How do you Justify Conservatism?

[Luminesa]

I understand that they were perhaps missusing it for this situation, but the phrase itself is not stupid. I am also aware of the governmental changes that have happened in 1790's France.

You're right. The phrase itself is not stupid; applying it to modern politics is, which is what he did.

It is somewhat out of place, there are others he could have used, admittedly. *Shrugs.*

[Super Rhodesia]

I think most people can agree that the status quo is almost always awful, so how can anyone subscribe to a political ideology that basically scorns reform? What value is there in tradition for tradition's sake? I can understand holding some conservative/traditional stances/opinions (Favoring the Nuclear family, Maintaining a strong standing military, Spending money prudently) but not as a worldview. The value in tradition lies in its effectiveness ability to effectively contribute to the advancement of humanity and the search for objective truth. Otherwise, it doesn't have value. Reform should always be actively sought out because nothing is ever finished, etc.

So conservatives of Nation States, how do you justify conservatism as an overarching philosophy?

Because the only alternative is regressive as hell.
It's racist, sexist, biggoted to an extreme as we've all witnessed over this election and hillary supporters.
It's insanity.

[Montchevre]

>Doesn't believe humans have any rights deserved by their sentience alone
>Believes in talking snakes, Earth being submerged my rainfall, a man being eaten by a whale and surviving for days

You believe in human rights or you don't. There is no in-between.

Furthermore, there is HISTORICAL evidence that a great flood happened at some point in the Mesopotamian region. And MULTIPLE CULTURES mention it.

Jonah and Genesis are largely symbolic and theological literature. Asserting otherwise proves even moreso that you know nothing about Biblical literature, and are in no position to call it "idiotic".

Calm down! First, MANY great floods happened throughout Mesopotamia all the time. The thing is not the entire world was submerged; that's impossible. Clearly, you don't take it literally. Good; they're fine metaphors. However, I find way too many people on these forums who DO take them literally to convince me that the average person realizes that they're metaphors.

[Montchevre]

Anyway, good night all. This forum is going just like every other remotely broaching the topic, so there's not really much to see.

[United Marxist Nations]

>calls the Bible fairy tales
>believes in "natural rights"

>Doesn't believe humans have any rights deserved by their sentience alone
>Believes in talking snakes, Earth being submerged my rainfall, a man being eaten by a whale and surviving for days

First off, good job assuming my beliefs. While I do think historical events are described in Genesis, I don't think they occurred precisely as described.

Moreover, it is impossible to show that there are such rights deserved.

[Mer Salcia]

I am not a conservative, but a basic justification for conservatism comes from the recognition that tradition persists and is transmitted because it has some survival value, and casting it off willy nilly is arguably dangerous.

[Conscentia]

It may be interesting to note that there is evidence of psychological and physiological differences that predispose conservatives to their views. The article below, for example, refers to a study that demonstrated that conservatives apparently have a stronger negativity bias, and remembered images evoking negative emotions more readily.

http://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/unltoday/article/study-is-your-political-ideology-in-your-head/

[New haven america]

You do realize that there are around 200-400 mass shootings in the US every year, right?

I mean, sure, you can use them to cause a civil uprising against a corrupt government or organization... but the last time that happened was in the 1860's, so yeah...

Not necessarily true, there have been numerous uprisings against corrupt governments and organizations. Multiple incidents in the Coal Wars, as well as one over election rigging: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)

Uh, I was talking about the US...

I know that there have been revolts and uprisings all over the world, but the last time a major revolt/uprising happened in the US was during the 1860's.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

It may be interesting to note that there is evidence of psychological and physiological differences that predispose conservatives to their views. The article below, for example, refers to a study that demonstrated that conservatives apparently have a stronger negativity bias, and remembered images evoking negative emotions more readily.

http://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/unltoday/article/study-is-your-political-ideology-in-your-head/

I've heard stuff similar to that.

[Escape from Trump]

It may be interesting to note that there is evidence of psychological and physiological differences that predispose conservatives to their views. The article below, for example, refers to a study that demonstrated that conservatives apparently have a stronger negativity bias, and remembered images evoking negative emotions more readily.

http://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/unltoday/article/study-is-your-political-ideology-in-your-head/

I've heard this before. I've also heard that the liberals conducting this study outnumbered conservatives 10 to 1.

[New haven america]

>calls the Bible fairy tales
>believes in "natural rights"

>Doesn't believe humans have any rights deserved by their sentience alone
>Believes in talking snakes, Earth being submerged my rainfall, a man being eaten by a whale and surviving for days

Technically there was a time in Earth's history where it was completely submerged in rainfall and water... but that was 4 billion+ years ago.

And doesn't fit in Creationist Theory at all.

[United Marxist Nations]

Not necessarily true, there have been numerous uprisings against corrupt governments and organizations. Multiple incidents in the Coal Wars, as well as one over election rigging: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)

Uh, I was talking about the US...

