Mass immigration: should we embrace it or not?

[San Lumen]

Moving massive amounts of people from a less developed regions will eventually turn those more developed regions into less developed regions because they take up space, food, money, waste, etc. So no.

and how is that? Has the UK become less developed? Germany, Canada or the US? No? please give evidence before making statement like that.

[Grave_n_idle]

The 'status quo' is fine. Nazis being Nazis is not a failure of the status quo. We don't negotiate with terrorists.

Neo Nazis are not the only problem. Moreover no the status quo is not fine. We have a huge number of social problems today.

Oh lord, yes.

And almost all of our problems ultimately come down to class war. Not multiculturalism.

[The East Marches]

My own father was an immigrant. I would tell him tough luck, sucks to be you. Unlike others, he does recognize the need for control in immigration and the right of countries to deny people entry. Why you think that being the descendent of an immigrant means you should support open borders is beyond me.

You would have told him tough luck? Do you even know what pogroms are? Guess what shortly after Romania was ravaged by World War One and when the Holocaust occurred those in his family who didn't get out were killed. Many did get out fortunately. Had my great grandfather not come to the US when he did I would most likely not be typing this.

Yes I would have told him tough luck, sucks to be you. Where is the part where we are legally obligated to open our doors to anybody with a sad tale and a puppy dog eyes? Perhaps you can show me that. The world is a rough place, bad things happen all the time and you can't save everyone. Best to look out for own and get your home affairs in order before looking to others.

Another Canadian here begs to differ on whether it works.

And please explain how. the left won a massive victory in in 2015 in case you didnt know. They rejected a party that was brining in hatred and anti immigration unlike my country which embraced it because of a stupid election system but thats not the point. Canada rejected politics like what you and Ostraeuropa are espousing. Please give evidence of how multiculturalism and diversity isn't working in Canada.

I never espoused what Ostroeuropa did. The Canadian conservatives were pro immigration. Neither were like Trump.

[Scandinavian Nations]

When someone from a different culture does something illegal, it's the crime that's the problem. Treat the real problem.

The crime is a symptom. When people from a different culture consistently do more illegal things than people from the core culture, treating the symptoms (reducing the crime rate) may be better accomplished by removing the high-crime cultures.

[Neutraligon]

Neo Nazis are not the only problem. Moreover no the status quo is not fine. We have a huge number of social problems today.

Oh lord, yes.

And almost all of our problems ultimately come down to class war. Not multiculturalism.

I agree a lot of the problems are with class rather then multiculturalism. Although, in the US at least, class and race tend to be rather connected.
As to immigration, I am iffy on the concept. I think countries do have the right to determine who can cross their borders, in fact I think that is rather necessary to the stability of a society.

[Grave_n_idle]

Moving massive amounts of people from a less developed regions will eventually turn those more developed regions into less developed regions because they take up space, food, money, waste, etc. So no.

'Moving massive amounts of people' is going to happen, anyway.

Even if estimates of rising sea levels were massively wrong - they discuss a real phenomenon - and one that is going to displace hundreds of millions of people. Soon.

And that's not the only environmental change that is going to trigger mass-migration.

So we really need to work out how we're going to deal with this issue before it becomes a problem.

[The East Marches]

Moving massive amounts of people from a less developed regions will eventually turn those more developed regions into less developed regions because they take up space, food, money, waste, etc. So no.

'Moving massive amounts of people' is going to happen, anyway.

Even if estimates of rising sea levels were massively wrong - they discuss a real phenomenon - and one that is going to displace hundreds of millions of people. Soon.

And that's not the only environmental change that is going to trigger mass-migration.

So we really need to work out how we're going to deal with this issue before it becomes a problem.

We are gonna need a bigger wall it appears.

[Bogdanov Vishniac]

I guess we should start by defining 'working' before we go any further - what exactly isn't 'working' and what would it look like if it were?

If things were working, you wouldn't have a meme PM and we wouldn't have a meme President. How is that?

Yeah Trudeau is a meme in parts of the internet where Americans play a large part in the discourse. Doesn't say much about Trudeau's popularity amongst Canadians, which is pretty strong and stable as of recent polling.

[The Liberated Territories]

I think a policy that is reason based and balances national security with the right to immigrate is the best course to take.

