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Is the left unfairly bashing Trump on social issues?

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:12 pm

Crockerland wrote:
Liriena wrote:Equality under the law is a "buzzword" now? Please, do elaborate on that. I want to hear you explain yourself in great detail. :3

Equality under the law is not a buzzword, you used it as a buzzword when you acted as though anti-infanticide legislation was somehow a violation of equality

Anti-abortion laws are a violation of equality under the law.

And abortion is not infanticide. If you're so convinced of your beliefs, you shouldn't have to lie about them like that.

Crockerland wrote:
Liriena wrote:It's ultimately rooted in the belief that the primary purpose of women's bodies is childbirth, and that this supposed purpose gives society the right to force any woman to carry a fetus to term, her privacy and freedom and equality under the law be damned.

Unless laws against killing humans who are still not fully developed would be applied only to women and not transmen, or only to a certain race of women, it obviously isn't discrimination at all, and to throw it in as though it is remotely applicable to the situation is laughable and obviously you've simply downgraded it to buzzword status.

Nah.

Crockerland wrote:
Liriena wrote:Also, no, abortion is not anti-equality, because a fetus is not equal to an actual person in the first place. Way to try and throw in a premise we did not agree on.

I didn't say "person", I said "human", and yes, fetuses are obviously human; It is simply not possible for one animal to transform into an entirely different kind of animal, so if fetuses are not human than there are no humans alive on the Earth, as everyone was a fetus at some point.

Fetuses may be human, but so is my appendix. The question is not whether fetuses are human, but whether a fetus can be considered a separate person from their hosts, and whether a person has the right to use another person's body, and potentially endanger said other person's health, without their consent.
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:52 pm

Kubra wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:
The "personhood of fetuses" is only a bullshit ethical appeal to distract us from taking away female sexual freedoms.
Regardless of whether or not one buys into a particular ethical appeal, there is no reason to suppose it is not belief honestly held.


It is honestly held by the people you'll see on internet forums or in front of Planned Parenthood arguing for it. I'm skeptical of the origins of the pro-life movement, though, and wonder whether or not their initial shift towards arguments for personhood had anything to do with the fact that overt sexism as an argument against birth control/abortion wasn't really popular anymore.

My hypothesis is that it was a shady way to shift the debate in order to keep this idea, which should have died a long time ago, alive. Convincing people there is a genocide of fetuses is much more dramatic and demanding than saying "women shouldn't be sexually free".
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:55 pm

Republic of Canador wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:
The "personhood of fetuses" is only a bullshit ethical appeal to distract us from taking away female sexual freedoms.

Do you have a source for this?


This is, effectively, what the argument does in right-wing circles. I'm not making a claim that this is the intended purpose of people arguing against abortion, only observing how they can effectively change the terms of debate from "whether or not women should control their own bodies and have a right to privacy", which is what Roe v. Wade was about, to "whether or not non-people are people".
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Collectivist Germania
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Postby Collectivist Germania » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:08 pm

Liriena wrote:
Crockerland wrote:Equality under the law is not a buzzword, you used it as a buzzword when you acted as though anti-infanticide legislation was somehow a violation of equality

Anti-abortion laws are a violation of equality under the law.

And abortion is not infanticide. If you're so convinced of your beliefs, you shouldn't have to lie about them like that.

Crockerland wrote:Unless laws against killing humans who are still not fully developed would be applied only to women and not transmen, or only to a certain race of women, it obviously isn't discrimination at all, and to throw it in as though it is remotely applicable to the situation is laughable and obviously you've simply downgraded it to buzzword status.

Nah.

Crockerland wrote:I didn't say "person", I said "human", and yes, fetuses are obviously human; It is simply not possible for one animal to transform into an entirely different kind of animal, so if fetuses are not human than there are no humans alive on the Earth, as everyone was a fetus at some point.

Fetuses may be human, but so is my appendix. The question is not whether fetuses are human, but whether a fetus can be considered a separate person from their hosts, and whether a person has the right to use another person's body, and potentially endanger said other person's health, without their consent.


I'm both Pro-life and Pro-choice if that makes sense. Hypothetically if I were in a position of pregnancy where my health is endangered, I would personally rather endure that ordeal than to kill off my offspring because it did so without my consent. I find the alternative to be ignoble and abhorrent and if the practice were to be banned then it's no skin off my back. However, I find that the issue of abortion is also a matter for the hosts conscience to bear. Whether that matters or not to them isn't my business and it isn't necessarily the business of other people either.
With that being said, I think the right should concede on this issue.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:21 pm

Collectivist Germania wrote:
I'm both Pro-life and Pro-choice if that makes sense.


