The Berkeley Incident and Free Speech

[Liriena]

A civil offense is not a misdemeanor.

Immigrating illegally into the US is a criminal offense - a misdemeanor the first time, a felony thereafter. What aren't you understanding here?

Not every undocumented immigrant entered illegally. In fact, a sizeable percentage of undocumented immigrants merely overstay their visas. Ergo, it is quite fair to say that not all those who immigrated illegally committed a criminal offense.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yes, and like I said, the second or third time (can't remember which) is upgraded to a felony.

The first time, as Tarsonis said, is a misdemeanor.

A misdemeanor is still considered a crime.

Never said it wasn't. So at this point you're just trying to get to a specific point, or you think I'm stupid.

I guarantee you is not the second one.

[Liriena]

You just undermined your first sentence with the third, but alright. I'll take the admission, which puts your claim that Yiannopoulos' alleged plans for doxxing would have constituted "whistleblowing" in a tough spot, since the claim would necessarily be based on the assumption that any undocumented student he would have targeted would have been guilty of illegal entry, on top of unlawful presence.

At least 60% of illegal immigrants are guilty of illegal entry.

And how many undocumented students in UC Berkeley are?

(Probably unfair question, I'll admit. Don't think there are any statistics at hand for that)

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Immigrating illegally into the US is a criminal offense - a misdemeanor the first time, a felony thereafter. What aren't you understanding here?

Not every undocumented immigrant entered illegally. In fact, a sizeable percentage of undocumented immigrants merely overstay their visas. Ergo, it is quite fair to say that not all those who immigrated illegally committed a criminal offense.

They still are subject to deportation under unlawful presence. Although with DACA, if you are in college is pretty certain you have some documentation to prove temporary residence permission.

[Liriena]

Not every undocumented immigrant entered illegally. In fact, a sizeable percentage of undocumented immigrants merely overstay their visas. Ergo, it is quite fair to say that not all those who immigrated illegally committed a criminal offense.

They still are subject to deportation under unlawful presence. Although with DACA, if you are in college is pretty certain you have some documentation to prove temporary residence permission.

Mhmm.

[Conserative Morality]

The fourth from the bottom is the dithering one about empathy that takes no firm stance. If that's not the one you aren't counting out of the 10, which one is?

Are you kidding? Did you read the op-ed? It was all about how talking it out, not violence, was the answer. What, is supporting freedom of speech only acceptable if they froth at the mouth and condemn your political opponents?

Also, missed the very first one. I'm used to the picture at the start of online newspapers being a headline and not a separate article.

The next two, okay; the latter is extemely begrudging in allowing Milo the privilege of having constitutional rights, but for right now lets count it.

But the one at the bottom? In what possible way is "The counterargument to Milo Yiannopolous at UC Berkely" pro-Milo?

A misreading, I confess to making a mistake.

[Republic of the Roman Nations]

Illegal immigration is a crime, not a civil offense. Try again.

Illegal trespassing of the U.S. border is a felony, and only at the second or third attempt.

Being in the U.S. without documentation is not a crime, is a civil offense.

[Patridam]

Immigrating illegally into the US is a criminal offense - a misdemeanor the first time, a felony thereafter. What aren't you understanding here?

Not every undocumented immigrant entered illegally. In fact, a sizeable percentage of undocumented immigrants merely overstay their visas. Ergo, it is quite fair to say that not all those who immigrated illegally committed a criminal offense.

Immigrating is the action of entering a country. Therefore quite literally anyone that is an illegal immigrant is someone who entered the country unlawfully and committed a criminal offense.

I don't know what term we ought to use for people who have overstayed their visas (estimates are 30-40%, but they are old so who knows) but they weren't illegal or undocumented or whatever kinder gentler term you want to use when they immigrated to the US. Illegal alien would be more accurate.

All of this messiness comes from people conflating alien with immigrant and illegal with undocumented in an effort to reform opinions through politically correct terminology.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

At least 60% of illegal immigrants are guilty of illegal entry.

And how many undocumented students in UC Berkeley are?

