I hate cars. Ban them!

[Tekania]

To be fair, Neesika isn't calling for a complete ban on "cars"

I hate hydrocarbon burning vehicles. Hate. With a passion. As with many 'causes' I suppose my hatred of cars stems from personal experiences and/or selfish desires. So let me come clean and explain what I hate about cars, and why I think we should ban them. Outright.

lolwut

I'm aware that our current mode of living means we cannot in one fell swoop eliminate all motor vehicles. We need transport so those of us in urban centres don't starve to death, and so on. But I do not believe we need anything near the amount of vehicles that are currently on the road, and not nearly enough is being done to shift us away from vehicular dependency.

You know what you can do with your lolwut.... and man will it hurt with all those hard lines in those letters...

[Natapoc]

Sounds like you are anti car then (urban sprawl being a result of car culture) Welcome to the side of progress! Don't be jaded.

I don't really care anymore. I have a car. I use a car. The lack of viable public transit in this area means that I must use a car. Why shouldn't I be jaded as fuck?

We will get a better public transit system eventually. It just takes time. Society takes forever to make even small changes. It is the way things have always been. But when they finally accept it everything is better

[Buffett and Colbert]

Oh well.

[Vesser]

To be fair, Neesika isn't calling for a complete ban on "cars"

I hate hydrocarbon burning vehicles. Hate. With a passion. As with many 'causes' I suppose my hatred of cars stems from personal experiences and/or selfish desires. So let me come clean and explain what I hate about cars, and why I think we should ban them. Outright.

lolwut

I'm aware that our current mode of living means we cannot in one fell swoop eliminate all motor vehicles. We need transport so those of us in urban centres don't starve to death, and so on. But I do not believe we need anything near the amount of vehicles that are currently on the road, and not nearly enough is being done to shift us away from vehicular dependency.

You know what you can do with your lolwut.... and man will it hurt with all those hard lines in those letters...

Please fill me in with what I can do with my lolwut.

Will it involve shouting one thing, and then immediately saying your words were taken out of context when there is no context? Because if so, I would rather not.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Nonsense! Positions of abject apathy default to the status quo, not the change. Clearly he's not anti- OR pro-car, but in not caring and doing nothing about it he is lending aid to the pro-car choice by keeping things how they are.

Not that it's terribly valuable for us to have then angsty, 'too cool to care' teen on our team but hey, whatever right

I'm not a teen, I'm not really angsty (believe it or not, I'm mostly content with life), and I'm definitely not cool. I'm just realistic. Humans are always going to be mere shadows of what they could be.

[Geilinor]

Cars are a convenience that are quite useful in developed countries with lots of urban sprawl. They are almost a necessity. The only way cars could be banned is if there was a good public transportation system that served almost every corner of the country. And it's kind of hard to manage and build such a large public transportation system

[Natapoc]

People have been destroying things and embracing ignorance, superstition, and irrationality for as long as they have been around. Typically humans like to hypocritically accuse each other of such.

So which side here do you feel is embracing ignorance, superstition, and irrationally and which side do you feel is being rational? Why?

I'm not talking about this thread in particular. I just mean that humans have earned my seal of not caring about them anymore.

I don't care about humanity. It can do all the stupid self-destructive stuff it wants for all I care. Make urban sprawl worse. Let some other idealist that hasn't been jaded beyond all hope try to change the world. I give up.

Sounds like you are anti car then (urban sprawl being a result of car culture) Welcome to the side of progress! Don't be jaded.

Nonsense! Positions of abject apathy default to the status quo, not the change. Clearly he's not anti- OR pro-car, but in not caring and doing nothing about it he is lending aid to the pro-car choice by keeping things how they are.

Not that it's terribly valuable for us to have then angsty, 'too cool to care' teen on our team but hey, whatever right

True cars being the status quo apathy is effectively support of the current pro car culture. But still I have hope for him. I suspect his apathy will be transformed into action and he will help in developing non vehicular based transportation methods that are far superior to either cars or trains.

