Who is an American? Who is French? Who is English?

[Galloism]

This came up in another thread, and I thought it was worth a discussion.

Who is an American? No, I don't mean who is an American that's alive today. I mean, looking historically, who is an American? For that matter, who is French? Who is British?

First, I'm going to focus on American, then we'll talk about the others. Feel free to talk about other nations as well - it's all on the table.

First, a little history:

American, as a term, started in the mid 1600s, and original referred mostly to native Americans, but then gradually started to refer to the citizens of British America. Were they Americans at this time?

The Second Continental Congress adopted the articles of confederation in 1777, which referred specifically to this nation as "The United States of America". Did this make the citizens thereof Americans at this time?

But wait, it wasn't ratified by the states until 1781. Maybe that's the point when Americans came into existence.

But wait, the constitution superseded that 1789. Does this mean that is the point that people become real Americans?

There's problematic arguments with all these points, but to me the later ones are more problematic than the prior ones, for a couple of reasons:

If you argue that Americans before 1789 are not real Americans, no one who died in the revolutionary war was a real american. If you argue it's 1781 (when the articles were ratified) no one who died for the first few years of the war is a real American. From a linguistic standpoint, excluding people who fought for the existence of the country from being included as part of the people from that country is inexcusable.

Furthermore, adopting such a view would seem to make anyone who died before 1958 in France not French, nor are the people who died before William the Conqueror took over England actually British (or, conversely, makes all the current English actually Normans).


Conversely, choosing the earliest point (mid 1600s), would sweep up a lot of people who really considered themselves English as Americans, and that's probably not a fair assessment either.


Now, that's not all quite the same, as the American experiment arises from British Colonial rule, unlike France and England which controlled parts of each other at various times throughout history, and shifted back and forth a lot (hence the joke, that, if you're the King of England, and you're not sure what to do, invade France).

What say ye NSG? Who is an American? Where's that line?

[Infected Mushroom]

An American is someone who has a an American passport and got the American passport legally (ex not as a result of entering the country illegally and conning their way to get it, in which case it should be voided).

[Galloism]

An American is someone who has a an American passport and got the American passport legally (ex not as a result of entering the country illegally and conning their way to get it, in which it should be voided).

So 2/3 of people who are citizens of America are not real Americans because they don't have a passport?

[Farnhamia]

An American is someone who has a an American passport and got the American passport legally (ex not as a result of entering the country illegally and conning their way to get it, in which it should be voided).

So 2/3 of people who are citizens of America are not real Americans because they don't have a passport?

What if you had one but it lapsed?

[Infected Mushroom]

An American is someone who has a an American passport and got the American passport legally (ex not as a result of entering the country illegally and conning their way to get it, in which it should be voided).

So 2/3 of people who are citizens of America are not real Americans because they don't have a passport?

or some kind of official American paper

what do you mean by 2/3 ?

[Infected Mushroom]

So 2/3 of people who are citizens of America are not real Americans because they don't have a passport?

What if you had one but it lapsed?

you're still American but you've got to renew it under the law

[Galloism]

So 2/3 of people who are citizens of America are not real Americans because they don't have a passport?

or some kind of official American paper

what do you mean by 2/3 ?

64% of Americans do not have a passport. That is almost 2/3.

Define "official American paper".

[Farnhamia]

What if you had one but it lapsed?

you're still American but you've got to renew it under the law

No, not really, not if I don't travel abroad.

[Galloism]

So 2/3 of people who are citizens of America are not real Americans because they don't have a passport?

What if you had one but it lapsed?

Then you are a TRAITOR!

[Farnhamia]

What if you had one but it lapsed?

Then you are a TRAITOR!

You won't turn me in, I know things about you.

But I digress in a silly manner ... Sorry.

[Galloism]

Then you are a TRAITOR!

You won't turn me in, I know things about you.

But I digress in a silly manner ... Sorry.

Well, and the thread was really about Americans historically. When did Americans become Americans, essentially.

[Etheriland]

I think people become Americans when they settle permanently in America, or if they are born in America. Same with any other place.

[The New Fandom Republic]

I'd say 50 years after the mayflower landed on America's shore.

[The Floridian Republic]

I'd say anyone whose primary residence was in the 13 colonies of European descent, they were 'Americans' in a strict sense. Perhaps the African-American slaves could be considered Americans after a generation of living in geographic area of the United States or the preceding colonies.

In previous centuries, the concept of 'citizenship' was very new, and infact did not come about until the French revolution as far as i'm aware. After the Constitution was ratified in 1788, i'd say that 'citizenship' or who was an American was defined by the U.S. government by law. Under that definition 'negroes' were not considered citizens until the passage of the 14th amendment providing birthright citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil under U.S. jurisdiction.

I'd say the modern definition, legally, would be anyone with Citizenship under U.S. law.

Morally, in my opinion, an American is someone who is loyal to the Country, the Constitution, believes in the principles of the Bill of Rights and the declaration of independence, Speaks English, has Citizenship and has integrated into our society and culture. I think there is an exception for illegal immigrant children who are raised in the United States from the age of 3 and before to adulthood.