(Probably unfair question, I'll admit. Don't think there are any statistics at hand for that)

At this point, several, but they're in a sort of "limbo" status or "temporary residenceship" due to the DACA program which lets them stay without fear of deportation -- while it is not residency, it is a "deferred deportation" measure which puts them at low risk of deportation.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Illegal trespassing of the U.S. border is a felony, and only at the second or third attempt.

Being in the U.S. without documentation is not a crime, is a civil offense.

And your point being what, exactly? That I DIDN'T say that the first time is a misdemeanor?

[Patridam]

A misreading, I confess to making a mistake.

So at best it's 3 begrudingly in favor of granting Milo his constitutionally guaranteed rights against 7 firmly defending leftist political violence. Great.

[Liriena]

Not every undocumented immigrant entered illegally. In fact, a sizeable percentage of undocumented immigrants merely overstay their visas. Ergo, it is quite fair to say that not all those who immigrated illegally committed a criminal offense.

Immigrating is the action of entering a country. Therefore quite literally anyone that is an illegal immigrant is someone who entered the country unlawfully and committed a criminal offense.

I don't know what term we ought to use for people who have overstayed their visas (estimates are 30-40%, but they are old so who knows) but they weren't illegal or undocumented or whatever kinder gentler term you want to use when they immigrated to the US. Illegal alien would be more accurate.

All of this messiness comes from people conflating alien with immigrant and illegal with undocumented in an effort to reform opinions through politically correct terminology.

We're talking semantics and political correctness now? That's some dull, unpleasant stuff. Like Vogon poetry.

[Conserative Morality]

Also, love the 'innocent until proven guilty' attitude towards Milo, but undocumented immigrants are assumed to be guilty of unlawful entry.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

You don't actually know me though do you. You don't know my position, credentials, ethics, etc. This is an anonymous forum. So you dismisss it on nothing more than your own cognitive bias.

Or rather, I dismiss it on you not providing me with anything that would give your claims any credibility. As you said, I don't know your position, credentials, ethics, etc., so how can I take your claims at face value?

Yet you believe some professor, (who have demonstrated time and time again to not be a class of people above reproach) in Philly somehow found out what Milo was going to do in Berkley, but provided zero evidence of such to protect their "anonymous source". This professor whom, by the way, openly calls for white genocide, but oh yeah they're fucking objective.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Not every undocumented immigrant entered illegally. In fact, a sizeable percentage of undocumented immigrants merely overstay their visas. Ergo, it is quite fair to say that not all those who immigrated illegally committed a criminal offense.

Immigrating is the action of entering a country. Therefore quite literally anyone that is an illegal immigrant is someone who entered the country unlawfully and committed a criminal offense.

I don't know what term we ought to use for people who have overstayed their visas (estimates are 30-40%, but they are old so who knows) but they weren't illegal or undocumented or whatever kinder gentler term you want to use when they immigrated to the US. Illegal alien would be more accurate.

All of this messiness comes from people conflating alien with immigrant and illegal with undocumented in an effort to reform opinions through politically correct terminology.

Illegal alien and illegal immigrant has been used in political discourse to refer to both kinds of people since I was a kid going to high school.

Undocumented immigrant is only the "politically correct version" by changing "illegal" to "undocumented", but that doesn't mean politicians haven't been conflating both populations since way before this, from both sides. Mostly because it is easier to lump everyone into a single population term rather than have precise terms.

[Liriena]

And how many undocumented students in UC Berkeley are?

(Probably unfair question, I'll admit. Don't think there are any statistics at hand for that)

At this point, several, but they're in a sort of "limbo" status or "temporary residenceship" due to the DACA program which lets them stay without fear of deportation -- while it is not residency, it is a "deferred deportation" measure which puts them at low risk of deportation.

Yay! It's something. Here's hoping they don't get screwed over by the new administration.

[Patridam]

At least 60% of illegal immigrants are guilty of illegal entry.

And how many undocumented students in UC Berkeley are?

(Probably unfair question, I'll admit. Don't think there are any statistics at hand for that)

Well unfair in the sense that the argument just halts because there aren't statistics for it, yes, but I don't really see why it would matter how many there are.

This whole discussion is relying on the doxxing rumor being true though, and I haven't seen any evidence proving it.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Actually it's not. Illegal entry is a misdemeanor crime under the US Legal Code. Unlawful presence is however admittedly a civil violation.