Hmmm? I have heard that before but it usually falls apart when pressed for definitions. Anyway.....

Hypothetically if I were in a position of pregnancy where my health is endangered, I would personally rather endure that ordeal than to kill off my offspring because it did so without my consent.


Doctors don't suggest the action unless they are confident you were to have serious ramifications.

However, nobody can force the issue. If you declare you want to die to deliver this child, they will honor the request. They will continue to change your mind but you can't be forced into an abortion.

I find the alternative to be ignoble and abhorrent and if the practice were to be banned then it's no skin off my back. However, I find that the issue of abortion is also a matter for the hosts conscience to bear. Whether that matters or not to them isn't my business and it isn't necessarily the business of other people either.
With that being said, I think the right should concede on this issue.


The best way for the right to "win" this "battle" would be to create an environment that would support women and give them better options. But it will probably never happen. It's socialism after all! Hell if we simply made neonatal care free to all, many problems could be avoided and treated with far less cost......
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Collectivist Germania
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Postby Collectivist Germania » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:27 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Collectivist Germania wrote:
I'm both Pro-life and Pro-choice if that makes sense.


Hmmm? I have heard that before but it usually falls apart when pressed for definitions. Anyway.....

Hypothetically if I were in a position of pregnancy where my health is endangered, I would personally rather endure that ordeal than to kill off my offspring because it did so without my consent.


Doctors don't suggest the action unless they are confident you were to have serious ramifications.

However, nobody can force the issue. If you declare you want to die to deliver this child, they will honor the request. They will continue to change your mind but you can't be forced into an abortion.

I find the alternative to be ignoble and abhorrent and if the practice were to be banned then it's no skin off my back. However, I find that the issue of abortion is also a matter for the hosts conscience to bear. Whether that matters or not to them isn't my business and it isn't necessarily the business of other people either.
With that being said, I think the right should concede on this issue.


The best way for the right to "win" this "battle" would be to create an environment that would support women and give them better options. But it will probably never happen. It's socialism after all! Hell if we simply made neonatal care free to all, many problems could be avoided and treated with far less cost......


There's no such thing as a free lunch, as the saying goes. If universal healthcare was provided, some snowflakes would complain about rising taxes. But then I guess there's no pleasing everybody.
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Minoa
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Postby Minoa » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:35 am

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Banning people because of their religion is bad form. The last time a nation went nuts over someone's religion 6 million people died.

Hola,

His vow to ban Muslims, which he later tried to soften down, especially when Sadiq Khan became Mayor of London, still leaves a very sour taste to the extent that the fact that there are fears of racism and sexism are understandable.

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Great Franconia and Verana
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Postby Great Franconia and Verana » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:40 am

The Black Forrest wrote:
Greater USA wrote:Millions of people took to the streets in recent days in support of women after President Trump's inauguration.

My one question for you guys: why? Women in the western world are, for all intents and purposes, equal to men.


Stopped reading there.

Same.
Trump is a walking disaster, particularly on the issues that have been moving forward so steadily up to this point.
I mean, we are talking about a guy who floated the idea of punishing people who got abortions, and admitted openly to sexual assault. I'm not really sure why exactly this is even up for debate.

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Saikaya
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Postby Saikaya » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:43 am

The Black Forrest wrote:
Greater USA wrote:Millions of people took to the streets in recent days in support of women after President Trump's inauguration.

My one question for you guys: why? Women in the western world are, for all intents and purposes, equal to men.


Stopped reading there.

What rights do women not have?
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Mattopilos
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Postby Mattopilos » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:46 am

Saikaya wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Stopped reading there.

What rights do women not have?


Well, there is the whole planned parenthood debate occurring at the moment. Also, I think it is less a question of 'rights', so much as access and magnitude of those 'rights'.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:55 am

Mattopilos wrote:
Saikaya wrote:What rights do women not have?


Well, there is the whole planned parenthood debate occurring at the moment. Also, I think it is less a question of 'rights', so much as access and magnitude of those 'rights'.

Arguably maternity leave as well. But that applies to both men and women, so it's more of a general American thing.

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Mattopilos
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Postby Mattopilos » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:56 am

Alvecia wrote:
Mattopilos wrote:
Well, there is the whole planned parenthood debate occurring at the moment. Also, I think it is less a question of 'rights', so much as access and magnitude of those 'rights'.

