NationStates

San Marlindo wrote:

Engleberg wrote:Russia's going to do something because Russia ALWAYS does something to spite the West.

But we must prevent them from reestablishing the USSR - the world does not want or need that hellhole back. Other than that, there is a chance that Russia will try to do what it did in Ukraine with a different Eastern European nation. Hell, they might even use Königsberg (Kaliningrad is bullshit) as a FOB if they really wanted to go after one of them.

Putin once said whoever misses the USSR has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no head.

Give him some credit.

Yes, Russia isn't going communist again if that's what people are worried about. Putin is not a communist (more a Right wing oligarch/state capitalist, I think). His USSR nostalgia is probably more down to missing the days when Russia was a power rivalling the US- he is a nationalist and an imperialist, but not a communist.

San Marlindo wrote:

Engleberg wrote:Russia's going to do something because Russia ALWAYS does something to spite the West.

But we must prevent them from reestablishing the USSR - the world does not want or need that hellhole back. Other than that, there is a chance that Russia will try to do what it did in Ukraine with a different Eastern European nation. Hell, they might even use Königsberg (Kaliningrad is bullshit) as a FOB if they really wanted to go after one of them.

Putin once said whoever misses the USSR has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no head.

Give him some credit.

He said that because the USSR was Communist.

And modern Russia does want to expand in Europe, it's vital to their interests. Annexing eastern Europe would be extremely beneficial for a country with so many geographic disadvantages. Putin probably wants to create an Imperialist Eurasian entity that will influence half of Europe but they can't do that, so they try to undermine the West instead.

Valaran wrote:

Uxupox wrote:
Not really. Estonia would completely abandon any sort of conventional warfare method and pursue guerrilla warfare akin to that of the Chechens (With probably greater defensive results).

Except that Estonia is a relatively small and featureless country, without much in the way of sufficient terrain (or large urban centres) from which to conduct any significant resistance. It hasn't got a large population either. Russia can easily flood the country with troops. To compare: Chechnya is mountainous, has porous borders (allowing the easy movement of supporters and arms) and had greater experience at resistance fighting. And Chechnya got crushed. To assume that Russia wouldn't simply unleash a Grozny (which they've since refined) on Tallinn or other areas of resistance would be naive, and those operations were pretty successful.

Resistance, would conceptually make more sense if there was a notion that NATO would intervene and later liberate the country, but the point about Russia swamping the country is that it present NATO with a dilemma (or sending massive forces to fight a war that could dangerously escalate or to back off). At no level does guerrilla fighting reduce the de facto state of ground; guerrilla fighting takes time to become effective. Hence why the simple fact of Russia swamping Estonia is sufficient to create a fait accompli, a fact that Estonian resistance (which is unlikely to have much success) would not change.

And yes, it would take about 36 hours.

War games are a completely irrelevant to portray realistic events. There was once a war game that North Korean overran both South Korean and american forces in the Korean region and there was also one in where Iran completely demolished the naval forces of the United States (Alone mind you). They are not realistic portrayals but merely theories that have not been put to action.

Uxupox wrote:War games are a completely irrelevant to portray realistic events.

They can't compensate for all the variables of reality, but they do give insights. No one expects a tank to perform in combat exactly like how its tests indicate, but the tests are useful as a basic plotting point. Also, for the record, RAND are pretty respected at this; they aren't random hacks redrafting lanchester laws into basic equations. If your only criticism is that 'this is unreal because all wargames are unreal' then I don't find your counterpoint at all convincing, not least since you've just made a prediction of how combat would play out yourself (the Estonian will be great at guerrilla warfare!), but with decidedly less reasoning or evidence in support of it.

Valaran wrote:

Uxupox wrote:War games are a completely irrelevant to portray realistic events.

They can't compensate for all the variables of reality, but they do give insights. No one expects a tank to perform in combat exactly like how its tests indicate, but the tests are useful as a basic plotting point. Also, for the record, RAND are pretty respected at this; they aren't random hacks redrafting lanchester laws into basic equations. If your only criticism is that 'this is unreal because all wargames are unreal' then I don't find your counterpoint at all convincing, not least since you've just made a prediction of how combat would play out yourself (the Estonian will be great at guerrilla warfare!), but with decidedly less reasoning or evidence in support of it.

There is already a trend of failure following the Russian forces against any type of non-conventional warfare such as the Chechen wars and the war in Afghanistan.