[Geilinor]

I hate hydrocarbon burning vehicles. Hate. With a passion. As with many 'causes' I suppose my hatred of cars stems from personal experiences and/or selfish desires. So let me come clean and explain what I hate about cars, and why I think we should ban them. Outright.

1) I don't want my children continuously exposed to exhaust fumes. I think it's inexcusable to be exposing all of us to such high levels of carcinogens on a daily basis. In fact, it seems absolutely insane.

When combined with close proximity to an emissions source, such as a bus or coach station, a child was at 12 times the risk of dying from cancer.

12 times the fucking risk? UNACCEPTABLE. Not to mention the other health problems associated with vehicle exhaust. What sane person wants that? By the way drivers, you too are at risk in your car.

2) I find the direct automobile mortality rate unacceptable. USians! Tens of thousands of you are killed every year in motor vehicle accidents! And you aren't even one of the worst countries for fatal auto crashes! Car crashes are the leading cause of accidental death. The seventh largest killer overall.

Now I don't drive anymore, so my chances of a highway collision (the most likely way to be fatally smashed to a pulp by hundreds of pounds of steel) have lessened. Unfortunately you can get wiped off the face of the earth just crossing the street when some moron blows through a light, a crosswalk, or down your residential street. Yeah, 33 pedestrian deaths in Montreal may not sound so horrible. How about 986 in LA? Compare that to 381 homicides in 2008 in that same city. Fuck worrying about crime, I'm worried about getting plastered all over the pavement!

These are the two main reasons I hate cars, but here's another.

3) I'm tired of cities accommodating themselves to vehicles, rather than people. This may be less of a problem in older cities, but the newer cities are built like fairy-land suburban car paradises. Talk about urban sprawl! Drive through mall experiences! No public space, fuck you who needs sidewalks when I gotsa HUMMER! Strip mall after strip mall. It's an unsustainable way to live, and the fact that we deliberately construct inefficient urban landscapes made for cars, not people, drives me nuts.

I'm aware that our current mode of living means we cannot in one fell swoop eliminate all motor vehicles. We need transport so those of us in urban centres don't starve to death, and so on. But I do not believe we need anything near the amount of vehicles that are currently on the road, and not nearly enough is being done to shift us away from vehicular dependency.

Yeah, I hate second hand smoke, but I hate cars more.

You should consider that banning cars could kill (literally) the economy and banning them is impossible considering our lifestyles.

[Natapoc]

I hate hydrocarbon burning vehicles. Hate. With a passion. As with many 'causes' I suppose my hatred of cars stems from personal experiences and/or selfish desires. So let me come clean and explain what I hate about cars, and why I think we should ban them. Outright.

1) I don't want my children continuously exposed to exhaust fumes. I think it's inexcusable to be exposing all of us to such high levels of carcinogens on a daily basis. In fact, it seems absolutely insane.

When combined with close proximity to an emissions source, such as a bus or coach station, a child was at 12 times the risk of dying from cancer.

12 times the fucking risk? UNACCEPTABLE. Not to mention the other health problems associated with vehicle exhaust. What sane person wants that? By the way drivers, you too are at risk in your car.

2) I find the direct automobile mortality rate unacceptable. USians! Tens of thousands of you are killed every year in motor vehicle accidents! And you aren't even one of the worst countries for fatal auto crashes! Car crashes are the leading cause of accidental death. The seventh largest killer overall.

Now I don't drive anymore, so my chances of a highway collision (the most likely way to be fatally smashed to a pulp by hundreds of pounds of steel) have lessened. Unfortunately you can get wiped off the face of the earth just crossing the street when some moron blows through a light, a crosswalk, or down your residential street. Yeah, 33 pedestrian deaths in Montreal may not sound so horrible. How about 986 in LA? Compare that to 381 homicides in 2008 in that same city. Fuck worrying about crime, I'm worried about getting plastered all over the pavement!