Arguably maternity leave as well. But that applies to both men and women, so it's more of a general American thing.


Gender neutrality in law at least would be nice.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:58 am

Mattopilos wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Arguably maternity leave as well. But that applies to both men and women, so it's more of a general American thing.


Gender neutrality in law at least would be nice.

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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:18 am

Lady Scylla wrote:https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/823210956566261762

Kellyanne Conway: "The president went to the intelligence community yesterday to establish good relationships with them. And we had over 1,000 requests to attend. We could only accommodate a few hundred.

He will be back. He got a standing ovation. And it’s really time for him to put in his own security intelligence community. We really would prefer the intelligence community that is going out the door to be much more respectful toward the president and his vision in moving forward.

We're not really thrilled with the leaks that have come out with the last several weeks or months. And we think in the interest of keeping us all safe, George, that the intelligence community that we saw on their feet yesterday, welcoming President Trump for his rousing speech, is the one that we look forward to working with."


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/week-tra ... d=44954948

Trumpstapo when?
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:23 am

Finium wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:Can you clarify that again, or what I bolded?

> Conservatives raged when Obama was elected
> Liberals claimed he deserved more respect as President

> Liberals raged when Trump was elected
> Conservatives say he deserves respect as President

See the vicious cycle?


Fundamental difference: Trump is being criticised for things he has actually said and done. The criticisms you're referring to directed at Obama were blatant unhidden racism.
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PaNTuXIa
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Postby PaNTuXIa » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:02 am

Yes, absolutely. Trump is the first president to go into office supporting gay marriage openly. I'd assume he's pretty liberal.
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Mattopilos
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Postby Mattopilos » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:07 am

PaNTuXIa wrote:Yes, absolutely. Trump is the first president to go into office supporting gay marriage openly. I'd assume he's pretty liberal.


... This has to be a joke. liberal? Has the political spectrum in America moved so far right that he is considered a liberal now?
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Pasong Tirad
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:10 am

Not unfairly. The right bashed Obama for a good eight years - and the left probably bashed Bush way before and the list goes on and on way back into when Alexander Hamilton was writing about how John Adams was shit.
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:10 am

Mattopilos wrote:
PaNTuXIa wrote:Yes, absolutely. Trump is the first president to go into office supporting gay marriage openly. I'd assume he's pretty liberal.


... This has to be a joke. liberal? Has the political spectrum in America moved so far right that he is considered a liberal now?

Consider it another way. Gay marriage has become so non-partisan that even Trump, the guy who rode in on a wave of evangelical support, supports it.

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Olivaero
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Postby Olivaero » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:16 am

PaNTuXIa wrote:Yes, absolutely. Trump is the first president to go into office supporting gay marriage openly. I'd assume he's pretty liberal.

Haha, that's ridiculous logic. What if Hitler had supported Gay marriage? would he of been a liberal leader?
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Maichuko
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Postby Maichuko » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:16 am

I'm still waiting to see how he treats Muslims. After he has police round up and deport the refugee's living here of course.
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:21 am

Maichuko wrote:I'm still waiting to see how he treats Muslims. After he has police round up and deport the refugee's living here of course.

He didn't back off on the Moozlem Databaisu idea. And if Daesh or some other jihadi group pulls a 9/11 scale attack, all those Japanese Internment museums will be refurbished into Muslim Internment camps.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
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Opfornia
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Postby Opfornia » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:33 am

Mattopilos wrote:
Saikaya wrote:What rights do women not have?


Well, there is the whole planned parenthood debate occurring at the moment. Also, I think it is less a question of 'rights', so much as access and magnitude of those 'rights'.

How exactly is "the whole planned parenthood debate" a matter of rights? Abortion clinics aren't illegal, people have a problem with their tax dollars going toward them.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:36 am

Opfornia wrote:
Mattopilos wrote:
Well, there is the whole planned parenthood debate occurring at the moment. Also, I think it is less a question of 'rights', so much as access and magnitude of those 'rights'.

How exactly is "the whole planned parenthood debate" a matter of rights? Abortion clinics aren't illegal, people have a problem with their tax dollars going toward them.

It's a bit more than that though, isn't it. There are innumerable political figures who would outlaw it if possible.
Currently though they're making do by making it almost impossible for any abortion clinic to open, or remain open. Even going so far as to introduce legislation specifically targeting them.

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Arkinesia
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Postby Arkinesia » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:37 am

Opfornia wrote:Abortion clinics aren't illegal, people have a problem with their tax dollars going toward them.

I see you haven't been keeping up with the news lately.
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