I know that there have been revolts and uprisings all over the world, but the last time a major revolt/uprising happened in the US was during the 1860's.

Athens, Tennessee.

[Farnhamia]

>Doesn't believe humans have any rights deserved by their sentience alone
>Believes in talking snakes, Earth being submerged my rainfall, a man being eaten by a whale and surviving for days

Technically there was a time in Earth's history where it was completely submerged in rainfall and water... but that was 4 billion+ years ago.

And doesn't fit in Creationist Theory at all.

No, well ... I haven't heard of a totally water-covered Earth but I have heard of the Snowball Earth. But creationism says the world was born yesterday, too.

[Kitzerland]

Technically there was a time in Earth's history where it was completely submerged in rainfall and water... but that was 4 billion+ years ago.

And doesn't fit in Creationist Theory at all.

No, well ... I haven't heard of a totally water-covered Earth but I have heard of the Snowball Earth. But creationism says the world was born yesterday, too.

And Noah built a giant sled, and took two of every animal, and waited out the flood avalanche.

[New haven america]

Technically there was a time in Earth's history where it was completely submerged in rainfall and water... but that was 4 billion+ years ago.

And doesn't fit in Creationist Theory at all.

No, well ... I haven't heard of a totally water-covered Earth but I have heard of the Snowball Earth. But creationism says the world was born yesterday, too.

Well, there was the Snowball Earth period, but some scientists do believe that there was a period of Earth's history where it was almost completely covered in water, with only a few volcanic islands and proto continent(s) begining to form.

[New haven america]

Uh, I was talking about the US...

I know that there have been revolts and uprisings all over the world, but the last time a major revolt/uprising happened in the US was during the 1860's.

Athens, Tennessee.

Your link didn't link directly to the page.

K, I stand corrected.

[Washington Resistance Army]

You do realize that there are around 200-400 mass shootings in the US every year, right?

No there aren't. That number comes from massshootingtracker which is run by the r/GunsAreCool subreddit and it's (former) owner has admitted to it being bullshit propaganda.

The majority of it's "mass shootings" don't even involve anyone dying and at least one incident they listed a year or two involved two kids shooting BB guns at people.

[Farnhamia]

No, well ... I haven't heard of a totally water-covered Earth but I have heard of the Snowball Earth. But creationism says the world was born yesterday, too.

Well, there was the Snowball Earth period, but some scientists do believe that there was a period of Earth's history where it was almost completely covered in water, with only a few volcanic islands and proto continent(s) begining to form.

Well, it was before even my time.

Back on topic, William F. Buckley once wrote that conservatives believe that humanity's best achievements are all in the past and must be protected. Something like that.

[Luminesa]

You believe in human rights or you don't. There is no in-between.

Furthermore, there is HISTORICAL evidence that a great flood happened at some point in the Mesopotamian region. And MULTIPLE CULTURES mention it.

Jonah and Genesis are largely symbolic and theological literature. Asserting otherwise proves even moreso that you know nothing about Biblical literature, and are in no position to call it "idiotic".

Calm down! First, MANY great floods happened throughout Mesopotamia all the time. The thing is not the entire world was submerged; that's impossible. Clearly, you don't take it literally. Good; they're fine metaphors. However, I find way too many people on these forums who DO take them literally to convince me that the average person realizes that they're metaphors.

Oh I'm calm. I just use lots of caps. I generally talk very loudly when I'm excited. Or arguing. Or both. Sorry for sounding so abrasive. ^^

There were lots of floods, so the story is not baseless. Also, the world obviously was not made in seven days.

[Infected Mushroom]

It can't really be justified.

Tradition is the corpse of wisdom - Zed

[Galactic Assembly of Free Planets]

Calm down! First, MANY great floods happened throughout Mesopotamia all the time. The thing is not the entire world was submerged; that's impossible. Clearly, you don't take it literally. Good; they're fine metaphors. However, I find way too many people on these forums who DO take them literally to convince me that the average person realizes that they're metaphors.

Oh I'm calm. I just use lots of caps. I generally talk very loudly when I'm excited. Or arguing. Or both. Sorry for sounding so abrasive. ^^

There were lots of floods, so the story is not baseless. Also, the world obviously was not made in seven days.

Even Augustine said it wasn't supposed to be literal if I remember correctly.

[House of Judah]

Nice definition you pulled out of your ass. Still doesn't invalidate in the slightest the fact that if people are conservatives it's because they aren't ready to buy up on any new trend immediately just because it's new.

