The Berkeley Incident and Free Speech

[Hyggemata]

They are not "entitled" to protection. The government enacts a policy to protect them, but they are not "entitled" to it. If you have an issue with this, take it up with the government, which you elected. If you can't live with the government that you elected for a single second, you should consider emigration.

While the govnerment does not have a duty protect people generally when the govnerment does offer protection to some events it must do so in a manner that is viewpoint neutral. For instance refusing to provide police protection to those who fail to file a permit is acceptable, while refusing to provide police protection to people you disagree with is unacceptable.

I find this point difficult to agree to. The government has a mandate from the people, and that mandate they must follow because it is the platform on which the government is elected. As far as I can tell, the government has no mandate to give especial protection to the likes of Yiannopoulos. Moreover, I think if Yiannopoulos were to brave the hostile assembly, the police will ensure that he arrives at the venue unscathed.

Likewise when the University of California allows people to speak if invited by a recognized student group then they can not decline to do so because they dislike what that person says.

The university must surely have power to override that student group.

[Hyggemata]

This statement suggests that there's a confederation of some sort that's using the mob as a puppet to further their political agenda. Pray tell who.

What suggests what? All I'm pointing out is what happened at the location, and how folks are choosing to react on it.

Acceptable new norm then, using mob violence to silence a speaker whom isn't convenient to your political agenda.

In your post, you used the transitive verb "use" as a present active participle, implying that there must be a subject that used "mob violence to silence... agenda." What or who is that subject?

[Republic of Canador]

I find it wise to listen to the words of your opponents. You understand their motives and reasoning, and can effectively counter them.

But alas, logic has no place among the overly emotional.

[Vlamistaatti]

What suggests what? All I'm pointing out is what happened at the location, and how folks are choosing to react on it.

In your post, you used the transitive verb "use" as a present active participle, implying that there must be a subject that used "mob violence to silence... agenda." What or who is that subject?

I also spoke generally without distinctively referring to anything. Implicating that mob violence is now an accepted form to deal with your opponents, as opposed to proper protests or arguments.

Pretty sure the ones whom "used" the violence in this instance were the rioters, should be something you can figure out without me having to explain it to you.

[Hyggemata]

In your post, you used the transitive verb "use" as a present active participle, implying that there must be a subject that used "mob violence to silence... agenda." What or who is that subject?

I also spoke generally without distinctively referring to anything. Implicating that mob violence is now an accepted form to deal with your opponents, as opposed to proper protests or arguments.

Pretty sure the ones whom "used" the violence in this instance were the rioters, should be something you can figure out without me having to explain it to you.

I was quite seized by the implication that you wrote of someone who orchestrated this mob to further their political agenda.

Nobody said that mob violence was an accepted way to deal with political opposition.

[Luminesa]

I find it wise to listen to the words of your opponents. You understand their motives and reasoning, and can effectively counter them.

But alas, logic has no place among the overly emotional.

Essentially why LSU allows those awful street preachers on campus, once a semester. They say horrible things, but by listening to them one can understand how to counter their hypocrisy and their terribly-twisted version of Christianity.

[Vlamistaatti]

I also spoke generally without distinctively referring to anything. Implicating that mob violence is now an accepted form to deal with your opponents, as opposed to proper protests or arguments.

Pretty sure the ones whom "used" the violence in this instance were the rioters, should be something you can figure out without me having to explain it to you.

I was quite seized by the implication that you wrote of someone who orchestrated this mob to further their political agenda.

Nobody said that mob violence was an accepted way to deal with political opposition.

Well, technically you could say that Black Bloc used their own riot to push their own agenda, I guess? But eh.

It is? Reading through these pages it seems like the average acceptance for them shutting down the event with violence is surprisingly high.

Odd.. Bit funny too, considering how much people moan about the ideals of liberty in here.

[Republic of Canador]

I find it wise to listen to the words of your opponents. You understand their motives and reasoning, and can effectively counter them.

But alas, logic has no place among the overly emotional.

Essentially why LSU allows those awful street preachers on campus, once a semester. They say horrible things, but by listening to them one can understand how to counter their hypocrisy and their terribly-twisted version of Christianity.

I saw footage of protests in which a sign read "This is war." in regards to Milo.