These are the two main reasons I hate cars, but here's another.

3) I'm tired of cities accommodating themselves to vehicles, rather than people. This may be less of a problem in older cities, but the newer cities are built like fairy-land suburban car paradises. Talk about urban sprawl! Drive through mall experiences! No public space, fuck you who needs sidewalks when I gotsa HUMMER! Strip mall after strip mall. It's an unsustainable way to live, and the fact that we deliberately construct inefficient urban landscapes made for cars, not people, drives me nuts.

I'm aware that our current mode of living means we cannot in one fell swoop eliminate all motor vehicles. We need transport so those of us in urban centres don't starve to death, and so on. But I do not believe we need anything near the amount of vehicles that are currently on the road, and not nearly enough is being done to shift us away from vehicular dependency.

Yeah, I hate second hand smoke, but I hate cars more.

You should consider that banning cars could kill (literally) the economy and banning them is impossible considering our lifestyles.

Source please.

[Neesika]

So, while it is true that automobile traffic increases the likelihood of death to pedestrians, directly linking these two values is erroneous.

Also, am I reading this right? Are you seriously using a total number of pedestrian deaths over a period of 10 years?

Damn yes, yes I am. Thanks for noting the disconnect, since the total number of homicides was from one year.

Okay. Here are some more stats.

In 2003 (whew, one year) 4,709 pedestrians were killed when struck by a vehicle. That's taking all stats in the US. There were 16,528 homicides in the same year. My apologies.

[Neesika]

Why do you need more groceries then you can carry or put in a backpack?

When I was growing up we made a monthly grocery trip. Much more than what you could fit in a backpack.

Obviously the main reduction in vehicular traffic needs to happen where vehicles are most concentrated, and least necessary which is the urban centres.

[Natapoc]

So, while it is true that automobile traffic increases the likelihood of death to pedestrians, directly linking these two values is erroneous.

Also, am I reading this right? Are you seriously using a total number of pedestrian deaths over a period of 10 years?

Damn yes, yes I am. Thanks for noting the disconnect, since the total number of homicides was from one year.

Okay. Here are some more stats.

In 2003 (whew, one year) 4,709 pedestrians were killed when struck by a vehicle. That's taking all stats in the US. There were 16,528 homicides in the same year. My apologies.

True however that does not include people who were injured but not killed (which is everything from being comatose for life to a broken leg or chronic pain) as a result of collisions with cars.
From your source:

An estimated 70,000 pedestrians were injured or killed in motor vehicle collisions

[Neesika]

No. So she has no one who can help her? Do you know that car ownership is not ubiquitous and that even now not all single mothers with 4+ kids have cars? they manage to get by somehow>

I know, that's somewhat shocking isn't it? As a single mother, I can tell you from personal experience that living in an isolated rural area isn't really much of an option, especially if you can't afford a car. Hence why I moved to a town. Still rural, but at least close enough to essential services. And no, carrying heavy groceries while you have two kids walking with you who want you to carry them isn't fun, even if you're only going 12 blocks or so, but guess what, no one actually gives a fuck about us except when we're being used as some sort of far out example of how we can't possibly cut down the number of cars on the road.

[Natapoc]

Why do you need more groceries then you can carry or put in a backpack?

When I was growing up we made a monthly grocery trip. Much more than what you could fit in a backpack.

Obviously the main reduction in vehicular traffic needs to happen where vehicles are most concentrated, and least necessary which is the urban centres.

True but I just don't want rural areas to miss out on the advantages of public transportation which could so easily be realized. City people can't get all the fun

[Neesika]

True however that does not include people who were injured but not killed (which is everything from being comatose for life to a broken leg or chronic pain) as a result of collisions with cars.
From your source:

An estimated 70,000 pedestrians were injured or killed in motor vehicle collisions

Yeah, I couldn't make sense of that stat, nor could I access the source of it, so I didn't post it. It appears to be from one year, but are they...are they counting DRIVERS as pedestrians or something? It's just such a huuuge number, and not explained well.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

True but I just don't want rural areas to miss out on the advantages of public transportation which could so easily be realized. City people can't get all the fun

How exactly would massive public transit work out here in the semi to fully rural areas?

