The Berkeley Incident and Free Speech

[Proctopeo]

If you assault a Nazi who's not currently being violent, you lose the moral high ground to the Nazi. Something more effective - and more legal - is to explain to others why they are wrong. This helps just in case they do become violent, and limits the amount of future Nazis. Punching them just generates lots of schadenfreude, which, while good, can be generated in legal ways.

The problem is, these Nazis don't believe they are wrong, and only a tiny fraction will ever admit to being wrong, either on confronting something or many years later.

They can't be reasoned with. It's too polarised. This issue is pervasive in more mainstream politics as well, as both sides seem to have pandered to the extremes of their base, for some reason.

I never said that you should explain to them, I said to explain to others. It's more effective to ensure that there will be fewer Nazis in the future.

[Imperializt Russia]

Seeing as the Allies effectively caused the Holocaust by being total dicks after WWI, I guess they're really not much better.

>Tfw when people actually buy into Versailles being a "mean" treaty
Fucking pls.

It literally gave rise to Hitler.

Shall we not forget the time that France was a little pissy that its reparations payments were behind because, newsflash, postwar Germany was poor as shit and experiencing hyperinflation, then invaded one of the German border industrial regions to "take back" those reparations in material goods? And shot a bunch of German citizens in the process?

[Sovranita]

Milo is a right-wing religious Catholic, but he is also a gay ethnic Jew who is into black men. Clearly not a nazi, but even if he was, he has the right to free speech and they were in no way justified to stop him from speaking.

[Aelex]

The Germans also had to revoke control of their colonies, their military was restricted to 100,000 men, they lost 25,000 square-miles of land, 7 million citizens, as well as the gains made in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, AND they had to grant independence to multiple protectorates.

All because they honoured their alliance with Austria, which is basically what everyone had done. Germany, who was forced to take full responsibility of the war, was really no different than any of the Allies.

That's just not fair.

Literally all the bolded fall into : "only ha[ving] to hand back core provinces of other nations as well as the few colonies they had and repay less than the damages they caused on the western front alone" and the Italic is quite clement when you compare it to the actual military occupation they faced after WW2.

Anyway, I would agree with you to say it wasn't fair. Indeed, it was way too lenient of a fate for the Germany who both indirectly, by its thief of Alsace-Lorraine that ensured that there could be no peace between two of the Greatest powers of Europe and by its organisation of the system of "blocs" that never existed to such an extent in Europe before, and very directly, by its bullying attitude and overtly aggressive stance both before and during the crisis, was the almost sole cause of WW1 happening in the first place.

If anything, Germany should have been crushed completely like it was originally planned with the Rhineland annexed or set up as a protectorate, Bavaria liberated and various other small states propped up everywhere completed with a military occupation of the land until reparations were paid.
That, is the punishment Germany deserved for its crimes.

[Imperializt Russia]

Fucking what.

[Diopolis]

Your right to free speech protects you from the government. Just because you want to spew crap, nobody has to listen, or let you have a place to say it.

Free speech also protects you from violence from other people.
I don't like milo. I don't agree with a lot of what he has to say, he promotes degenerate lifestyles by example, and he's ideologically bankrupt and hypocritical. But disagreeing with someone is not grounds for a riot.

[Gauthier]

Another irony is people likely to have laughed and mocked the meme that supposedly had Justin Trudeau saying "If you kill your enemies they win" suddenly concerned that punching Neo-Nazis means the Neo-Nazis win.

[The Texan Union]

The Germans also had to revoke control of their colonies, their military was restricted to 100,000 men, they lost 25,000 square-miles of land, 7 million citizens, as well as the gains made in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, AND they had to grant independence to multiple protectorates.

All because they honoured their alliance with Austria, which is basically what everyone had done. Germany, who was forced to take full responsibility of the war, was really no different than any of the Allies.

That's just not fair.

Literally all the bolded fall into : "only ha[ving] to hand back core provinces of other nations as well as the few colonies they had and repay less than the damages they caused on the western front alone" and the Italic is quite clement when you compare it to the actual military occupation they faced after WW2.

Anyway, I would agree with you to say it wasn't fair. Indeed, it was way too lenient of a fate for the Germany who both indirectly, by its thief of Alsace-Lorraine that ensured that there could be no peace between two of the Greatest powers of Europe and by its organisation of the system of "blocs" that never existed to such an extent in Europe before, and very directly, by its bullying attitude and overtly aggressive stance both before and during the crisis, was the almost sole cause of WW1 happening in the first place.

If anything, Germany should have been crushed completely like it was originally planned with the Rhineland annexed or set up as a protectorate, Bavaria liberated and various other small states propped up everywhere completed with a military occupation of the land until reparations were paid.
That, is the punishment Germany deserved for its crimes.

That's ridiculous.

The war was caused by the Austrian invasion of Serbia. Germany honored their alliance with Austria. That was all they did in WWI. The Treaty of Versailles was about WWI. The Allies let everything you just mentioned get in the way of a fair treaty. The Germans were pissed, Hitler channeled that, and a bunch of innocent people payed for it.