You just undermined your first sentence with the third, but alright. I'll take the admission, which puts your claim that Yiannopoulos' alleged plans for doxxing would have constituted "whistleblowing" in a tough spot, since the claim would necessarily be based on the assumption that any undocumented student he would have targeted would have been guilty of illegal entry, on top of unlawful presence.

whistleblowing isn't limited to criminal activity.

[Republic of the Roman Nations]

Also, love the 'innocent until proven guilty' attitude towards Milo, but undocumented immigrants are assumed to be guilty of unlawful entry.

No one said that, both are innocent until proven guilty.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

At this point, several, but they're in a sort of "limbo" status or "temporary residenceship" due to the DACA program which lets them stay without fear of deportation -- while it is not residency, it is a "deferred deportation" measure which puts them at low risk of deportation.

Yay! It's something. Here's hoping they don't get screwed over by the new administration.

While I'd like to continue this discussion, this is better for the Trump thread.

[Liriena]

Or rather, I dismiss it on you not providing me with anything that would give your claims any credibility. As you said, I don't know your position, credentials, ethics, etc., so how can I take your claims at face value?

Yet you believe some professor, (who have demonstrated time and time again to not be a class of people above reproach) in Philly somehow found out what Milo was going to do in Berkley, but provided zero evidence of such to protect their "anonymous source". This professor whom, by the way, openly calls for white genocide, but oh yeah they're fucking objective.

I give his claims a fair bit of credibility based on his willingness to put his name and reputation on the line over this anonymous source's claims, as well as past precedent of Yiannopoulos doxxing individual students during events in their universities.

[Patridam]

Illegal alien and illegal immigrant has been used in political discourse to refer to both kinds of people since I was a kid going to high school.

Undocumented immigrant is only the "politically correct version" by changing "illegal" to "undocumented", but that doesn't mean politicians haven't been conflating both populations since way before this, from both sides.

I'm not blaming the mess all on political correctness, just the conflation of immigrant with alien (alien implies they are nonpermanent, immigrant implies they intend to stay here in perpetuity) and the inexplicable swap of illegal with undocumented.

There honestly should be a firm terminological difference separating those who overstay visas and those who have entered illegally. Because the former are only guilty of violating civil law, while the later have violated criminal law.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And how many undocumented students in UC Berkeley are?

(Probably unfair question, I'll admit. Don't think there are any statistics at hand for that)

Well unfair in the sense that the argument just halts because there aren't statistics for it, yes, but I don't really see why it would matter how many there are.

This whole discussion is relying on the doxxing rumor being true though, and I haven't seen any evidence proving it.

Even if Milo was to doxx them, there wouldn't be shit anyone could do against them since ICE and USCIS still respect DACA, which is in place until it either phases out, or Trump revokes it before it does. So the rumor was basically dogwhistling from the people who started the rumor.

[Liriena]

You just undermined your first sentence with the third, but alright. I'll take the admission, which puts your claim that Yiannopoulos' alleged plans for doxxing would have constituted "whistleblowing" in a tough spot, since the claim would necessarily be based on the assumption that any undocumented student he would have targeted would have been guilty of illegal entry, on top of unlawful presence.

whistleblowing isn't limited to criminal activity.

I personally like to reserve the term for people who, in good faith, reveal the secrets of the powerful in the name of transparency.

Doxxing private individuals in an attempt to have them harassed by your dickhead followers as part of a far right stunt against trans people or immigrants is not whistleblowing.

[Conserative Morality]

A misreading, I confess to making a mistake.

So at best it's 3 begrudingly in favor of granting Milo his constitutionally guaranteed rights against 7 firmly defending leftist political violence. Great.

From "not represented" to "only 1" to "3". (on the next page it jumps to 4, but there're mostly unrelated articles there). The bottom one, "A counterargument" does not defend violence or even address the issue of violence, and the first article which I initially missed cites the nonviolent (nonviolent being the word they specifically used) civil rights protests of the 60s as their model for protesting against Milo. So what, 6-5, with one saying nothing of interest? Wonderful. What a liberal circlejerk.