Trump MAGAThread III: Steak, Vodka, Casinos, and America

[Lady Scylla]

I believe our role in trying to curb Russian involvement was by subsidizing Syrian rebels in the region with the hopes that Assad would be toppled.

well no

we tried to get fighters who would only target isis. turns out they all wanted to target assad as well as isis. that's why we spent ....many millions of dollars.. and only got 5 men trained.

And they were the best men. Good men. -- Donald Trump

[Ifreann]

It is in the interests of all people to refuse to accept as legitimate the acquisition of territory by force. I'm sure a history buff like yourself doesn't need any explanation as to why.

The whole southern and western US was taken by force. Worked out OK.

Not for all the people who died in the process.

[Uxupox]

How about facts and not assumptions?

By the time facts set in it'll most likely be too late. No treaties signed, but damn if this doesn't look and rhyme an awful lot like the fiasco called the Munich Agreement.

The Munich Agreement was an European fiasco that turned out a global one because of the Europeans powers refusal to adhere by their own clauses and let Germany do whatever it pleased.

How about facts and not assumptions?

there are no facts about the future. its always assumptions.

One can discern certain possibilities and dismiss outright fallacies with very well known groups such as OEWatch, the initiative and the likes.

[Seraven]

Plus this ban wouldn't have prevented Boston.

ya but its relevant because the tsarnaev brother came from Russia/Chechnya.

ooops that isn't on the ban list

but dammit we can still keep out those Syrian women and children fleeing certain death!

nor americans ban the ones who funded.

[Lady Scylla]

The whole southern and western US was taken by force. Worked out OK.

Not for all the people who died in the process.

Mexican-Americans exist. Clearly Mexico should reclaim the Southwest. >.>

[Ashmoria]

well no

we tried to get fighters who would only target isis. turns out they all wanted to target assad as well as isis. that's why we spent ....many millions of dollars.. and only got 5 men trained.

And they were the best men. Good men. -- Donald Trump

the Syria part of our middle east policy was an unmitigated failure. we have a handle on defeating ISIS but in Syria all we have done is destroy a country (not that its all us by any means) while not succeeding in toppling the government.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Not for all the people who died in the process.

Mexican-Americans exist. Clearly Mexico should reclaim the Southwest. >.>

I mean, they could, but would it be wise?

[Uxupox]

I believe our role in trying to curb Russian involvement was by subsidizing Syrian rebels in the region with the hopes that Assad would be toppled.

well no

we tried to get fighters who would only target isis. turns out they all wanted to target assad as well as isis. that's why we spent ....many millions of dollars.. and only got 5 men trained.

It was a disaster and it also allowed some militants that we trained at the end to either to join either Assad or ISIS forces.

[Indo-European Union]

The whole southern and western US was taken by force. Worked out OK.

Not for all the people who died in the process.

You started talking about maximising legitimacy, now minimising deaths in the short term. Which is it? The way to minimise deaths in the short term is pretty much always to accept the status quo.

[Cymrea]

Russia has formally charged 2 former security officials and a top cybersecurity expert with treason.

Charged for hacking...or for letting Americans catch them hacking?

[Lady Scylla]

By the time facts set in it'll most likely be too late. No treaties signed, but damn if this doesn't look and rhyme an awful lot like the fiasco called the Munich Agreement.

The Munich Agreement was an European fiasco that turned out a global one because of the Europeans powers refusal to adhere by their own clauses and let Germany do whatever it pleased.

there are no facts about the future. its always assumptions.

One can discern certain possibilities and dismiss outright fallacies with very well known groups such as OEWatch, the initiative and the likes.

Dismiss nothing of the future. If it seems improbable, it is only less probable.

[Seraven]

Russia has formally charged 2 former security officials and a top cybersecurity expert with treason.

Charged for hacking...or for letting Americans catch them hacking?

Latter, perhaps?

[Lady Scylla]

And they were the best men. Good men. -- Donald Trump

the Syria part of our middle east policy was an unmitigated failure. we have a handle on defeating ISIS but in Syria all we have done is destroy a country (not that its all us by any means) while not succeeding in toppling the government.

Proxy-conflicts just never seem to get old.

[Salandriagado]

You appear to be failing to understand what "evidence" is. It is not a function of how many url tags you have in your post. I note that you have still failed to provide any evidence or argument in support of your claim.

Evidence can be as simple as pointing to an historical event. I pointed to Great Britain 1700-1900. It was, indeed, close to stateless for a lot of that time, certainly for economic purpose, and while we can quibble about whether it was perfect, it was the leading state of its day, had a high level of culture, was politically stable, and prosperous by the technological standards of its time. So to the question of whether a state without economic regulation can work - albeit not whether it's the very best way to organise a state - the example of GB clearly shows the answer is "yes".

My opponents gave no evidence at all.

It was utterly and completely disastrous on an economic level, which is what we're discussing here. And calling it "essentially stateless" is hopelessly inaccurate.

[Gauthier]

Russia has formally charged 2 former security officials and a top cybersecurity expert with treason.

Charged for hacking...or for letting Americans catch them hacking?

Probably because they somehow contributed to Watersportsgate.