Have to agree there. I believe it's natural, healthy even, for the next generation to want more freedom than the last. But there are a lot of issues I have no idea why Democrats are against. Right to decline service is understandable, the most they've probably ever heard about it was a movie or joke in which an openly homophobic man would be both for right to decline service and against gay marriage, then profoundly state he wouldn't let a homosexual in his store to dehumanize the issue even more. Gun control is the biggest one though. Many view taking away all assault weapons, shotguns, or even just pistols away from the people as perfectly reasonable. Missing the intent of the amendment to allow the people to start a revolt when the people deem it necessary.

Have you even read the Second Amendment? I mean the entire thing, because the language makes pretty clear the intent.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The second amendment in no way allows for or encourages citizens to arm themselves in case they must fight against the government. It is if they must fight for the government. Every male citizen between 17 and 45 years is legally considered part of the the "unorganized militia" and can, theoretically, be called into service of the federal government. The Second's purpose is to have a back up of irregulars ready to go if the regular forces require supplementing or must be deployed elsewhere.

[Lorkhan]

Conservatism is fundamentally flawed, because it is a naive reaction to humanity's pursuit of progress and the natural affects of social change. The tragedy of conservatism, is that it is an ideologically based on two points.

1. Property and ownership are permanent, and this extends from something as simple as a house or neighborhood to an entire nation or culture
2. It is a nostalgic longing for some kind of culture that has already been obsolete for some time now, and an attempt to re-introduce that culture.

However, to be fair, we should at least appreciate conservatism as a viable social net for the uneducated and disassociated working class, and also as an easy alternative to liberal illusion.

Just look at the success of Donald Trump, Tea Party, InfoWars, and other conservative avenues of information and protest. This is a revolution that has grown out of frustration and stupidity. Not that it isn't led by practical strategists who have exploited the state of conservatism, no, I'm not saying it's exclusive to dumb farmers. On the other hand, let's be honest about who speaks the loudest voice of today's conservatism and who the demagogues are speaking toward.

It is obvious that the current model of globalized capitalism is not working, and this model is heavily influenced within the sphere of Western European politics. Isn't that so? Now then, why not blame the liberal hegemony, since they have obviously co-ordinated nothing short of economic and cultural catastrophe all over the planet? It is easy to lean toward conservatism, when you point out failures of liberalism. You don't even need to be a conservative to become a conservative these days. It is just a matter of hating liberals.

As for the ideological primitives of the right wing, can you blame the working class who have no recourse but to wave their Bibles and shout vile unconstrained sentiments, while their jobs are shipped away to foreign shores, and military families are utterly humiliated in endless ineffective wars? What are their other options, but to become demented enclosed reactionaries, when education goes up and social welfare becomes more remote in town to town? Obviously, everything has become confusing and cultural values are being lost in the tides with the gradual changes in our society. Someone has to become the scapegoat, the easiest answer is anyone who doesn't share the immediate cultural imagery of white rural and suburban society, and then from there the reactionaries move on to target other Christians and moderate conservatives who do not share the vision of an appointed demagogue.

Liberalism can only go so far in a society before it reaches an obstacle where progress cannot be achieved. In other words, people cannot achieve new liberal notions due to a lack of affordability, outreach, or for philosophical and religious constrictions. On that note, liberalism itself has its flaws, because it has gone completely off of the tracks into some new space where new forms of oppression are introduced in the discourse, at a rate faster than many are willing or able to develop a way to comprehend.

Furthermore, there is some great silliness in assuming that there is anyway a government can seamlessly introduce socialism or communism. Liberals like to live in some artificial reality that they are outraged to find isn't achievable, isn't that right? It is existent only in the fantasy of some undergraduate who has read a few things about Denmark, or maybe in the eyes of someone who visited a few times without actually realizing that life isn't literally a utopia all over Northern Europe. We could, theoretically, become state slaves of social welfare, but who doesn't know already that Europe is on the brink of collapse?

Sometimes, liberals exploit themselves into their own defeat, creating a massive social filter net. Everyone who passes through the filter remains in the illusion, and those who do not become angry idiots, I love to joke.

It is a paradox; we must go forward, but not so fast or so much that it disturbs the entire social fabric, however, as a consequence of the cultural divide we will disrupt the entire social fabric nonetheless.



TL;DR

I think the best way to sum this up is to say ideology has seriously fucked us all up, and the only way for us to truly succeed is to find a way to transfer a collective conscious into albino sex robots.

[Ancient Pluto]

If american conservatism cared at all about tradition, why did Trump win the Republican primary?

Likewise, if Liberals were all about reform, why is ending the sexist, freedom-crushing abomination that is the draft nowhere on the Agenda's to-do list?

[Frank Zipper]

It would be nice if politics could follow scientific practice, and change one variable at a time to study how it affects things. But I suspect the world changes too fast for that to be a realistic option. So what we need to do is debate every change in policy. For that to happen we need a voice to defend the status quo, and one to speak for the proposed change. The weakness of this system is that it can become tribalistic, with the conservative voice blocking everything, or change being called for simply for change's sake. So it needs to be nicely balanced to work well.