I kinda stopped reading this thread: Let me guess, it has been a redundant thread that goes nowhere for 30 pages?

It was basically this:

1) Someone said something about riots sucking, but Milo should still be silenced.
2) They were explained that silencing people is both un-American and morally wrong.
3) They shifted focus to Milo being racist and inciting harassment.
4) They were explained that he was not racist and did not incite harassment.
5) Then they continued to defend silencing people because of dangerous opinions. They will most likely never change their opinion and remain advocates of subverting freedom of speech.

Or that's my experience, at least.

[Elwher]

And that, Kids, is why the Allies during WWII were no better than those who carried out the Holocaust...

Well no, the Nazis started a war of Imperialism, shattering the fragile peace of the world, and launched a genocide killing at a minimum of 6 million people, while the Allies....fought a war. With surprisingly few warcrimes, I'll add

The lack of war crimes by the Allies is not surprising...they won and got to define what a war crime was. For example, when the German navy started unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic it was a war crime, when we did the same in the Pacific against the Japanese it was grand strategy. The bombing of London was a crime against civilian populations, the bombing of Dresden was good tactics. German and Japanese concentration camps were criminal, US ones were a regrettable incident.

[The Texan Union]

Are you completely unaware of the political and cultural climate of the early 20th century? War was seen as glorious; there was no negative stigma attached to it that exists today. It was almost as if it were a mere game being played by national leaders and aristocrats.

Because of this, there was effectively little rational thinking when it came to nations who sought the pride that war would bring. The war was never expected to last beyond Christmas of 1914. You can't blame Germany's willingness to fight a war with its ally Austria Hungary anymore than you can blame the Russians' inevitable defense of Serbia, and France's eventual defense of Russia. The entire alliance system was built towards inevitable war; it was just Germany that was the initial cause, but certainly not the only nation to blame.

Go read back my previous posts about how and why Germany was the main cause of WW1 and then come back. :^)

I get the impression that you hate Germany and as such can not be persuaded.

[Balkenreich]

Are you completely unaware of the political and cultural climate of the early 20th century? War was seen as glorious; there was no negative stigma attached to it that exists today. It was almost as if it were a mere game being played by national leaders and aristocrats.

Because of this, there was effectively little rational thinking when it came to nations who sought the pride that war would bring. The war was never expected to last beyond Christmas of 1914. You can't blame Germany's willingness to fight a war with its ally Austria Hungary anymore than you can blame the Russians' inevitable defense of Serbia, and France's eventual defense of Russia. The entire alliance system was built towards inevitable war; it was just Germany that was the initial cause, but certainly not the only nation to blame.

Go read back my previous posts about how and why Germany was the main cause of WW1 and then come back. :^)

[HUMS FRENCH ANTHEM AS GERMANS CHARGE]

[Aelex]

I get the impression that you hate Germany and as such can not be persuaded.

I get the impression that you idolater Germany and as such refuse to accept historical facts.

[Kaiserholt]

I think one of the leading problems with what both the protestors and the rioters are doing is that they are forgetting a very apt phrase..."On Your Own Head Be It." You can protest, or you can riot, or whatever...know that if what you do comes into the public conscience, you are ultimately the people who have to answer for the results of your own actions. Someone in your life...faculty, fellow students, family...should have at some point pulled you aside and advised you that what you do might not be wise. That there is a better way to go about this sort of thing. And even if you still go through with it, one must acknowledge that as a protestor, you are choosing to let folks like the rioters add their two cents to the conversation.

Ultimately, the participants in both protest and riot will be held responsible for what the shut down of a duly-authorized talk on a public campus does to the wider discussion. Politically speaking, the 2018 mid-terms are not too far off. And it is not wise to presume that the voting public won't remember this incident...or what it says about the participants.

On Your Own Head Be It

[Aelex]

[HUMS FRENCH ANTHEM AS GERMANS CHARGE]

FELDGRAU IS FOR COWARDS, TRUE MEN WEAR RED PANTS!!!

[Balkenreich]

[HUMS FRENCH ANTHEM AS GERMANS CHARGE]

FELDGRAU IS FOR COWARDS, TRUE MEN WEAR RED PANTS!!!

Wi!

