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Brexit will bring a United Ireland closer

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Ni Cheapaim
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Brexit will bring a United Ireland closer

Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:24 am

http://www.independent.ie/business/brex ... 76614.html

UK Prime Minister Theresa May's pledge to maintain a Common Travel Area with Ireland once Britain leaves the EU has been thrown in doubt by senior Government ministers and key figures in Brussels.

In her long-awaited Brexit speech, Mrs May said she would seek to retain free movement between Ireland and Britain once negotiations begin in March.
Mrs May said she did not want to see the return of a hard border between the North and Republic, and said this would be a key demand during talks.

Mrs May also insisted she intended to take Britain entirely out of the EU single market - and warned the UK would not seek a "partial" or "associate" membership of the union.
The Government welcomed Mrs May's commitment to the Common Travel Area with Ireland, but said it was "under no illusions" of the challenges it was facing and conceded a 'hard Brexit' was inevitable.

Privately, Cabinet ministers raised concerns over how Mrs May would convince her EU counterparts to allow Britain to maintain a Common Travel Area with Ireland, but not with other member states.

Last night, a senior Fine Gael minister said Brussels would demand a hard border between the North and South even if the Common Travel Area between Britain and Ireland remains.

"By listening to the Taoiseach and prime minister, I believe the rest of Europe will insist on a hard border and the Border will have to be manned," the minister said.

A Government source said that Taoiseach Enda Kenny emphasised the importance of no return of a hard border and maintaining the integrity of the common travel area with Mrs May before her speech.

The source said the Government was happy Mr Kenny's comments were taken on board by the prime minster when she noted a "special relationship" between the two countries. But it said details of how a hard border could be avoided "have yet to be worked out".
Meanwhile, in Brussels one senior diplomat said the speech by Mrs May was "not very realistic" and signalled very hard and long upcoming negotiations.

"The decision that Britain is totally leaving not just the single market but also the customs union has huge ramifications for trade and the threat of tariffs. This is not necessarily good news for Ireland," the diplomat said.

A second official source warned that the coming two years would be "a rollercoaster ride" with talks likely to wax and wane. Much would depend on whether the UK economy could hold up over the negotiating period.

"These will be very difficult negotiations with all the other 27 EU member states throwing in their contributions based on their national interests," the source said.

The EU Parliament's Brexit negotiator, Guy Verhofstadt, said yesterday it was an "illusion" to think that Britain could enjoy the advantages of the European Union's single market without accepting the obligations that come with it.

"Threatening to turn the UK into a deregulated tax heaven will not only hurt British people - it is a counterproductive negotiating tactic," he said.

"Britain has chosen a hard Brexit. Mrs May's clarity is welcome - but the days of UK cherry-picking and Europe a la cart are over."
EU Council president Donald Tusk said the union was in the middle of a "sad process" and "surrealistic teams", but added that Mrs May's speech was "at least more realistic" than previously.

In a post on Twitter, he said the 27 member states remained united and ready to negotiate once Mrs May formally declared Britain was leaving by triggering Article 50 of the EU treaty.

Yesterday, Mr Tusk spoke to German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande. EU leaders are keeping their negotiating powder dry until Mrs May formally launches talks in the coming months. But officials who are preparing for the process noted that Mrs May had not spelled out many downsides for Britain's economy.

"Where is the give for all the take?" asked the Czech Republic's secretary of state for EU affairs, Tomas Prouza.

Mrs May is due to visit Ireland before the end of the month to hold formal discussion with Mr Kenny about Britain's plans to leave the EU.

The Government said it was "very aware of the potential economic opportunities that may arise for Ireland" from Mrs May's planned 'hard Brexit'.

This included shifting investment, business and job creation as well as luring EU agencies currently located in London - including the European Medicines Board and the European Banking Authority.

A Government spokesman said its priorities remained its economic and trading arrangements, the peace process and Border issues.

"In her speech, Mrs May highlighted the specific and historic relationship between Britain and Ireland," a spokesman said.