[Kisia]

I hate hydrocarbon burning vehicles. Hate. With a passion. As with many 'causes' I suppose my hatred of cars stems from personal experiences and/or selfish desires. So let me come clean and explain what I hate about cars, and why I think we should ban them. Outright.

1) I don't want my children continuously exposed to exhaust fumes. I think it's inexcusable to be exposing all of us to such high levels of carcinogens on a daily basis. In fact, it seems absolutely insane.

When combined with close proximity to an emissions source, such as a bus or coach station, a child was at 12 times the risk of dying from cancer.

12 times the fucking risk? UNACCEPTABLE. Not to mention the other health problems associated with vehicle exhaust. What sane person wants that? By the way drivers, you too are at risk in your car.

2) I find the direct automobile mortality rate unacceptable. USians! Tens of thousands of you are killed every year in motor vehicle accidents! And you aren't even one of the worst countries for fatal auto crashes! Car crashes are the leading cause of accidental death. The seventh largest killer overall.

Now I don't drive anymore, so my chances of a highway collision (the most likely way to be fatally smashed to a pulp by hundreds of pounds of steel) have lessened. Unfortunately you can get wiped off the face of the earth just crossing the street when some moron blows through a light, a crosswalk, or down your residential street. Yeah, 33 pedestrian deaths in Montreal may not sound so horrible. How about 986 in LA? Compare that to 381 homicides in 2008 in that same city. Fuck worrying about crime, I'm worried about getting plastered all over the pavement!

These are the two main reasons I hate cars, but here's another.

3) I'm tired of cities accommodating themselves to vehicles, rather than people. This may be less of a problem in older cities, but the newer cities are built like fairy-land suburban car paradises. Talk about urban sprawl! Drive through mall experiences! No public space, fuck you who needs sidewalks when I gotsa HUMMER! Strip mall after strip mall. It's an unsustainable way to live, and the fact that we deliberately construct inefficient urban landscapes made for cars, not people, drives me nuts.

I'm aware that our current mode of living means we cannot in one fell swoop eliminate all motor vehicles. We need transport so those of us in urban centres don't starve to death, and so on. But I do not believe we need anything near the amount of vehicles that are currently on the road, and not nearly enough is being done to shift us away from vehicular dependency.

Yeah, I hate second hand smoke, but I hate cars more.

You should consider that banning cars could kill (literally) the economy and banning them is impossible considering our lifestyles.

Yah, and what about the 1000's of people who'd lose their jobs? Also, if you banned cars, my whole fucking neighborhood might as well disapear. We live ot of zone, and thus, we cant get city buses out into our areas. I cant (nor want) to bike 6 or seven miles into the city, and go to my job, pick up and drop off my kids, and things like that. More eco-friendly cars are staring to come out (like the Nissan Leaf,) But really, if theyd make a eco friendly car that looks like a car, NOT something 25-30 years down the line, I'd buy it. For now, I'll stick with my polluting truck.

[Neesika]

If you can ride your bike 5 miles back and forth carrying groceries, congratulation's, you're in good shape.



It's just to impractical for most mothers, or even most people, to consider doing that.

People do this all the time...I'm not sure why you think it's extraordinary?

My love rides his bike to and from work every single working day of the year, rain, snow, or shine. When he has his two daughters, he rides with them to drop them off at school. Quite often he is carrying a ridiculous amount of shit with him when he does said riding. And the hills in Montreal are scary.

Could I do it? No. For sure not. Not yet. For one, driving in Montreal traffic on a bike scares the fuck out of me even with bike lanes, and two, I'm just not in that good of shape right now.

But I could be. And so could you.