[The Eternal Holy Swedish Empire]

Liberals protesting against a homosexual immigrant because he doesn't agree with their views and is conservative. ....There's a beautiful irony there. In any case I think the way the whole "protest" if it can be called that and not a riot was carried out in the wrong way, especially since it ended up with public property being damaged. Everyone of whom was involved in it needs to be charged with at least minor charges including destruction of public property, there's no way that the way this was carried out should ever be acceptable. If you want to protest and call it a peaceful protest then do it properly then and don't damage public property.

[Imperializt Russia]

Since when did "Black Bloc" become a movement?

It's just a term for dressing in black, concealing your identity, and having a riot.
I hadn't even heard the term before this incident, and thought it was some kind of Black Panther rival from the headlines even HuffPo were writing.

Doesnt change the fact that they are Anarchkiddie twats that cant go a week or so without spazzing out and tearing down a street lamp or two.

im also interested in the large surplus of black clothing, could mean that at one point, members were also part of the either "goth" or the more cringey "emo" subculture.

Which is hilarious.

...
Black's just a very common colour of clothing, Balk.

[Republic of Canador]

And that, Kids, is why the Allies during WWII were no better than those who carried out the Holocaust...

Well no, the Nazis started a war of Imperialism, shattering the fragile peace of the world, and launched a genocide killing at a minimum of 6 million people, while the Allies....fought a war. With surprisingly few warcrimes, I'll add

Nazi "Imperialism" continued as a joint agreement with the Soviet Union for both countries to expand their own borders into Poland. The USSR was also engaging in an invasion of Finland. Germany was not alone in this aspect. The world wasn't at peace, unless you ignore the Japanese conquests in China and the Pacific and the Winter War.

Also, the allies, particularly the Soviets, completely hid their war crimes and acted as if they weren't their own responsibility. The Soviets blamed the Katyn Massacre on the Nazis during the Nuremberg trials, and didn't admit that it was their own wrong doing until 1990. Not to mention the 2 million German women raped by Soviet troops, which to this day is being downplayed by some Russian historians.

[Balkenreich]

Doesnt change the fact that they are Anarchkiddie twats that cant go a week or so without spazzing out and tearing down a street lamp or two.

im also interested in the large surplus of black clothing, could mean that at one point, members were also part of the either "goth" or the more cringey "emo" subculture.

Which is hilarious.

...
Black's just a very common colour of clothing, Balk.

Does nothing to ease my imagining of them as overly emotional brats that need ankle monitors once they're caught.

[The Princes of the Universe]

The mindless destruction was a piss-poor choice and didn't help anyone, but neo-Nazis have no place whatsoever in the public sphere.

[The Texan Union]

I get the impression that you hate Germany and as such can not be persuaded.

I get the impression that you idolater Germany and as such refuse to accept historical facts.

No. I don't really care about Germany any more than other European countries. And I'm not ignoring any facts.

Germany was not solely responsible for WWI and doesn't deserve what you described. It's that simple.

[The Texan Union]

I think one of the leading problems with what both the protestors and the rioters are doing is that they are forgetting a very apt phrase..."On Your Own Head Be It." You can protest, or you can riot, or whatever...know that if what you do comes into the public conscience, you are ultimately the people who have to answer for the results of your own actions. Someone in your life...faculty, fellow students, family...should have at some point pulled you aside and advised you that what you do might not be wise. That there is a better way to go about this sort of thing. And even if you still go through with it, one must acknowledge that as a protestor, you are choosing to let folks like the rioters add their two cents to the conversation.

Ultimately, the participants in both protest and riot will be held responsible for what the shut down of a duly-authorized talk on a public campus does to the wider discussion. Politically speaking, the 2018 mid-terms are not too far off. And it is not wise to presume that the voting public won't remember this incident...or what it says about the participants.

On Your Own Head Be It

I agree with this.

[The Texan Union]

The mindless destruction was a piss-poor choice and didn't help anyone, but neo-Nazis have no place whatsoever in the public sphere.

Milo isn't a Neo-Nazi, but you're wrong anyway. Every one has a place in the public sphere, regardless of how sucky they are.

[The Princes of the Universe]

The mindless destruction was a piss-poor choice and didn't help anyone, but neo-Nazis have no place whatsoever in the public sphere.

Milo isn't a Neo-Nazi, but you're wrong anyway. Every one has a place in the public sphere, regardless of how sucky they are.

Alt-right is nothing but PC-speak for neo-Nazi.

[The Texan Union]

Milo isn't a Neo-Nazi, but you're wrong anyway. Every one has a place in the public sphere, regardless of how sucky they are.