And heck doing a gloss overview at what RAND exactly states the airlifting of the 82nd ALL AMERICAN division and the 173rd Airborne stationed in Italy could counter this (Not to mention that even RAND does not mention the mechanized infantry and airborne infantry currently stationed in Germany nor the depot stationed at the Netherlands that could play a key role in any sort of intervention in the Baltic's).

Thermodolia wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:Yes they will. And when the time comes, I stand behind the Russian claims. Russia should unify Eastern Europe, its for the greater good. We need a counterbalance against the USA's imperialism.

So you are for letting nations and there people get invaded and taken over by something they don't want? Also last I checked the US didn't invade half of Ukraine

Ukraine rightfully belongs to the Russian Empire. This has always been the case historically. I see nothing wrong with Russia re-exerting its historical sphere of influence.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Thermodolia wrote:So you are for letting nations and there people get invaded and taken over by something they don't want? Also last I checked the US didn't invade half of Ukraine

Ukraine rightfully belongs to the Russian Empire. This has always been the case historically. I see nothing wrong with Russia re-exerting its historical sphere of influence.

What do you mean rightfully belongs to Russia?

Prediction: Russia may or may not take up a chunk or all of Ukraine. What's anyone going to do about it? Nothing. Not even Ukrainians will do much about it, considering how little loyalty they have to Poroshenko and company.

Russia is not going to invade the Baltics unless we see some drastic changes, which I highly doubt will occur. Earlier the Baltics were needed as a corridor to Kaliningrad. But then we invented these things called planes and NATO used them to get past the Berlin Blockade. The Baltics serve no logistics function, no economic function, no demographic function, there's absolutely no reason to annex the Baltics. The cost is loss of trade with the EU - which is a high cost. If you see a ring for $10,000 that you don't need, and you're not a millionaire, are you going to buy it just to spite some friends, when you can spend that $10k on doing something your truly need and love? Spiting a punk or having the sex of your life - I mean c'mon, is that even a hard call?

Russia is not going to invade Poland. Again, we've been over this. Poland is very easy to conquer, and very hard to digest. Not worth it. Poland is not worth messing up Russia's digestive tract. And Poland has a History of doing that. Bad Poland. For that, you cannot into space

Russia is also not planning to invade many other countries.

Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:

Oil exporting People wrote:
For NATO? Yes. The Russian Army is far superior to anything the Europeans can throw at it, and does maintain some sizable advantages over the US (Namely, tank quality and ability to more rapidly bring their's into play).

This is also academic, however, because the Russians have no desire nor reason to invade Eastern Europe.

Oh no, NATO would wipe the Russian Army from the history books it would be so clean. The Russian military has been working nearly ten years just to keep their armed forces supplied, trained, following orders, not mutinying, and not selling off military items. Sort of the point of this.

The US in particular could take down Russia on its own, simply by aligning itself with the oligarchs and funding the opposition.

Yeah, that's not working at all. As for the Russian Armed Forces being incompetent - so many said that throughout History, and so many ended up being defeated after invading Russia...

Thermodolia wrote:

Uxupox wrote:
I'd rather not try though. The Germans were completely optimistic in their regards for military success in 1941 but got completely smashed by a combination of Soviet ingenuity, weather and some trash German civilian leaders (Hitler in particular).

Ya that was mainly Hitler's doing. If i had been in his shoes i wouldn't have stopped until I reach Moskva

Hitler reached Moscow. And then got pwnd.

Populi-Terrae wrote:

Wiepolskie wrote:Russia did not take territory from Georgia, and Crimea voted to become part of Russia. Russia does not want to invade Eastern Europe or restore the USSR (or at least the 1989 borders). Most of Europe is stacked against them if they did, because NATO, in practice, is an inherently anti-Russian organization. Trump is right when he says its failing.

Crimea only voted for it after it was invaded by Russian paramilitary forces. The referendum was held without the permission of the central government in Kiev. Ergo, the referendum was illegal and the result was rigged.

There's no proof that the result was rigged. Once again - polls, conducted by Western Polling Agencies, show that the Result of the Election reflected the Will of the Crimean People. Just because a couple of drunk Oligarchs said something, doesn't make anything "rigged".

Wiepolskie wrote:If the Donbass Republics want to join Russia, or at least secede from Ukraine, it is well within their right to do so. A majority of them speak Russian, and feel more at home in Russia.

I have no issues with that.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Eastern European countries start pursuing their own nuclear deterrents, because God knows they can't count on the US any more.

And where would they get the funds for nuclear research?