"In this context, she made clear that her priorities include maintaining the Common Travel Area and avoiding a return to a hard border, both of which are welcome. The alignment between our concerns regarding the economy and trade and the objective of the UK to have a close, and friction-free, economic and trading relationship with the EU, including with Ireland is also very important."


The Brit Prime Minister May is continuing on with her belief that Britain can have its cake and eat it too when it comes to the border between Ireland and the Six Counties. The only way I can see her reasonably achieving this whilst Ireland honours its European commitments is by drawing the border between Great Britain and the ports (air and sea) in the Six Counties. The Unionists parties get what they want (Brexit) and the Nationalist / Republican parties get to maintain an open border. Ultimately though it will be Irish Republicanism that will benefit the most from the Unionists segregating themselves from Great Britain with increased border security. It will more clearly identify the people there as second tier citizens in the eyes of the Brits (not that that hasn't always been the case) and will push the process further along the line to a United Ireland.

Couple that with an eventual possibility of Scotland repeating their referendum and leaving England and Wales and Unionists in the north will lose the main cultural connection to Britain they predicate their ethnicity and culture on.

Do you agree? Disagree? Other?

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:52 am

Nah, the UK can keep the North. It's far too shambolic for us to want it back.
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Souseiseki
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Postby Souseiseki » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:55 am

brexit will ireland and northern ireland's shit up to a ridiculous degree

whether this actually leads towards a united ireland is questionable
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Ni Cheapaim
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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:55 am

Ifreann wrote:Nah, the UK can keep the North. It's far too shambolic for us to want it back.


Fortunately our countrymen don't share your opinion.

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Souseiseki
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Postby Souseiseki » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:58 am

Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Nah, the UK can keep the North. It's far too shambolic for us to want it back.


Fortunately our countrymen don't share your opinion.


are you sure? from what i recall "it'd be nice, but practically speaking no" has been the dominant response in polls for the past decade.
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

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The European Federation-
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Postby The European Federation- » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:02 am

Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Nah, the UK can keep the North. It's far too shambolic for us to want it back.


Fortunately our countrymen don't share your opinion.


The vast majority of the Northern Irish wouldn't agree with you there. I suggest you review the polling on the question of re-unification of the "Six counties" with the south.
Note: The EF is NOT an evolution of the old EU. It was formed after the EU's collapse.https://8values.github.io/results.html? ... 1.2&s=69.3
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:04 am

Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Nah, the UK can keep the North. It's far too shambolic for us to want it back.


Fortunately our countrymen don't share your opinion.

I doubt that's either true or fortunate.
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Ni Cheapaim
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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:08 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Fortunately our countrymen don't share your opinion.


are you sure? from what i recall "it'd be nice, but practically speaking no" has been the dominant response in polls for the past decade.


http://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland ... 9-Jul2016/

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Ni Cheapaim
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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:08 am

Ifreann wrote:
Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Fortunately our countrymen don't share your opinion.

I doubt that's either true or fortunate.


http://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland ... 9-Jul2016/

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Ni Cheapaim
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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:09 am

The European Federation- wrote:
Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Fortunately our countrymen don't share your opinion.


The vast majority of the Northern Irish wouldn't agree with you there. I suggest you review the polling on the question of re-unification of the "Six counties" with the south.


I think you need to understand the context I was referring to. The poster I replied to indicated he was speaking from a position within the Irish state

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The European Federation-
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Postby The European Federation- » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:14 am

Ni Cheapaim wrote:
The European Federation- wrote:
The vast majority of the Northern Irish wouldn't agree with you there. I suggest you review the polling on the question of re-unification of the "Six counties" with the south.


I think you need to understand the context I was referring to. The poster I replied to indicated he was speaking from a position within the Irish state


If you mean you were speaking only of the public of the Republic of Ireland, then fair point. But as long as Northern Ireland doesn't agree, ROI's opinion is largely irreverent.
Note: The EF is NOT an evolution of the old EU. It was formed after the EU's collapse.https://8values.github.io/results.html? ... 1.2&s=69.3
I'm from the UK, but still a defiant Euro-federalist, but also a realist...."deep sigh"
State name: The European Federation
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Current Administration: Democratic Federalists (Center-Right Party)
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:16 am

Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Ifreann wrote:I doubt that's either true or fortunate.


http://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland ... 9-Jul2016/

"A NEW POLL has found that big majority would back a united Ireland if a referendum was held tomorrow, a new poll has found."