[San Lumen]

You would have told him tough luck? Do you even know what pogroms are? Guess what shortly after Romania was ravaged by World War One and when the Holocaust occurred those in his family who didn't get out were killed. Many did get out fortunately. Had my great grandfather not come to the US when he did I would most likely not be typing this.

Yes I would have told him tough luck, sucks to be you. Where is the part where we are legally obligated to open our doors to anybody with a sad tale and a puppy dog eyes? Perhaps you can show me that. The world is a rough place, bad things happen all the time and you can't save everyone. Best to look out for own and get your home affairs in order before looking to others.

And please explain how. the left won a massive victory in in 2015 in case you didnt know. They rejected a party that was brining in hatred and anti immigration unlike my country which embraced it because of a stupid election system but thats not the point. Canada rejected politics like what you and Ostraeuropa are espousing. Please give evidence of how multiculturalism and diversity isn't working in Canada.

I never espoused what Ostroeuropa did. The Canadian conservatives were pro immigration. Neither were like Trump.

So your family never immigrated from another country huh? Unless you are a Native tribe your family were immigrants at some point. And if that is taken further everyone is an immigrant. Humanity began in what is now Ethiopia.
So basically what your saying is I shouldnt be here today? My ancestors should have risked death and persecution from the pogroms and the impeding world war? Do you even know what a pogrom is?

Harper could have fooled me with his anti Muslim polices.

[The East Marches]

Yes I would have told him tough luck, sucks to be you. Where is the part where we are legally obligated to open our doors to anybody with a sad tale and a puppy dog eyes? Perhaps you can show me that. The world is a rough place, bad things happen all the time and you can't save everyone. Best to look out for own and get your home affairs in order before looking to others.



I never espoused what Ostroeuropa did. The Canadian conservatives were pro immigration. Neither were like Trump.

So your family never immigrated from another country huh? Unless you are a Native tribe your family were immigrants at some point. And if that is taken further everyone is an immigrant. Humanity began in what is now Ethiopia.
So basically what your saying is I shouldnt be here today? My ancestors should have risked death and persecution from the pogroms and the impeding world war? Do you even know what a pogrom is?

Harper could have fooled me with his anti Muslim polices.

I already mentioned my father was an immigrant. Just because he was one, does mean I should automatically support open borders. I did not say you shouldn't be here. You presented me with a hypothetical regarding the current immigration situation. I answered that yes I would turn such a person away.

[Bogdanov Vishniac]

I never espoused what Ostroeuropa did. The Canadian conservatives were pro immigration. Neither were like Trump.

Which is of course telling. Anti-multiculturalism is so far out of the mainstream that none of the major parties espouse it as policy. Excluding people like Leitch, of course, and she's kind of a walking punchline.

[Novus America]

The U.K. is not without problems.

Absolutely. And, going back to where I came in - that's a problem with the problems, not with multiculturalism.

When someone from a different culture does something illegal, it's the crime that's the problem. Treat the real problem.

The existence of segregated ethnic ghettos is also a problem. Treating the problem will also require other changes than merely arresting people for crimes.

[The East Marches]

I never espoused what Ostroeuropa did. The Canadian conservatives were pro immigration. Neither were like Trump.

Which is of course telling. Anti-multiculturalism is so far out of the mainstream that none of the major parties espouse it as policy.

Yes, Canadians clearly lack backbone to say what must be said :^)

Though in more seriousness, I suspect you may soon be affected by what the rest of the West is going through. I wish you lot good luck.

[Scandinavian Nations]

Even if estimates of rising sea levels were massively wrong - they discuss a real phenomenon - and one that is going to displace hundreds of millions of people. Soon.
And that's not the only environmental change that is going to trigger mass-migration.

First, even if everything about AGW proves to be true - so far it doesn't - it projects at worst 1m of sea level rise by 2100, which isn't even "soon".

Second, environmental changes can't by themselves result in mass migration. The necessary prerequisite for mass migration is countries opening their borders to it. No open borders, no mass migration.

[Novus America]

Neo Nazis are not the only problem. Moreover no the status quo is not fine. We have a huge number of social problems today.

Oh lord, yes.

And almost all of our problems ultimately come down to class war. Not multiculturalism.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The non melting pot type multi culturalism actually creates separate ethnic classes rather than encouraging the creation of a single United culture and class. Within that there can be different subcultures but certain things need be universal.