The Conez Imperium wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ukraine rightfully belongs to the Russian Empire. This has always been the case historically. I see nothing wrong with Russia re-exerting its historical sphere of influence.

What do you mean rightfully belongs to Russia?

He said "rightfully belongs to the Russian Empire" - you do know how Ukraine was created, right?



See the part in 1654? That was annexed by the Russian Empire. The part between 1654 and 1917 was added to Ukraine by the Russian Empire. And even then it was split into Governorates. The part that says "added in 1922" hasn't really been part of Ukraine, not ever. Ditto for the parts in 1939 and 1954. The latter's Crimea. Russia can just waltz in and take the 1922 part, and no one would really do much. History matters. Here's a map of the Russian Empire:



I see Poland. I see Finland. Do you see Ukraine?

I fucking hope not, though the majority of sabre rattling seems to be coming from the US and NATO.

Shofercia wrote:Prediction: Russia may or may not take up a chunk or all of Ukraine. What's anyone going to do about it? Nothing. Not even Ukrainians will do much about it, considering how little loyalty they have to Poroshenko and company.

Russia is not going to invade the Baltics unless we see some drastic changes, which I highly doubt will occur. Earlier the Baltics were needed as a corridor to Kaliningrad. But then we invented these things called planes and NATO used them to get past the Berlin Blockade. The Baltics serve no logistics function, no economic function, no demographic function, there's absolutely no reason to annex the Baltics. The cost is loss of trade with the EU - which is a high cost. If you see a ring for $10,000 that you don't need, and you're not a millionaire, are you going to buy it just to spite some friends, when you can spend that $10k on doing something your truly need and love? Spiting a punk or having the sex of your life - I mean c'mon, is that even a hard call?

Russia is not going to invade Poland. Again, we've been over this. Poland is very easy to conquer, and very hard to digest. Not worth it. Poland is not worth messing up Russia's digestive tract. And Poland has a History of doing that. Bad Poland. For that, you cannot into space

Russia is also not planning to invade many other countries.

Poland is not easy to conquer.

The problem with that is that no matter how much Trump hates NATO, congress will literally tell him to fuck off if the Russians decide that all of europe belongs to it.

Additionally, while the Russian Military is quite powerful (second most, I think), it only takes a United Europe to push them off. Russia will find itself overextended by the time it reaches warsaw or germany, and that's where a revitalized German/French/British military, along with Italy and Turkey, as well as all the troops that fled the first countries to be invaded, will excel in combat. Whether or not the United States directly intervenes, European NATO will have direct financial support from not only Canada and the United States, but also nations like South Korea, Japan, and very many other nations with strong anti-russian sentiments. Additionally, the power of the British Commonwealth will come into play, as India won't be happy if Russia decides to go on a invasion streak, and South Africa, while maybe not being able to support directly militarily, will support monetarily.

There is NO nation on earth that can suddenly go on an offencive of that scale that will not meet a global coalition against it. Not Russia. Not China. Not the United States.

Uxupox wrote:Poland is not easy to conquer.

Countries in general aren't easy to conquer during and/or after you just had a Civil War.

Roskian Federation wrote:The problem with that is that no matter how much Trump hates NATO, congress will literally tell him to fuck off if the Russians decide that all of europe belongs to it.

Additionally, while the Russian Military is quite powerful (second most, I think), it only takes a United Europe to push them off. Russia will find itself overextended by the time it reaches warsaw or germany, and that's where a revitalized German/French/British military, along with Italy and Turkey, as well as all the troops that fled the first countries to be invaded, will excel in combat. Whether or not the United States directly intervenes, European NATO will have direct financial support from not only Canada and the United States, but also nations like South Korea, Japan, and very many other nations with strong anti-russian sentiments. Additionally, the power of the British Commonwealth will come into play, as India won't be happy if Russia decides to go on a invasion streak, and South Africa, while maybe not being able to support directly militarily, will support monetarily.

There is NO nation on earth that can suddenly go on an offencive of that scale that will not meet a global coalition against it. Not Russia. Not China. Not the United States.

Emphasis mine, and BINGO! That's why all this saber rattling is pointless. We can argue whether or not Turkey, India, South Africa, etc, will take sides, but to invade European countries, even the ones that are ran semi-competently, would be an impossible feat for any country. The invasion of the Baltics would stop Russia's economy from growing, and that, alone, serves as a massive deterrent. There are numerous other deterrents as well, but that's the biggest one. That's partially why I think that Lithuania is led by an idiot; instead of promoting trade with Russia, and building up said deterrent, she wants to cut trade with Russia, and remove said deterrent.

