The "I was in the military" card

[Thermodolia]

It's just an appeal to authority fallacy.

I remember a few years ago someone - I think it might have even been on NS - used "I served in the military" as a justification for "There is a God". Seriously, how does that even work?

Well they say there are no atheists in the trenches.

Which is super crap. I had at least two in my platoon during basic.

[Imperializt Russia]

Historically, this country regarded the military as a place where the unemployed, convicts, and vagabonds were sent to prevent them from causing unrest. This country denigrated the military as a place where losers and the culturally uninitiated spent their lives. This country has the adage, "Good men do not serve in the military; good iron is not used as nails." This country is China.

Is that really true though?

Didn't China build a wall to keep out invaders and did they not have men to man the wall? Bruce Lee in an interview even said that Kung Fu warriors have a different way of walking than say- a scholar, and obviously someone from the warrior class would be able to beat the tar out of someone who wasn't, in ancient China going all the way up towards perhaps the end of the Qing dynasty in 1912.

Good men being military men isn't a universal cultural thing. This was also true in Korean history, where for a long time the military was also seen as a fairly low standing and officerships were regarded as "easy" routes into the truly desirable social ranks, the Confucian court.

[Republic of the Cristo]

In regards to creating a new tax code, no this insight into true human nature is not important, but in matters of foreign policy,

Knowing how to fight doesn't mean one knows when they should, or with whom.

security,

Only by means of lethal violence, which I hope you think isn't commonly applicable.

assistance programs,

I just don't see why you'd expect them to be proficient in this respect.

immigration, it most certainly does!

This is an aspect of foreign policy. Again, fighting doesn't make someone inherently knowledgeable of immigration.

You fail to realize that the military is more than just fighting. The military deals with reconstruction, policing, human relations, development.

Knowing the requirements and stresses of fighting most definitely grants their opinion more merit - they have first hand knowledge of what exactly combat and war truly entails. As they understand it better than those who have not participated, no one is as suited to make such decisions they. If a vote for war is asked of the public, they are not going to come to you and I for opinions, they are going to go to the people who actually know what war is.

In regards to security, you do realize that in the military men are cautioned that whenever possible do not kill ( capturing is preferable to killing ). Look at in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, the military's main job there was to act as police men - there were a number of killings, but considering the extreme circumstances the military did a fine job as a police force.

Those whom have served their terms in the military have undergone extreme amounts of stress and massive amounts of labor and toil. These men are more aware of just how much a human being can bear and what they are capable of than most. Were as many whom are not as experienced in toil and hardship may look at some scenario's of poverty and overreact, a veteran would be able to more closely relate and be aware of their situation, and thus would be able to decide from real world experiences the best possible course of action.

Immigration entails allowing foreign born persons. Military men ( at least in the United States ), are deployed all over the world for months ( and some times accumulatively years ) at a time and must live amongst foreigner's during that time. they deal with foreign peoples and foreign ideas more than the average civilian, and they are more acutely aware of what the common man of the world thinks of the US. They know the people coming into our country, they know how they think, and what they think. Since the military has dealt with their kind before ( presumably ) then it would give many veterans an insight into immigration.

[Zakuvia]

Well they say there are no atheists in the trenches.

Which is super crap. I had at least two in my platoon during basic.

I myself am a member of the armed forces and am an atheist. I'm not terribly vocal about it, but that's because it's because I'm not proselytized to. Respect given for respect received. I am, however, trying to see if my base is willing to open a chapter of MAAF (Military Assocation of Atheists and Freethinkers). It's the largest group that specifically provides for non-believers in the military, and I think my command's chaplain would be approving.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Which is super crap. I had at least two in my platoon during basic.

I myself am a member of the armed forces and am an atheist. I'm not terribly vocal about it, but that's because it's because I'm not proselytized to. Respect given for respect received. I am, however, trying to see if my base is willing to open a chapter of MAAF (Military Assocation of Atheists and Freethinkers). It's the largest group that specifically provides for non-believers in the military, and I think my command's chaplain would be approving.