[Ashmoria]

ya but its relevant because the tsarnaev brother came from Russia/Chechnya.

ooops that isn't on the ban list

but dammit we can still keep out those Syrian women and children fleeing certain death!

nor americans ban the ones who funded.

I think you need a fuller sentence than that if I am to know what point you are making.

[Cymrea]

Russia has formally charged 2 former security officials and a top cybersecurity expert with treason.

Charged for hacking...or for letting Americans catch them hacking?

Latter, perhaps?

This appears to support that.

[Community Values]

Russians taking eastern Ukraine makes them feel confident about taking more land. Why do we want Russia, with a kleptocratic president that's essentially a dictator, to take more land and feel confident that he can war and pillage whatever he wants?

At the very least, America and the EU (if the EU stops their love of Russian fuel) need to put sanctions on Russia.

EDIT: America loves Saudi oil, not Russian oil.

He's invading a bit of land that contains Russians. It's like if the US invaded Australia in response to a Chinese-backed coup and people in China started screaming "but what if they conquer Mongolia next?!!".

Naw, it'd be more like Germany declaring that the Sudetenland is their's because there's a sizable German minority there, and then Chamberlain appeasing them and calling it "Peace in our time".

But duh, Russia will obviously stop its warmongering ways right after it takes eastern Ukraine... And Georgia... And Eastern Latvia... And the Russian minorities in Belarus.

[Lady Scylla]

Not for all the people who died in the process.

You started talking about maximising legitimacy, now minimising deaths in the short term. Which is it? The way to minimise deaths in the short term is pretty much always to accept the status quo.

Unless the status quo is currently encompassed by such deaths. I doubt anyone in Syria thinks that the current state of affairs is one they'd like to continually exist.

[Indo-European Union]

Evidence can be as simple as pointing to an historical event. I pointed to Great Britain 1700-1900. It was, indeed, close to stateless for a lot of that time, certainly for economic purpose, and while we can quibble about whether it was perfect, it was the leading state of its day, had a high level of culture, was politically stable, and prosperous by the technological standards of its time. So to the question of whether a state without economic regulation can work - albeit not whether it's the very best way to organise a state - the example of GB clearly shows the answer is "yes".

My opponents gave no evidence at all.

It was utterly and completely disastrous on an economic level, which is what we're discussing here. And calling it "essentially stateless" is hopelessly inaccurate.

I would ordinarily be inclined to disbelieve those claims, but since you carefully and meticulously supported them with detailed argument and primary source references, I cannot do so, and have been fully persuaded to your point of view. Well played, sir.

[Ashmoria]

well no

we tried to get fighters who would only target isis. turns out they all wanted to target assad as well as isis. that's why we spent ....many millions of dollars.. and only got 5 men trained.

It was a disaster and it also allowed some militants that we trained at the end to either to join either Assad or ISIS forces.

it was a total waste of time, money and effort.

[Salandriagado]

It was utterly and completely disastrous on an economic level, which is what we're discussing here. And calling it "essentially stateless" is hopelessly inaccurate.

I would ordinarily be inclined to disbelieve those claims, but since you carefully and meticulously supported them with detailed argument and primary source references, I cannot do so, and have been fully persuaded to your point of view. Well played, sir.

I've already listed a vast number of economic disasters that occurred during the period. Several of those disasters, many of which were at the start of the period resulted in significant economic regulations. See, for example, the outcomes of the South Sea Bubble (the first of those in my list).

[Cymrea]

He's invading a bit of land that contains Russians. It's like if the US invaded Australia in response to a Chinese-backed coup and people in China started screaming "but what if they conquer Mongolia next?!!".

Naw, it'd be more like Germany declaring that the Sudetenland is their's because there's a sizable German minority there, and then Chamberlain appeasing them and calling it "Peace in our time".

But duh, Russia will obviously stop its warmongering ways right after it takes eastern Ukraine... And Georgia... And Eastern Latvia... And the Russian minorities in Belarus.

And history generally condemns Chamberlain for his cowardice in appeasing Hitler.

There's quite a bit of geographic space between Australia and Mongolia. Ukraine and eastern Europe are proximal.

[Indo-European Union]

He's invading a bit of land that contains Russians. It's like if the US invaded Australia in response to a Chinese-backed coup and people in China started screaming "but what if they conquer Mongolia next?!!".

Naw, it'd be more like Germany declaring that the Sudetenland is their's because there's a sizable German minority there, and then Chamberlain appeasing them and calling it "Peace in our time".

But duh, Russia will obviously stop its warmongering ways right after it takes eastern Ukraine... And Georgia... And Eastern Latvia... And the Russian minorities in Belarus.

And Chamberlain's action wasn't unreasonable. The vast majority of territory grabs - especially of people who want their territory to be part of the invading country anyway - have not blown up into cataclysmic wars.

Russia essentially already owns the Russian bits of Georgia, the whole of Belarus, and eastern Ukraine - you want war over that? I don't see what possible benefit the US would derive from that that is worth the cost, and since Russia is nuclear you'd fail anyway. Same arguments apply the other way with respect to Russia invading Latvia, so it's not going to happen.

[Nea Videssos]

Not for all the people who died in the process.

Mexican-Americans exist. Clearly Mexico should reclaim the Southwest. >.>

Aztlan belongs to the Mexica.