[Farnhamia]

I think people become Americans when they settle permanently in America, or if they are born in America. Same with any other place.

Yes, now, but when is the point in history that you can start calling people Americans?

[Farnhamia]

I'd say 50 years after the mayflower landed on America's shore.

So the people at Jamestown, Virginia, are SOL?

[The Floridian Republic]

I think people become Americans when they settle permanently in America, or if they are born in America. Same with any other place.

Yes, now, but when is the point in history that you can start calling people Americans?

Americans before the Country was founded in 1788, would probably be any European settler permanently resident in the 13 colonies or born in the 13 colonies.

[Grave_n_idle]

If you argue that Americans before 1789 are not real Americans, no one who died in the revolutionary war was a real american. If you argue it's 1781 (when the articles were ratified) no one who died for the first few years of the war is a real American. From a linguistic standpoint, excluding people who fought for the existence of the country from being included as part of the people from that country is inexcusable.

I disagree.

Indeed, I think it makes the whole thing more noble - the people who fought for the ideal and never saw it achieved.

Calling them 'American' seems much like an honorary degree. You could do it, but as an act of recognition.

[The New Fandom Republic]

I'd say 50 years after the mayflower landed on America's shore.

So the people at Jamestown, Virginia, are SOL?

What's SOL? Also Jamestown kinda disappeared so yeah.

[The Floridian Republic]

I think considering oneself an 'American' is also a matter of political identification as much as anything else. Before the country was founded, the idea of a separate 'American' identity didn't come until the 18th century for the most part. So i'd say during the 17th century, 'Americans' were really just English settlers at that point, without an identity separate from that of the United Kingdom. I think a lot of that had to do with the fact the colonies, in the beginning, were still very dependent on the United Kingdom for support and continued existence. When the colonies became self-sufficient, i'd say that's when the idea of a separate 'American' identity began to form.

[Galloism]

If you argue that Americans before 1789 are not real Americans, no one who died in the revolutionary war was a real american. If you argue it's 1781 (when the articles were ratified) no one who died for the first few years of the war is a real American. From a linguistic standpoint, excluding people who fought for the existence of the country from being included as part of the people from that country is inexcusable.

I disagree.

Indeed, I think it makes the whole thing more noble - the people who fought for the ideal and never saw it achieved.

Calling them 'American' seems much like an honorary degree. You could do it, but as an act of recognition.

This is an interesting notion, but seems unusually exclusionary.

After all, did the colonies not have an active government doing the job of governing since around 1776, organized into a union of self-governing states?

The English disputed it, of course, but that doesn't mean the government of the United States was not effectively in existence.

[The Twelve Isles]

So 2/3 of people who are citizens of America are not real Americans because they don't have a passport?

or some kind of official American paper

what do you mean by 2/3 ?

It means that most Americans dont have a passport, because most Americans arent leaving the country and dont need one.

Anyways, on to my opinions. As I am not French, or British, I dont really have anything to say on what makes you a member of those nations. But, I believe that to be an american all you have to do is become a citizen. This is a country that was built by immigrants, the Irish in New England, the Germans in the Rust Belt, the Chinese in California, the Mexicans in the Southwest, and so on. In my opinion, all of these people are American, and it still holds true today. If you come to this country seeking the American Dream, and you obtain citizenship because you want to be part of this nation, than you should have every right to get that citizenship, and all of the rights that come with it, and you should be able to call yourself an american without anyone trying to tell you otherwise.

And if you are born in this country, then the only thing that gives you is a head start on getting to call yourself an american. You are lucky enough to be born into this nation, and you should have every right to say you are from here. No matter who your parents are, no matter if they were born here, or if they emigrated, you are an american by law if you are born in this country and you should feel proud to be able to call yourself that, no matter what anyone tries to tell you.

In short, I feel that call oneself an american, all you should have to do is have citizenship, and believe that you are american, no matter how you got to be a part of this country.

[Farnhamia]

So the people at Jamestown, Virginia, are SOL?

What's SOL? Also Jamestown kinda disappeared so yeah.

SOL is "shit out of luck."

It didn't kinda disappear until the 1700s. From 161 to 1699 it was the capital of Virginia Colony.

[The New Fandom Republic]

I think considering oneself an 'American' is also a matter of political identification as much as anything else. Before the country was founded, the idea of a separate 'American' identity didn't come until the 18th century for the most part. So i'd say during the 17th century, 'Americans' were really just English settlers at that point, without an identity separate from that of the United Kingdom. I think a lot of that had to do with the fact the colonies, in the beginning, were still very dependent on the United Kingdom for support and continued existence. When the colonies became self-sufficient, i'd say that's when the idea of a separate 'American' identity began to form.

As a American,that's pretty fair.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I would argue that in order to be considered American, French, English or any-other, one would have to be born within a certain nation. Of course, there are major flaws to this, as of now it is the only thing I can think of off the top of my head.