Yeah, chaplians can be pretty accommodating, they care more about your moral well being then what you do or don't believe. I'd go for it.

[Lady Scylla]

I've seen it done by soldiers that expect people to think they're saints just because they've served. Seen it plenty by dependas over the whole "my husband serves so I can do this."

[Thermodolia]

I've seen it done by soldiers that expect people to think they're saints just because they've served. Seen it plenty by dependas over the whole "my husband serves so I can do this."

"Respect my (husbands) rank" and "Do you know who my husband is" are my two favorite dependa sayings.
I'm the type that doesn't really make a big deal out of it and usually the only way to figure out if I'm in the military was if they've been in as well.

[Rusozak]

You know who else was in the military?


Hitler. *nod*

Seriously though, that's a mute argument if someone's using that to justify special treatment everywhere they go or a credentials for being a good, responsible person. Just as in all occupations, every military to ever exist has some bad eggs. Sure, the screening process is more thorough than other jobs, but it's still a thing and military service doesn't define someone's character.

[Lady Scylla]

You know who else was in the military?


Hitler. *nod*

Seriously though, that's a mute argument if someone's using that to justify special treatment everywhere they go or a credentials for being a good, responsible person. Just as in all occupations, every military to ever exist has some bad eggs. Sure, the screening process is more thorough than other jobs, but it's still a thing and military service doesn't define someone's character.

My brother was in the military. He's an asshole that I can't stand to be around. Got blown up in Sadr by an IED, threw shrapnel into his shoulder, has PTSD. But he was an asshole before he signed up, all it did was make it worse. Still hate him and cant wait til he moves out. So yeah, service doesnt excuse you from being a dick, and it doesnt give ya any special privilege. His consistency to burn us out of money, not contribute, and scream at my parents has pushed my sympathy to the limits.

Its like dealing with a 32 year old that behaves like an 8 year old.

[San Marlindo]

Politicians evoke military backgrounds when they want votes from veterans and their families. Or if they represent a constituency where a large number of their voters are a) military personnel, b) civilians employed by the military/DOD, or c) dependents of groups a and b.

Have you never considered that's why they harp on that, as opposed to just bragging rights?

[San Marlindo]

It's just an appeal to authority fallacy.

I remember a few years ago someone - I think it might have even been on NS - used "I served in the military" as a justification for "There is a God". Seriously, how does that even work?

I remember a few years ago someone on this forum said in a thread (about lying on the web) that if every poster here had to be truthful about their professions, we'd see a massive reduction in the number of lawyers, teachers, and soldiers.

And a massive increase in the number of students.

Just something to think about.

[Kannabyss]

I agree with the OP for the most part, I had an experience with it firsthand. I was out drinking one evening and I befriended this guy pretty quickly. He pulled the veteran card with me but I kind of blew it off, I'll touch more on that later. Over the course of our friendship for the next week or so, which was simply layover time for me and a good chunk of our time was spent drinking, it was more a matter of how much I could keep up with him. Anyway, just about every person we came into extended contact got to hear about how he was a sergeant of some sort, but he was very discreet about the part about being a sniper, only told a few people besides me. In our idle time alone, if I let him direct all the conversation, we'd pretty much only talk about horrifying sh,t he had seen in combat, and at times he would express views that the US military had left him mentally and physically handicapped after seeing and enduring some of the things that he did, his family became estranged, possibly because he became so strange, he developed a drinking problem, and all the trouble that old chestnut carries. When I departed to my next destination I left a little heartwrenched that I couldn't do more to help this person, but something tells me I probably wasn't fully qualified.

As I said earlier, when this friend of mine told me of his military experience I kind of just shrugged it off, as I do most of the time, for the simple fact that I have no military experience, I kind of shy away from subjects I can't relate to, and my grandfather who was in the Navy didn't really talk about it and certainly didn't demand any level of respect for it, probably because he was just a cook. The concept that I owe any verbal expression of gratitude to a veteran upon being told of their veteran status wasn't something I was taught in my schools in Phoenix or by my family, it was something I learned when I was like 21, from observing others for the most part. I guess since I've never been in the military, I can't relate to any of their etiquette and barely any background info. And that being said, I'm only 25, so I wasn't around for much and I don't feel like I owe much to the past, I'm kind of a selfish guy like that and some of the things that happened before my day were unspeakable, but that was all on them, I wasn't even born yet. I'm looking forward to a cool high-tech, hopefully greener future, war and conflict isn't something I want to dwell on.