Tomorrow referring to the 30th of July 2016. In case you haven't noticed, it's the 18th of January 2017 and the Norn Iron Assembly has collapsed because Arlene Foster is shit(and possibly Martin McGuinness is dying and wants to leave politics with a bang).


Also, "A NEW POLL has found that [blah blah blah], a new poll has found."? Who wrote this shit and what did you pay them, The Journal?
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Ni Cheapaim
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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:18 am

The European Federation- wrote:
Ni Cheapaim wrote:
I think you need to understand the context I was referring to. The poster I replied to indicated he was speaking from a position within the Irish state


If you mean you were speaking only of the public of the Republic of Ireland, then fair point. But as long as Northern Ireland doesn't agree, ROI's opinion is largely irreverent.


The opinion of the people of the entirety of the Irish nation is relevant both north and south of the line of partition. It's the actions of Staters like those we see in this thread that have led the people stuck in an occupied region to see the British as their only chance at a future. We need to bring together the Irish people south of the border to more strongly aid the nationalist movement in the Six Counties and to make clear plans of how a return to unity would occur so that our brothers and sisters in the Six Counties can see they haven't been abandoned and that they would ultimately be more prosperous within a truly united Ireland.

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Ni Cheapaim
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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:20 am

Ifreann wrote:

"A NEW POLL has found that big majority would back a united Ireland if a referendum was held tomorrow, a new poll has found."

Tomorrow referring to the 30th of July 2016. In case you haven't noticed, it's the 18th of January 2017 and the Norn Iron Assembly has collapsed because Arlene Foster is shit(and possibly Martin McGuinness is dying and wants to leave politics with a bang).


Also, "A NEW POLL has found that [blah blah blah], a new poll has found."? Who wrote this shit and what did you pay them, The Journal?


You only accept polls taken on the day of a statement being made? Then how exactly can you assert that the people of Ireland don't want a United Ireland?

The collapse of Stormont is a positive step for the Republican movement. Martin has rightly taken a choice to step down at a time when the DUP have fully embarrassed themselves and are losing increasing support amongst the PUL people in the North. It's a chance to split the unionist vote and weaken them. It's a chance to show the people in the Six Counties that they aren't being served well by unionism, nor are they being served well at all by a British government that barely considers them an afterthought in their machinations.

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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:25 am

Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Ifreann wrote:"A NEW POLL has found that big majority would back a united Ireland if a referendum was held tomorrow, a new poll has found."

Tomorrow referring to the 30th of July 2016. In case you haven't noticed, it's the 18th of January 2017 and the Norn Iron Assembly has collapsed because Arlene Foster is shit(and possibly Martin McGuinness is dying and wants to leave politics with a bang).


Also, "A NEW POLL has found that [blah blah blah], a new poll has found."? Who wrote this shit and what did you pay them, The Journal?


You only accept polls taken on the day of a statement being made? Then how exactly can you assert that the people of Ireland don't want a United Ireland?

You're taking my comment awfully seriously.
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Ni Cheapaim
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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:27 am

Ifreann wrote:
Ni Cheapaim wrote:
You only accept polls taken on the day of a statement being made? Then how exactly can you assert that the people of Ireland don't want a United Ireland?

You're taking my comment awfully seriously.


If I see a joke i'll reply accordingly. Until such time i'll politely reply to the statements made. Was there something about the reply that's upset you so?

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The European Federation-
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Postby The European Federation- » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:27 am

Ni Cheapaim wrote:
The European Federation- wrote:
If you mean you were speaking only of the public of the Republic of Ireland, then fair point. But as long as Northern Ireland doesn't agree, ROI's opinion is largely irreverent.


The opinion of the people of the entirety of the Irish nation is relevant both north and south of the line of partition. It's the actions of Staters like those we see in this thread that have led the people stuck in an occupied region to see the British as their only chance at a future. We need to bring together the Irish people south of the border to more strongly aid the nationalist movement in the Six Counties and to make clear plans of how a return to unity would occur so that our brothers and sisters in the Six Counties can see they haven't been abandoned and that they would ultimately be more prosperous within a truly united Ireland.