Yes and it's time for the Wehrmacht to return.

Shofercia wrote:

Uxupox wrote:Poland is not easy to conquer.

Countries in general aren't easy to conquer during and/or after you just had a Civil War.

Roskian Federation wrote:The problem with that is that no matter how much Trump hates NATO, congress will literally tell him to fuck off if the Russians decide that all of europe belongs to it.

Additionally, while the Russian Military is quite powerful (second most, I think), it only takes a United Europe to push them off. Russia will find itself overextended by the time it reaches warsaw or germany, and that's where a revitalized German/French/British military, along with Italy and Turkey, as well as all the troops that fled the first countries to be invaded, will excel in combat. Whether or not the United States directly intervenes, European NATO will have direct financial support from not only Canada and the United States, but also nations like South Korea, Japan, and very many other nations with strong anti-russian sentiments. Additionally, the power of the British Commonwealth will come into play, as India won't be happy if Russia decides to go on a invasion streak, and South Africa, while maybe not being able to support directly militarily, will support monetarily.

There is NO nation on earth that can suddenly go on an offencive of that scale that will not meet a global coalition against it. Not Russia. Not China. Not the United States.

Emphasis mine, and BINGO! That's why all this saber rattling is pointless. We can argue whether or not Turkey, India, South Africa, etc, will take sides, but to invade European countries, even the ones that are ran semi-competently, would be an impossible feat for any country. The invasion of the Baltics would stop Russia's economy from growing, and that, alone, serves as a massive deterrent. There are numerous other deterrents as well, but that's the biggest one. That's partially why I think that Lithuania is led by an idiot; instead of promoting trade with Russia, and building up said deterrent, she wants to cut trade with Russia, and remove said deterrent.

Then they shouldn't have being dumb asses and invaded Poland after their recent disastrous civil war.

Uxupox wrote:Then they shouldn't have being dumb asses and invaded Poland after their recent disastrous civil war.

Because we all know that Governments during Civil Wars and Revolutions only make intelligent decisions, like the guillotine... (yes, I'm being sarcastic)

Neuwland wrote:Yes and it's time for the Wehrmacht to return.

if the wehrmacht returns, I'm gonna point them to America, where America will simply proceed to outclass them in literally every single fucking level imaginable, and then will laugh as the fascists are crushed mercilessly by a global and international movement made of conservatives and liberals alike.

Roskian Federation wrote:

Neuwland wrote:Yes and it's time for the Wehrmacht to return.

if the wehrmacht returns, I'm gonna point them to America, where America will simply proceed to outclass them in literally every single fucking level imaginable, and then will laugh as the fascists are crushed mercilessly by a global and international movement made of conservatives and liberals alike.

Do want a medal for posting a rant about how you hate Americans and people who have a superior ideology to Communism?

Neuwland wrote:Yes and it's time for the Wehrmacht to return.

*Imperial German Military

(Deutsches Heer, Kaiserliche-Marine, and Luftstreitkräfte)

Engleberg wrote:

Neuwland wrote:Yes and it's time for the Wehrmacht to return.

*Imperial German Military

(Deutsches Heer, Kaiserliche-Marine, and Luftstreitkräfte)

Sure why not? Just as long as they vanquish Russia.

Neuwland wrote:

Engleberg wrote:
*Imperial German Military

(Deutsches Heer, Kaiserliche-Marine, and Luftstreitkräfte)

Sure why not? Just as long as they vanquish Russia.

And this time actually do it right; like WWI...but without the Bolsheviks.

Engleberg wrote:

Neuwland wrote:Sure why not? Just as long as they vanquish Russia.

And this time actually do it right; like WWI...but without the Bolsheviks.

Wipe them all out (any resistance), then divide and conquer the land.

Likely Putin seems to think Trump will let his aggression go and well he might be right.

greed and death wrote:Likely Putin seems to think Trump will let his aggression go and well he might be right.

Prime example of how America lost it's sovereignty, before you know it we'll have Russian drones flying over us bombing us and Trump will says it's okay because we are dissidents.

Neuwland wrote:

greed and death wrote:Likely Putin seems to think Trump will let his aggression go and well he might be right.

Prime example of how America lost it's sovereignty, before you know it we'll have Russian drones flying over us bombing us and Trump will says it's okay because we are dissidents.

I'm guessing Putin also has control of Congress and the Supreme Court, perhaps Ginsburg has been a Putin plant all this time...