Since I'm all about respect and you never know which ones feel particularly entitled about it, I will typically say "thanks for your service". Here in America we have very little, if any, choice in what wars we go fight, and even less about the ones we don't. We can't let the choices of our government divide us a people, I don't think it's right to disrespect veterans. Anywhere you are in the world really it's considered honorable to join the military, so I can't blame a young, impulsive, and totally inexperienced young adult to make that decision, regardless of the political host, but since the US military recruiters offer all kinds of sweet benefits during and after your service, it might even seem tempting. I don't see it as something to get all politically bent out of shape about.

[NERVUN]

Knowing how to fight doesn't mean one knows when they should, or with whom.

Only by means of lethal violence, which I hope you think isn't commonly applicable.

I just don't see why you'd expect them to be proficient in this respect.

This is an aspect of foreign policy. Again, fighting doesn't make someone inherently knowledgeable of immigration.

You fail to realize that the military is more than just fighting. The military deals with reconstruction, policing, human relations, development.

Yes, but not everyone in the military does that.

Knowing the requirements and stresses of fighting most definitely grants their opinion more merit - they have first hand knowledge of what exactly combat and war truly entails. As they understand it better than those who have not participated, no one is as suited to make such decisions they. If a vote for war is asked of the public, they are not going to come to you and I for opinions, they are going to go to the people who actually know what war is.

Yes, but not everyone in the military does that.

Those whom have served their terms in the military have undergone extreme amounts of stress and massive amounts of labor and toil.

Yes, but not everyone in the military does that.

These men are more aware of just how much a human being can bear and what they are capable of than most.

Yes, but not everyone in the military does that.

Were as many whom are not as experienced in toil and hardship may look at some scenario's of poverty and overreact, a veteran would be able to more closely relate and be aware of their situation, and thus would be able to decide from real world experiences the best possible course of action.

Now you're just making stuff up.

Immigration entails allowing foreign born persons. Military men ( at least in the United States ), are deployed all over the world for months ( and some times accumulatively years ) at a time and must live amongst foreigner's during that time. they deal with foreign peoples and foreign ideas more than the average civilian, and they are more acutely aware of what the common man of the world thinks of the US. They know the people coming into our country, they know how they think, and what they think. Since the military has dealt with their kind before ( presumably ) then it would give many veterans an insight into immigration.

Ok... as an American who is an ex-pat and who has lived in Japan for 12 years, I can tell you with absolute certainty that this is false. I've encountered more US military personnel who have no fricken clue about Japan, its customs, its people, etc. than I like to think about simply because they never leave Yokosuka's areas that are more or less designed as an American playground. They live in base, shop on base, play on base or in the bars around the base. They know nothing about Japan, and believe you me, it shows.

Now, that's not ALL military in Japan. Which is the point. Service does not guarantee any of what you wrote. You could do 3 years beyond basic and spend the time playing video games in the barracks in Texas and never hear a shot fired in anger.

[The Conez Imperium]

You know who else was in the military?


Hitler. *nod*

Seriously though, that's a mute argument if someone's using that to justify special treatment everywhere they go or a credentials for being a good, responsible person. Just as in all occupations, every military to ever exist has some bad eggs. Sure, the screening process is more thorough than other jobs, but it's still a thing and military service doesn't define someone's character.

My brother was in the military. He's an asshole that I can't stand to be around. Got blown up in Sadr by an IED, threw shrapnel into his shoulder, has PTSD. But he was an asshole before he signed up, all it did was make it worse. Still hate him and cant wait til he moves out. So yeah, service doesnt excuse you from being a dick, and it doesnt give ya any special privilege. His consistency to burn us out of money, not contribute, and scream at my parents has pushed my sympathy to the limits.