You see, the language I'm seeing feels largely outdated. No offence intended in the slightest but words like "Staters" and "Six counties" just seems so out of touch. Northern Ireland as been a part of the UK for 217 years, and the border has existed between NI and the Republic of Ireland for almost a century now. In that time Northern Ireland has slowly attained its own unique identity, history, sports teams, media, etc. Frankly, this whole notion of "Occupation" is as outdated as the notion that the republic is unconstitutional. It really is time to just let it go, and if the north ever joins the republic, it would happen naturally. I don't see any serious sign of that happening. But (Shrugs) just my opinion.
Note: The EF is NOT an evolution of the old EU. It was formed after the EU's collapse.https://8values.github.io/results.html? ... 1.2&s=69.3
I'm from the UK, but still a defiant Euro-federalist, but also a realist...."deep sigh"
State name: The European Federation
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Ni Cheapaim
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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:31 am

The European Federation- wrote:
Ni Cheapaim wrote:
The opinion of the people of the entirety of the Irish nation is relevant both north and south of the line of partition. It's the actions of Staters like those we see in this thread that have led the people stuck in an occupied region to see the British as their only chance at a future. We need to bring together the Irish people south of the border to more strongly aid the nationalist movement in the Six Counties and to make clear plans of how a return to unity would occur so that our brothers and sisters in the Six Counties can see they haven't been abandoned and that they would ultimately be more prosperous within a truly united Ireland.


You see, the language I'm seeing feels largely outdated. No offence intended in the slightest but words like "Staters" and "Six counties" just seems so out of touch. Northern Ireland as been a part of the UK for 217 years, and the border has existed between NI and the Republic of Ireland for almost a century now. In that time Northern Ireland has slowly attained its own unique identity, history, sports teams, media, etc. Frankly, this whole notion of "Occupation" is as outdated as the notion that the republic is unconstitutional. It really is time to just let it go, and if the north ever joins the republic, it would happen naturally. I don't see any serious sign of that happening. But (Shrugs) just my opinion.


Northern Ireland only came into existence as a statelet in 1921 so where you're getting this belief that it has been around for 217 years I doubt will ever be truly explained. Northern Ireland isn't a continuation state of pre-Partition Ireland. It's a sectarian state created by Britain following Partition.

I think you're misconstruing a desire to bring about a natural return to the fold of those in the North with a desire to force that change. I may not like that I have to include the desires of a bigoted, oppressive, PUL community in such decisions but I respect the process is necessary to protect Irish people in the North from further oppression and bloodshed.

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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:33 am

Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Ifreann wrote:You're taking my comment awfully seriously.


If I see a joke i'll reply accordingly. Until such time i'll politely reply to the statements made. Was there something about the reply that's upset you so?

Upset? No. It's just that I wasn't asserting knowledge, merely suggesting that people probably don't much want to unite with the North, what with how it is a-shambles.
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Postby Radiatia » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:34 am

What a silly post.

The Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland has existed since 1923 - long before the EU was so much a gleam in someone's eye. Brexit has nothing to do with it. In fact it's actually the Republic of Ireland who have advocated greater border control, since 1997, again with nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.

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Ni Cheapaim
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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:35 am

Ifreann wrote:
Ni Cheapaim wrote:
If I see a joke i'll reply accordingly. Until such time i'll politely reply to the statements made. Was there something about the reply that's upset you so?

Upset? No. It's just that I wasn't asserting knowledge, merely suggesting that people probably don't much want to unite with the North, what with how it is a-shambles.


To which I provided evidence to the contrary. Is it the being challenged on that point that has you adopting an adversarial stance? I don't mind avoiding further discussion if that's the case but I was under the impression this was, among other things, a debate site.

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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:37 am

Radiatia wrote:What a silly post.

The Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland has existed since 1923 - long before the EU was so much a gleam in someone's eye. Brexit has nothing to do with it. In fact it's actually the Republic of Ireland who have advocated greater border control, since 1997, again with nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.