[Proctopeo]

Another irony is people likely to have laughed and mocked the meme that supposedly had Justin Trudeau saying "If you kill you enemies they win" suddenly concerned that punching Neo-Nazis means the Neo-Nazis win.

I feel as if I don't have to explain why those two aren't the same, but I know that I will have to anyway. The short answer? Nuance.

[The Texan Union]

Another irony is people likely to have laughed and mocked the meme that supposedly had Justin Trudeau saying "If you kill your enemies they win" suddenly concerned that punching Neo-Nazis means the Neo-Nazis win.

If you kill your enemies, then they can't win.

If you let them live, they can.

Basically, if you're going to punch a Neo-Nazi then you better kill all Neo-Nazis or you lose.

[Aelex]

That's ridiculous.

The war was caused by the Austrian invasion of Serbia. Germany honored their alliance with Austria. That was all they did in WWI. The Treaty of Versailles was about WWI. The Allies let everything you just mentioned get in the way of a fair treaty. The Germans were pissed, Hitler channeled that, and a bunch of innocent people payed for it.

The war itself was caused by Germany's actions and behavior. The assassination of François-Ferdinand might have been the spark that set everything ablaze but it was the Germans who piled up the powder. Don't forget that without their blank check on supporting them, Austria would never have dared to impose such unacceptables terms on Serbia.

Germany got less than it deserved for the role it played in causing the war. Saying that Versailles was anything but a tame punishment is what is absolutely ridiculous.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

This should be renamed:

Goodwins law: the thread

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

That's ridiculous.

The war was caused by the Austrian invasion of Serbia. Germany honored their alliance with Austria. That was all they did in WWI. The Treaty of Versailles was about WWI. The Allies let everything you just mentioned get in the way of a fair treaty. The Germans were pissed, Hitler channeled that, and a bunch of innocent people payed for it.

The war itself was caused by Germany's actions and behavior. The assassination of François-Ferdinand might have been the spark that set everything ablaze but it was the Germans who piled up the powder. Don't forget that without their blank check on supporting them, Austria would never have dared to impose such unacceptables terms on Serbia.

Germany got less than it deserved for the role it played in causing the war. Saying that Versailles was anything but a tame punishment is what is absolutely ridiculous.

What?

You know it was more the Germany right? It was the toxic environment of Europe and nationalism that everyone was doing at the time.

Germany should have been punished yes, but not accept the brunt of the blame.

[Imperializt Russia]

That's ridiculous.

The war was caused by the Austrian invasion of Serbia. Germany honored their alliance with Austria. That was all they did in WWI. The Treaty of Versailles was about WWI. The Allies let everything you just mentioned get in the way of a fair treaty. The Germans were pissed, Hitler channeled that, and a bunch of innocent people payed for it.

The war itself was caused by Germany's actions and behavior. The assassination of François-Ferdinand might have been the spark that set everything ablaze but it was the Germans who piled up the powder. Don't forget that without their blank check on supporting them, Austria would never have dared to impose such unacceptables terms on Serbia.

Germany got less than it deserved for the role it played in causing the war. Saying that Versailles was anything but a tame punishment is what is absolutely ridiculous.

Germany did supposedly issue a "blank check" as it were, banking on the Austrians actually getting the shit on with it and doing that whole invading thing. But they didn't, they dithered and mithered and the Germans came back a month later asking what the shit they were playing at, and that they should probably not bother as the European sympathies would be against each other.

Austria did impose deliberately unfair terms on Serbia, but the Serbs sent a response saying that they would submit the disagreement on the intentionally-fraught last point to a conference at the "Concert of Europe".

Despite pleas in both directions between the German and Russian monarchs (cousins to each other), both sides felt they couldn't stop mobilising, as stopping mobilising if their opponent didn't would lead them to lose.
The European system was to blame for WWI, and it's to blame for WWII as well, with the Treaty of Versailles pretty much directly putting Hitler in office.

[Kaiserholt]

This should be renamed:

Goodwins law: the thread

Well, to be quite honest, as OP I did quote Noam Chomsky. I guess since Godwin has yet to form a Chomsky Corollary Hitler references will just have to do.

[Aelex]

What?

You know it was more the Germany right? It was the toxic environment of Europe and nationalism that everyone was doing at the time.

Germany should have been punished yes, but not accept the brunt of the blame.

It was more than Germany but it was mainly Germany. She created the context by its thief of Alsace-Lorraine that made sure that there could be no peace between Germany and France, she created the system of Alliance that essentialy formed "blocs" that made sure that any war would bring half of the world into the shit-show, she made sure to league people against her by her over-aggressive diplomacy and she also caused a sentiment of "impeding doom" by her constant sabre-rattling that made any attempt to resolve crisis peacefully sounds impossible.

The brunt of the blame is definitely on Germany and Germany alone and there is no way to get around this fact. Blaming it on "everyone" is both wrong and rather stupid.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

What?