Its like dealing with a 32 year old that behaves like an 8 year old.

The worst is Hitler received an Iron cross first class and wore it everywhere it went. The only military credential the little corporal could ever obtain.

I can imagine a similar scenario play out in the wolf's lair in 1944 during the retreat of German forces in the Eastern Front. "But I was in WWI so we must do this tactic general".

[The Realm of Lordaeron]

I honestly would have a lot more respect for an individual with formal education than someone with experience, generally speaking.

[Republic of the Cristo]

You fail to realize that the military is more than just fighting. The military deals with reconstruction, policing, human relations, development.

Yes, but not everyone in the military does that.

Knowing the requirements and stresses of fighting most definitely grants their opinion more merit - they have first hand knowledge of what exactly combat and war truly entails. As they understand it better than those who have not participated, no one is as suited to make such decisions they. If a vote for war is asked of the public, they are not going to come to you and I for opinions, they are going to go to the people who actually know what war is.

Yes, but not everyone in the military does that.

Those whom have served their terms in the military have undergone extreme amounts of stress and massive amounts of labor and toil.

Yes, but not everyone in the military does that.

These men are more aware of just how much a human being can bear and what they are capable of than most.

Yes, but not everyone in the military does that.

Were as many whom are not as experienced in toil and hardship may look at some scenario's of poverty and overreact, a veteran would be able to more closely relate and be aware of their situation, and thus would be able to decide from real world experiences the best possible course of action.

Now you're just making stuff up.

Immigration entails allowing foreign born persons. Military men ( at least in the United States ), are deployed all over the world for months ( and some times accumulatively years ) at a time and must live amongst foreigner's during that time. they deal with foreign peoples and foreign ideas more than the average civilian, and they are more acutely aware of what the common man of the world thinks of the US. They know the people coming into our country, they know how they think, and what they think. Since the military has dealt with their kind before ( presumably ) then it would give many veterans an insight into immigration.

Ok... as an American who is an ex-pat and who has lived in Japan for 12 years, I can tell you with absolute certainty that this is false. I've encountered more US military personnel who have no fricken clue about Japan, its customs, its people, etc. than I like to think about simply because they never leave Yokosuka's areas that are more or less designed as an American playground. They live in base, shop on base, play on base or in the bars around the base. They know nothing about Japan, and believe you me, it shows.

Now, that's not ALL military in Japan. Which is the point. Service does not guarantee any of what you wrote. You could do 3 years beyond basic and spend the time playing video games in the barracks in Texas and never hear a shot fired in anger.

You are completely right, most people in the military do not deal with development, policing, reconstruction, or human relations - just the vast majority. You realize there are more infrastructure and maintenance jobs and personnel in the military than combat personnel right? If you have not served in combat roles and were say an accountant for the military, then I doubt you would brag - we are speaking of the combat personnel.

So yes, they do indeed do everything which was previously stated. And no I am not making stuff up. The person whom is more competent in deciding issues such as say welfare, would be the one whom has lived in extreme conditions and one who worked through them.

Some of the military men whom you have associated with may have not bothered to learn the culture, but there are thousands of vets back home who did take an interest in the people and the culture of Japan. Japan only being one example, we have vets who interacted with cultures of every place they have been deployed. There are always varying cases, but at the very least, our deployed military men had the chance to interact with foreigners, which is more interaction than what most civilians have had.

[The Grim Reaper]

You are completely right, most people in the military do not deal with development, policing, reconstruction, or human relations - just the vast majority. You realize there are more infrastructure and maintenance jobs and personnel in the military than combat personnel right? If you have not served in combat roles and were say an accountant for the military, then I doubt you would brag - we are speaking of the combat personnel.

So yes, they do indeed do everything which was previously stated. And no I am not making stuff up. The person whom is more competent in deciding issues such as say welfare, would be the one whom has lived in extreme conditions and one who worked through them.