The CTA pre-dating EU membership does not preclude it's removal in any way nor does it prevent the need for a hard border between either the island of Ireland and GB or the Six Counties and Ireland (both of which would increase the Republican cause). Ireland has an EU responsibility to police a border between the EU and a non-member state. To avoid doing so would place us far too heavily under British influence.

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The European Federation-
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Postby The European Federation- » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:38 am

Ni Cheapaim wrote:
The European Federation- wrote:
You see, the language I'm seeing feels largely outdated. No offence intended in the slightest but words like "Staters" and "Six counties" just seems so out of touch. Northern Ireland as been a part of the UK for 217 years, and the border has existed between NI and the Republic of Ireland for almost a century now. In that time Northern Ireland has slowly attained its own unique identity, history, sports teams, media, etc. Frankly, this whole notion of "Occupation" is as outdated as the notion that the republic is unconstitutional. It really is time to just let it go, and if the north ever joins the republic, it would happen naturally. I don't see any serious sign of that happening. But (Shrugs) just my opinion.


Northern Ireland only came into existence as a statelet in 1921 so where you're getting this belief that it has been around for 217 years I doubt will ever be truly explained. Northern Ireland isn't a continuation state of pre-Partition Ireland. It's a sectarian state created by Britain following Partition.

I think you're misconstruing a desire to bring about a natural return to the fold of those in the North with a desire to force that change. I may not like that I have to include the desires of a bigoted, oppressive, PUL community in such decisions but I respect the process is necessary to protect Irish people in the North from further oppression and bloodshed.


No I was not implying Northern Ireland the entity is 217 years old. I was referring to the land and the people living on it. My point is, being separated for very long periods of time and being exposed to different social-cultural-economic, and political systems for that period leds to very different characters and societies, even if they may look similar. So that natural return as you put it, in my eyes, may not be so natural any more. Still, I suppose only time will tell. Rationally though, I just don't see it happening.
Note: The EF is NOT an evolution of the old EU. It was formed after the EU's collapse.https://8values.github.io/results.html? ... 1.2&s=69.3
I'm from the UK, but still a defiant Euro-federalist, but also a realist...."deep sigh"
State name: The European Federation
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Leaders: Federal President Heinz Diederich (Lux), EF Consul Caleb Reynes (UK), Foreign Affairs Minister Fredric Richter (Ger)
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Ni Cheapaim
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Postby Ni Cheapaim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:40 am

The European Federation- wrote:
Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Northern Ireland only came into existence as a statelet in 1921 so where you're getting this belief that it has been around for 217 years I doubt will ever be truly explained. Northern Ireland isn't a continuation state of pre-Partition Ireland. It's a sectarian state created by Britain following Partition.

I think you're misconstruing a desire to bring about a natural return to the fold of those in the North with a desire to force that change. I may not like that I have to include the desires of a bigoted, oppressive, PUL community in such decisions but I respect the process is necessary to protect Irish people in the North from further oppression and bloodshed.


No I was not implying Northern Ireland the entity is 217 years old. I was referring to the land and the people living on it. My point is, being separated for very long periods of time and being exposed to different social-cultural-economic, and political systems for that period leds to very different characters and societies, even if they may look similar. So that natural return as you put it, in my eyes, may not be so natural any more. Still, I suppose only time will tell. Rationally though, I just don't see it happening.


Yes it led to a stronger divide between the PUL and Catholic + Nationalist communities due to the sectarian structure of government and society in the North with them developing along completely separate cultural lines in that period. The border between the North and the rest of Ireland is a much weaker barrier to culture than the barrier the PUL lot created for themselves with their paranoia and fear of the Catholic minority.

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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:41 am

Ni Cheapaim wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Upset? No. It's just that I wasn't asserting knowledge, merely suggesting that people probably don't much want to unite with the North, what with how it is a-shambles.


To which I provided evidence to the contrary. Is it the being challenged on that point that has you adopting an adversarial stance? I don't mind avoiding further discussion if that's the case but I was under the impression this was, among other things, a debate site.

You provided a survey from several months ago when my suggestion was based on recent events.
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