You know it was more the Germany right? It was the toxic environment of Europe and nationalism that everyone was doing at the time.

Germany should have been punished yes, but not accept the brunt of the blame.

It was more than Germany but it was mainly Germany. She created the context by its thief of Alsace-Lorraine that made sure that there could be no peace between Germany and France, she created the system of Alliance that essentialy formed "blocs" that made sure that any war would bring half of the world into the shit-show, she made sure to league people against her by her over-aggressive diplomacy and she also caused a sentiment of "impeding doom" by her constant sabre-rattling that made any attempt to resolve crisis peacefully sounds impossible.

The brunt of the blame is definitely on Germany and Germany alone and there is no way to get around this fact. Blaming it on "everyone" is both wrong and rather stupid.

Germany didn't start the the fire and only just acted like everyone else did. If they didn't create the "blocs" someone else would.

They acted out of nationalism like everyone else.

[Corrian]

I kinda stopped reading this thread: Let me guess, it has been a redundant thread that goes nowhere for 30 pages?

[Kaiserholt]

I kinda stopped reading this thread: Let me guess, it has been a redundant thread that goes nowhere for 30 pages?

Debate by consensus. The repliers propose that the topic be shifted from Free Speech to the Versailles Treaty, and a consensus is reached.

[Aelex]

Germany didn't start the the fire and only just acted like everyone else did. If they didn't create the "blocs" someone else would.

They acted out of nationalism like everyone else.

I don't care about alternate realities so I give absolutely no shit whether "someone else would have done it".
It's a fact that in our own reality, Germany did it and was for that reason among others the main cause of WW1.

Your attempt at somehow trying to blame it on "Nationalism" seems simply like a cheap way to get away from facts you don't like and to blame it on an ideology you do even less despite said ideology actually not playing a major role.

[Balkenreich]

So Milo is demanding an apology from the Berkeley mayor for daring to call him a White Nationalist and thus hurt his feelings.

Because apparently demanding political correctness is OK when he does it.

im surprised the Berkeley mayor still has a job considering black bloc decided to act like fucking animals the city.

[Imperializt Russia]

So Milo is demanding an apology from the Berkeley mayor for daring to call him a White Nationalist and thus hurt his feelings.

Because apparently demanding political correctness is OK when he does it.

im surprised the Berkeley mayor still has a job considering black bloc decided to act like fucking animals the city.

Since when did "Black Bloc" become a movement?

It's just a term for dressing in black, concealing your identity, and having a riot.
I hadn't even heard the term before this incident, and thought it was some kind of Black Panther rival from the headlines even HuffPo were writing.

[Republic of Canador]

Germany didn't start the the fire and only just acted like everyone else did. If they didn't create the "blocs" someone else would.

They acted out of nationalism like everyone else.

I don't care about alternate realities so I give absolutely no shit whether "someone else would have done it".
It's a fact that in our own reality, Germany did it and was for that reason among others the main cause of WW1.

Your attempt at somehow trying to blame it on "Nationalism" seems simply like a cheap way to get away from facts you don't like and to blame it on an ideology you do even less despite said ideology actually not playing a major role.

Are you completely unaware of the political and cultural climate of the early 20th century? War was seen as glorious; there was no negative stigma attached to it that exists today. It was almost as if it were a mere game being played by national leaders and aristocrats.

Because of this, there was effectively little rational thinking when it came to nations who sought the pride that war would bring. The war was never expected to last beyond Christmas of 1914. You can't blame Germany's willingness to fight a war with its ally Austria Hungary anymore than you can blame the Russians' inevitable defense of Serbia, and France's eventual defense of Russia. The entire alliance system was built towards inevitable war; it was just Germany that was the initial cause, but certainly not the only nation to blame.

[Gauthier]

im surprised the Berkeley mayor still has a job considering black bloc decided to act like fucking animals the city.

Since when did "Black Bloc" become a movement?

It's just a term for dressing in black, concealing your identity, and having a riot.
I hadn't even heard the term before this incident, and thought it was some kind of Black Panther rival from the headlines even HuffPo were writing.

Anarchist shitbaggers who come to any public event uninvited just like the WBC except they wreck everything hoping it'll make the government fall apart and who gives a fuck if they damage the reputation of whatever groups whose event they crashed?

[Balkenreich]

im surprised the Berkeley mayor still has a job considering black bloc decided to act like fucking animals the city.

Since when did "Black Bloc" become a movement?

It's just a term for dressing in black, concealing your identity, and having a riot.
I hadn't even heard the term before this incident, and thought it was some kind of Black Panther rival from the headlines even HuffPo were writing.

Doesnt change the fact that they are Anarchkiddie twats that cant go a week or so without spazzing out and tearing down a street lamp or two.

im also interested in the large surplus of black clothing, could mean that at one point, members were also part of the either "goth" or the more cringey "emo" subculture.

Which is hilarious.