Some of the military men whom you have associated with may have not bothered to learn the culture, but there are thousands of vets back home who did take an interest in the people and the culture of Japan. Japan only being one example, we have vets who interacted with cultures of every place they have been deployed. There are always varying cases, but at the very least, our deployed military men had the chance to interact with foreigners, which is more interaction than what most civilians have had.

Like people who use welfare?

Like immigrants?

If we're randomly discarding opinions based on perceived experiences, why are you a better arbiter of a soldier's knowledge of Japan than an American ex-pat who is a long-term resident of Japan? I'm a two-time immigrant, do I get to bitch at the next soldier I see about not having as much multi-cultural interaction as I have?

[Republic of the Cristo]

You are completely right, most people in the military do not deal with development, policing, reconstruction, or human relations - just the vast majority. You realize there are more infrastructure and maintenance jobs and personnel in the military than combat personnel right? If you have not served in combat roles and were say an accountant for the military, then I doubt you would brag - we are speaking of the combat personnel.

So yes, they do indeed do everything which was previously stated. And no I am not making stuff up. The person whom is more competent in deciding issues such as say welfare, would be the one whom has lived in extreme conditions and one who worked through them.

Some of the military men whom you have associated with may have not bothered to learn the culture, but there are thousands of vets back home who did take an interest in the people and the culture of Japan. Japan only being one example, we have vets who interacted with cultures of every place they have been deployed. There are always varying cases, but at the very least, our deployed military men had the chance to interact with foreigners, which is more interaction than what most civilians have had.

Like people who use welfare?

Like immigrants?

If we're randomly discarding opinions based on perceived experiences, why are you a better arbiter of a soldier's knowledge of Japan than an American ex-pat who is a long-term resident of Japan? I'm a two-time immigrant, do I get to bitch at the next soldier I see about not having as much multi-cultural interaction as I have?

Yes, and the average American does not engage too often with immigrants.

I did not say that a soldier who was deployed in Japan knows more about Japan than an ex-pat. I did say that I would hold his opinion higher than a civilian with little experience with Japan ( or any country for that matter ).

[The Grim Reaper]

Like people who use welfare?

Like immigrants?

If we're randomly discarding opinions based on perceived experiences, why are you a better arbiter of a soldier's knowledge of Japan than an American ex-pat who is a long-term resident of Japan? I'm a two-time immigrant, do I get to bitch at the next soldier I see about not having as much multi-cultural interaction as I have?

Yes, and the average American does not engage too often with immigrants.

I did not say that a soldier who was deployed in Japan knows more about Japan than an ex-pat. I did say that I would hold his opinion higher than a civilian with little experience with Japan ( or any country for that matter ).

So you're saying the actual status of 'being a soldier' is entirely meaningless?

[Republic of the Cristo]

Yes, and the average American does not engage too often with immigrants.

I did not say that a soldier who was deployed in Japan knows more about Japan than an ex-pat. I did say that I would hold his opinion higher than a civilian with little experience with Japan ( or any country for that matter ).

So you're saying the actual status of 'being a soldier' is entirely meaningless?

Being a soldier whom has been deployed and whom has seen disaster or combat grants merit to the title. Just being the military grants no merit, but being someone who has seen the two situations mentioned above does.

[The Grim Reaper]

So you're saying the actual status of 'being a soldier' is entirely meaningless?

Being a soldier whom has been deployed and whom has seen disaster or combat grants merit to the title. Just being the military grants no merit, but being someone who has seen the two situations mentioned above does.

Isn't a military PR guy just as good for talking about, say, foreign cultures, as someone who deployed to combat?

[Republic of the Cristo]

Being a soldier whom has been deployed and whom has seen disaster or combat grants merit to the title. Just being the military grants no merit, but being someone who has seen the two situations mentioned above does.

Isn't a military PR guy just as good for talking about, say, foreign cultures, as someone who deployed to combat?

Depends, has he ever actually been to the place he is talking about? And if so, under what conditions?

A soldier who served as a police unit in say Iraq probably has a better understanding of the Iraqi people than say an academic who only knows what he does through literature.