Certainly if it was a war, the "intelligence gathering capabilities" of these colleges would be non existent, as they don't know a single about what they are fighting against. It is a poorly waged "war" that consists of sticking ones fingers in their ears and ignoring anything they disagree with.

For me as a libertarian, I am fascinated with totalitarianism, and spend numerous hours reading about the viewpoints of regimes such as Stalinist USSR and Nazi Germany. I think everybody should read both Mein Kampf and 1984. Knowing your opponents is how you prevail.

[Hyggemata]

I was quite seized by the implication that you wrote of someone who orchestrated this mob to further their political agenda.

Nobody said that mob violence was an accepted way to deal with political opposition.

Well, technically you could say that Black Bloc used their own riot to push their own agenda, I guess? But eh.

Nobody here in this thread has actually expressed approval of anything of that like.

It is? Reading through these pages it seems like the average acceptance for them shutting down the event with violence is surprisingly high.

The idea of shutting down the event is, but nobody approved of the violent means by which it was achieved.

Odd.. Bit funny too, considering how much people moan about the ideals of liberty in here.

Ideals and reality are and will remain different. Sometimes, that's for the better. There will always be unacceptable things to any organized society, and absolute liberty is simply anarchy. Where the limits lie depend on the opinion of the people.

[Telconi]

Hate speech is not and should not be treated as free speech. The interference in Berkeley was justified.

So are we talking actual hate speech, er go, speech directed at a group of people or their beliefs or values? Or are we talking about "Hate Speech" which is just speech you don't like?

[The Texan Union]

Abusive and dangerous in what way? Has he broken the law? If not, there's no reason to suppress him.

He literally just told you.

He has, in past talks, singled out individuals to out them as trans.
Individuals who are sat in the audience.

This is explicitly malicious, this is explicitly dangerous, it is explicitly abusive.

OH!

This? http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/12/milo-yi ... aukee.html

No such thing as a "nonbinary" trans person. Also, that's not harassment. The student can up and leave. Milo didn't follow him, or anything like that. Being made fun of and ridiculed is not dangerous in the slightest. That's ridiculous.

[Jamzmania]

Hate speech is not and should not be treated as free speech. The interference in Berkeley was justified.

So are we talking actual hate speech, er go, speech directed at a group of people or their beliefs or values? Or are we talking about "Hate Speech" which is just speech you don't like?

There's no difference between the two. They are one in the same.

[The Texan Union]

Abusive and dangerous in what way? Has he broken the law? If not, there's no reason to suppress him.

Abusive and dangerous as in he encourages his followers to harass trans people for the purposes of driving them towards what we can only assume is conversion therapy, [url=mediamilwaukee.com/top-stories/milo-yiannopoulos-milwaukee-tour-twitter-uw-uwm-transgender-lockerroom-policy-breitbart-alt-right]and used a speech in UW-Milwaukee to publicly humilliate a trans student in the audience.[/url]

The statement "Trans=mental illness" isn't totally false. It is, after all.

Also, that's not inciting any kind of violence or harassment. You can't just call it that because you think the message might encourage someone to be mean.

As I said before, he can be mean if he wants. Humiliating someone isn't a crime.

[Farnhamia]

Abusive and dangerous as in he encourages his followers to harass trans people for the purposes of driving them towards what we can only assume is conversion therapy, [url=mediamilwaukee.com/top-stories/milo-yiannopoulos-milwaukee-tour-twitter-uw-uwm-transgender-lockerroom-policy-breitbart-alt-right]and used a speech in UW-Milwaukee to publicly humilliate a trans student in the audience.[/url]

The statement "Trans=mental illness" isn't totally false. It is, after all.

Also, that's not inciting any kind of violence or harassment. You can't just call it that because you think the message might encourage someone to be mean.

As I said before, he can be mean if he wants. Humiliating someone isn't a crime.

"Trans=mental illness" will get you warned here, however.

[Jamzmania]

The statement "Trans=mental illness" isn't totally false. It is, after all.

Also, that's not inciting any kind of violence or harassment. You can't just call it that because you think the message might encourage someone to be mean.

As I said before, he can be mean if he wants. Humiliating someone isn't a crime.

"Trans=mental illness" will get you warned here, however.

Why is that?

[Hyggemata]

To close my case, I'll say that free speech means "you can't be punished by speaking". It doesn't mean you can demand action or inaction from anyone so that you can express your opinions.