A lot of moms and dads here use bike trailers, you know, the ones for toddlers? So they can haul their kids or, while the kids are at school or being cared for elsewhere, they use the bike trailer for groceries. It's an awesome system, you can haul a lot in those things.

The point is, people are smart, and inventive, and those with kids (sorry, but I have to say it) necessarily more so.

[Neesika]

If we ban cars, what will we tip over during riots?

This is the only counter argument I've seen that has come so close to changing my mind on the whole issue.

[Natapoc]

True but I just don't want rural areas to miss out on the advantages of public transportation which could so easily be realized. City people can't get all the fun

How exactly would massive public transit work out here in the semi to fully rural areas?

School busses already serve most rural areas. So public transit actually exists at least twice a day for most rural areas. It is just restricted to the population that attends public schools.

[Alevuss]

wow who are you? God? Who are you that you can set standards which humans must meet in order to deserve to exist?

How have they thrown away all of their potential anyway?

Because they fail to use the one thing that they have. Elephants have strength, birds can fly, gazelles have speed and agility.

Humans lack these things. They have the power to know and understand, and the power to create. They squander these abilities so much that, if anything can be called a sin, it is the degree to which such potential is wasted.

They could understand. Instead they embrace ignorance, superstition, and irrationality. They could create. Instead, most of them chose to destroy. They destroy their minds and the world. Destruction is easy. Fucking waste.

Those statistics were pretty shocking. Scary actually. I can't tell you how many times people have waited for my family's car to be right in front of the cross-walk and then sprint across. And after last year, I can't get the image out of my mind, when I was on my way home from school and saw a dog get hit by a car. The past, though has shown humanity has squandered their abilities and traded them for destruction. People have become reliant on the technology. We've become part of a lazy existence. Today's problems have made me paranoid.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

School busses already serve most rural areas. So public transit actually exists at least twice a day for most rural areas. It is just restricted to the population that attends public schools.

I want to go from here to the next nearest town 12 miles away. Somebody else wants to go to the next nearest semi-city, 45-50 miles away. Solution? Cars or an ungodly inconvenient bus route.

[Tekania]

Please fill me in with what I can do with my lolwut.

Will it involve shouting one thing, and then immediately saying your words were taken out of context when there is no context? Because if so, I would rather not.

No, it involves shoving it up your rectum... Apparently you were not competent enough to divine that...

[Neesika]

In case anyone was wondering, the latest figure of pedestrian deaths from Neesika's NTSB-related source puts pedestrian deaths related to automobile incidents in the year of 2006 at 99, which is about a third of homocide-related deaths that Neesika referred to in the OP. A cursory glance at the statistics provided in the report show that it's about the mean value of deaths per year in LA, though an increase from 83 in 2004 and 96 in 2005.

If that report shows me anything, it's that local governments need to step up and design better roads that increase visibility to the driver between the hours of 6pm and 9pm.

Another thing the boroughs here do is try to force drivers to slow the fuck down. Stop signs and pedestrian crosswalks don't really do this, they are apparently just mere suggestions. So a lot of residential roads have large speed bumps. Other areas force cars to sort of weave down the road by setting up large concrete blocks to create a bit of an obstacle course, making it impossible to speed. I think that is also massively helpful.

What I like more though are the alleyways that have been closed to vehicular traffic by the nifty process of putting trees in the way. My neighbourhood petitioned to have this done, and it's quite a lovely place to walk now:

Even cooler however, are the days when entire swaths of streets get closed to cars completely for whatever festival is going on. It's so fucking nice to have people walking in the streets and using the space as a community that you really wonder why we don't make more spaces like this permanently.

[Neesika]

I couldn't agree less! Banning cars is like banning penicillin, you do that and your kicking humanity in the throat and taking away the most important discovery ever.

The printing press is the most important invention in human history. Mass dissemination of knowledge is what has made every single thing since possible.

Oh pish. If we hadn't invented sex, there would BE no human history!