[Imperializt Russia]

Knowing how to fight doesn't mean one knows when they should, or with whom.

Only by means of lethal violence, which I hope you think isn't commonly applicable.

I just don't see why you'd expect them to be proficient in this respect.

This is an aspect of foreign policy. Again, fighting doesn't make someone inherently knowledgeable of immigration.

You fail to realize that the military is more than just fighting. The military deals with reconstruction, policing, human relations, development.

Knowing the requirements and stresses of fighting most definitely grants their opinion more merit - they have first hand knowledge of what exactly combat and war truly entails. As they understand it better than those who have not participated, no one is as suited to make such decisions they. If a vote for war is asked of the public, they are not going to come to you and I for opinions, they are going to go to the people who actually know what war is.

In regards to security, you do realize that in the military men are cautioned that whenever possible do not kill ( capturing is preferable to killing ). Look at in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, the military's main job there was to act as police men - there were a number of killings, but considering the extreme circumstances the military did a fine job as a police force.

Those whom have served their terms in the military have undergone extreme amounts of stress and massive amounts of labor and toil. These men are more aware of just how much a human being can bear and what they are capable of than most. Were as many whom are not as experienced in toil and hardship may look at some scenario's of poverty and overreact, a veteran would be able to more closely relate and be aware of their situation, and thus would be able to decide from real world experiences the best possible course of action.

Immigration entails allowing foreign born persons. Military men ( at least in the United States ), are deployed all over the world for months ( and some times accumulatively years ) at a time and must live amongst foreigner's during that time. they deal with foreign peoples and foreign ideas more than the average civilian, and they are more acutely aware of what the common man of the world thinks of the US. They know the people coming into our country, they know how they think, and what they think. Since the military has dealt with their kind before ( presumably ) then it would give many veterans an insight into immigration.

Did you read Starship Troopers recently? Service does not guarantee Citizenship.

[Big Jim P]

You fail to realize that the military is more than just fighting. The military deals with reconstruction, policing, human relations, development.

Knowing the requirements and stresses of fighting most definitely grants their opinion more merit - they have first hand knowledge of what exactly combat and war truly entails. As they understand it better than those who have not participated, no one is as suited to make such decisions they. If a vote for war is asked of the public, they are not going to come to you and I for opinions, they are going to go to the people who actually know what war is.

In regards to security, you do realize that in the military men are cautioned that whenever possible do not kill ( capturing is preferable to killing ). Look at in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, the military's main job there was to act as police men - there were a number of killings, but considering the extreme circumstances the military did a fine job as a police force.

Those whom have served their terms in the military have undergone extreme amounts of stress and massive amounts of labor and toil. These men are more aware of just how much a human being can bear and what they are capable of than most. Were as many whom are not as experienced in toil and hardship may look at some scenario's of poverty and overreact, a veteran would be able to more closely relate and be aware of their situation, and thus would be able to decide from real world experiences the best possible course of action.

Immigration entails allowing foreign born persons. Military men ( at least in the United States ), are deployed all over the world for months ( and some times accumulatively years ) at a time and must live amongst foreigner's during that time. they deal with foreign peoples and foreign ideas more than the average civilian, and they are more acutely aware of what the common man of the world thinks of the US. They know the people coming into our country, they know how they think, and what they think. Since the military has dealt with their kind before ( presumably ) then it would give many veterans an insight into immigration.

Did you read Starship Troopers recently? Service does not guarantee Citizenship.

Service to earn citizenship is a good idea as long as non-military options are offered for those who are unable, unwilling oe unsuitable for military service.

[Thermodolia]

So you're saying the actual status of 'being a soldier' is entirely meaningless?

Being a soldier whom has been deployed and whom has seen disaster or combat grants merit to the title. Just being the military grants no merit, but being someone who has seen the two situations mentioned above does.

Dude seeing disaster, which could mean anything, is a pretty flimsy thing to base merit and respect off of. I know of several friends who aren't in the military but have seen their family members die or their house destroyed by some freak of nature storm or some fire.