Having separate ethnic ghettos with culture different than the rest, and that do not work well with the rest exacerbates class and ecnomic tensions.

[San Lumen]

So your family never immigrated from another country huh? Unless you are a Native tribe your family were immigrants at some point. And if that is taken further everyone is an immigrant. Humanity began in what is now Ethiopia.
So basically what your saying is I shouldnt be here today? My ancestors should have risked death and persecution from the pogroms and the impeding world war? Do you even know what a pogrom is?

Harper could have fooled me with his anti Muslim polices.

I already mentioned my father was an immigrant. Just because he was one, does mean I should automatically support open borders. I did not say you shouldn't be here. You presented me with a hypothetical regarding the current immigration situation. I answered that yes I would turn such a person away.

I never said I supported open borders

But under my hypothetical I likely wouldnt be here today because of your policy

Its so easy for you to say send them back. You've never known the kind of situation my ancestors faced. You've never known dictatorship, religious persecution, lack of basic freedoms, the possibility of being imprisoned for who you love or speaking out against the government, or a country torn apart by civil war.

[Grave_n_idle]

I agree a lot of the problems are with class rather then multiculturalism. Although, in the US at least, class and race tend to be rather connected.

There's truth to that, but it's important to think about the sequence of cause and effect.

As to immigration, I am iffy on the concept. I think countries do have the right to determine who can cross their borders, in fact I think that is rather necessary to the stability of a society.

It's not 'necessary' unless you are bound to 'national identity' as your governing principle. If you accepted that the modern common 'nationstate' is a relatively new invention, and considered solutions that involved stability on both a greater and lesser scale, national borders are largely irrelevant.

[Grave_n_idle]

When someone from a different culture does something illegal, it's the crime that's the problem. Treat the real problem.

The crime is a symptom.

But it's the crime part that is illegal. Non-criminal symptoms aren't criminal.

When people from a different culture consistently do more illegal things than people from the core culture, treating the symptoms (reducing the crime rate) may be better accomplished by removing the high-crime cultures.

Sure. And since brain tumors only occur in brains, the best treatment is to remove everyone's brain.

[Grave_n_idle]

'Moving massive amounts of people' is going to happen, anyway.

Even if estimates of rising sea levels were massively wrong - they discuss a real phenomenon - and one that is going to displace hundreds of millions of people. Soon.

And that's not the only environmental change that is going to trigger mass-migration.

So we really need to work out how we're going to deal with this issue before it becomes a problem.

We are gonna need a bigger wall it appears.

I wish that this wasn't a real 'argument' that's actually being made.

[Des-Bal]

A country with a developed infrastructure, a stable government, and a functioning police system has nothing to fear from immigration.

[The East Marches]

I already mentioned my father was an immigrant. Just because he was one, does mean I should automatically support open borders. I did not say you shouldn't be here. You presented me with a hypothetical regarding the current immigration situation. I answered that yes I would turn such a person away.

I never said I supported open borders

But under my hypothetical I likely wouldnt be here today because of your policy

Its so easy for you to say send them back. You've never known the kind of situation my ancestors faced. You've never known dictatorship, religious persecution, lack of basic freedoms, the possibility of being imprisoned for who you love or speaking out against the government, or a country torn apart by civil war.

>implying I'd want to send you back

I thought you were going on about how we should let anybody in because persecution etc. etc.

So what if you wouldn't be here under such a policy, you are already here today and so am I. We don't make decisions based on what was best for us in the past but what is best for us in the present/best future outcome.

[The East Marches]

We are gonna need a bigger wall it appears.

I wish that this wasn't a real 'argument' that's actually being made.

That was meant as a joke tbh. Though it'd be an effectively slogan for encouraging a Dutch style solution to the sea trying to drown us.

[Novus America]

A country with a developed infrastructure, a stable government, and a functioning police system has nothing to fear from immigration.

And what if our infrastructure, policing and government are inadequate? Said problems woould have to be addressed before immigration was increased.

[The of Japan]

Which is of course telling. Anti-multiculturalism is so far out of the mainstream that none of the major parties espouse it as policy.

Yes, Canadians clearly lack backbone to say what must be said :^)

Though in more seriousness, I suspect you may soon be affected by what the rest of the West is going through. I wish you lot good luck.

What's your opinion on Trudeau?