Alt-right is nothing but PC-speak for neo-Nazi.

The majority of people in the Alt-Right hate Milo. He is not a member of it, even if he claims to be. He's a gay Jew. Gay Jews cannot be Neo-Nazis.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I am increasingly disappointed in the lack of understanding on the parts of many that protesting does not mean rioting, nor does it mean destruction of property, private or otherwise. Protesting, I can support even if I don't happen to agree with the stance. Wanton destruction, regardless of who is doing it, or what color or political side they happen to be on, I cannot and will not support. I will go so far as to support the fining, temporary incarceration, and legal punishment within reasonable bounds of the law for anyone caught doing it - again, regardless of who they are, or think they are.

It is far too easy to get caught up in the mob fervor and excitement, and even usually smart, well-behaved, civil individuals can give in to the temptation to cut loose and really let everyone know just how upset one is about something. Sorry, but the phrase 'free speech' and all simply does not cover this sort of thing, nor should it. One's rights, such as they are, end where the rights of others begin - endangering others or destroying the property of others with one's 'protest' is not a conducive way forward in spreading one's message. Small wonder so many have turned to a more authoritarian spin, when we have had so much lawlessness go on, and seemingly without so much as a slap on the wrist. (Not that I'm all that thrilled about how that's turned out, mind. Simple observation of a likely cause.)

[Corrian]

I kinda stopped reading this thread: Let me guess, it has been a redundant thread that goes nowhere for 30 pages?

It was basically this:

1) Someone said something about riots sucking, but Milo should still be silenced.
2) They were explained that silencing people is both un-American and morally wrong.
3) They shifted focus to Milo being racist and inciting harassment.
4) They were explained that he was not racist and did not incite harassment.
5) Then they continued to defend silencing people because of dangerous opinions. They will most likely never change their opinion and remain advocates of subverting freedom of speech.

Or that's my experience, at least.

So pretty much what I said, and I'd likely be on THEIR side of the redundancy, but decided it was a waste of time because that's what these threads usually turn into.

[Arumbia67]

Two simple ways to handle future incidents like this. Any university that allows the restriction of free speech will be threatened with a loss of funds. Secondly, form a circle around any rioters with police cars and riot officers. Then give them 15 seconds to stop acting like spoiled toddlers. If they won't, start in with the tear gas. Then slowly push in and use SALT handguns to bring down any stragglers. Boom problem solved.

[Corrian]

Two simple ways to handle future incidents like this. Any university that allows the restriction of free speech will be threatened with a loss of funds. Secondly, form a circle around any rioters with police cars and riot officers. Then give them 15 seconds to stop acting like spoiled toddlers. If they won't, start in with the tear gas. Then slowly push in and use SALT handguns to bring down any stragglers. Boom problem solved.

1.Universities have a right to not want their venue to be used to spout hate and harassment. Because, you know, they have this thing called their own form of free speech to say they don't want them speaking there. And it's not like these universities are restricting them. He's spoken at multiple universities after all. They just always end badly so they have to cancel.
2.That totally doesn't sound like it'd end in long term consequences. Though I can't say I'm against them getting arrested.

[Vassenor]

Two simple ways to handle future incidents like this. Any university that allows the restriction of free speech will be threatened with a loss of funds. Secondly, form a circle around any rioters with police cars and riot officers. Then give them 15 seconds to stop acting like spoiled toddlers. If they won't, start in with the tear gas. Then slowly push in and use SALT handguns to bring down any stragglers. Boom problem solved.

1.Universities have a right to not want their venue to be used to spout hate and harassment. Because, you know, they have this thing called their own form of free speech to say they don't want them speaking there. And it's not like these universities are restricting them. He's spoken at multiple universities after all. They just always end badly so they have to cancel.
2.That totally doesn't sound like it'd end in long term consequences. Though I can't say I'm against them getting arrested.

And then it ends with another Kent State.

[Imperializt Russia]

Alt-right is nothing but PC-speak for neo-Nazi.

The majority of people in the Alt-Right hate Milo. He is not a member of it, even if he claims to be. He's a gay Jew. Gay Jews cannot be Neo-Nazis.

There were Jews who were quite actively disappointed in their Jewish ethnicity resulting in their dismissal from the Army.
Well into WWII.

There was one Jewish member of the SS, though he joined in a "last place they'll look" mindset, to avoid detection.