[Conserative Morality]

OH!

This? http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/12/milo-yi ... aukee.html

No such thing as a "nonbinary" trans person. Also, that's not harassment. The student can up and leave. Milo didn't follow him, or anything like that. Being made fun of and ridiculed is not dangerous in the slightest. That's ridiculous.

It's like saying "Look at this faggot!" in the middle of Iraq. You *do* realize that trans* individuals already suffer violence for being trans with alarming regularity, right?

[Farnhamia]

"Trans=mental illness" will get you warned here, however.

Why is that?

It's considered trolling, that's why. And no, we're not going to discuss it here, that's not what this thread is about. I just wouldn't go there.

[Patridam]

So let me guess, most of the thread is taking the side of the rioters here?

I hope Trump does defund Berkeley, and I hope Milo's book sells great. I only feel bad for the Trump supporters that got beaten, attacked, and pepper sprayed - it's hard for me to be to be a Republican at even a middling private university in Pennsylvania, I can only imagine how terrible it has to be a conservative or libertarian at a hardcore leftist public university deep in blue territory.

[Uiiop]

So let me guess, most of the thread is taking the side of the rioters protesters here?

I hope Trump does defund Berkeley, and I hope Milo's book sells great. I only feel bad for the Trump supporters that got beaten, attacked, and pepper sprayed - it's hard for me to be to be a Republican at even a middling private university in Pennsylvania, I can only imagine how terrible it has to be a conservative or libertarian at a hardcore leftist public university deep in blue territory.

Fixed.
The business and University shouldn't have been harmed but there should have been no-platforming anyways.

[The Texan Union]

Racist? How is he racist?

He made racially charged comments towards a black comedian on Twitter (the overarching debacle got him permanently banned from the site), and he likes to brag about having sex with black men (a red flag, insofar as fetishizing people for their skin tone goes).

He did not make racially charged comments on Twitter. Some of his followers did.

He was banned from the site for making a fake tweet appear as though Leslie had sent it, which is in violation of Twitter's policy.

If you'd like, I could pull a number of tweets from Leslie that are racist, but Milo never sent any.

[Hyggemata]

So let me guess, most of the thread is taking the side of the rioters here?

Your observation isn't quite as accurate as you might think. We agree with what they set out to do but not how they did it.

I hope Trump does defund Berkeley, and I hope Milo's book sells great. I only feel bad for the Trump supporters that got beaten, attacked, and pepper sprayed - it's hard for me to be to be a Republican at even a middling private university in Pennsylvania, I can only imagine how terrible it has to be a conservative or libertarian at a hardcore leftist public university deep in blue territory.

I will do everything within my power to persuade every last publisher not to touch the manuscript of that book with a ten foot pole.

[Republic of Canador]

So let me guess, most of the thread is taking the side of the rioters here?

Your observation isn't quite as accurate as you might think. We agree with what they set out to do but not how they did it.

I hope Trump does defund Berkeley, and I hope Milo's book sells great. I only feel bad for the Trump supporters that got beaten, attacked, and pepper sprayed - it's hard for me to be to be a Republican at even a middling private university in Pennsylvania, I can only imagine how terrible it has to be a conservative or libertarian at a hardcore leftist public university deep in blue territory.

I will do everything within my power to persuade every last publisher not to touch the manuscript of that book with a ten foot pole.

Why? What is wrong with publishing ones views?

[Jamzmania]

So let me guess, most of the thread is taking the side of the rioters protesters here?

I hope Trump does defund Berkeley, and I hope Milo's book sells great. I only feel bad for the Trump supporters that got beaten, attacked, and pepper sprayed - it's hard for me to be to be a Republican at even a middling private university in Pennsylvania, I can only imagine how terrible it has to be a conservative or libertarian at a hardcore leftist public university deep in blue territory.

Fixed.
The business and University shouldn't have been harmed but there should have been no-platforming anyways.

I'm sure you wouldn't mind if they were no-platforming leftists? Liberals, communists, feminists, what-have-you? All because their opinions are disagreeable?

[Hyggemata]

Your observation isn't quite as accurate as you might think. We agree with what they set out to do but not how they did it.


I will do everything within my power to persuade every last publisher not to touch the manuscript of that book with a ten foot pole.

Why? What is wrong with publishing ones views?

What is wrong with persuading publishers not to publish those views?