Mass immigration: should we embrace it or not?

[San Lumen]

so what would you have said to my great grandfather who left Romania with his uncle for the United States to escape the pogroms and with little money and nothing more than the hope and dream to build a new life? It's quite possible your ancestors did the same thing. What would you say to them?

My own father was an immigrant. I would tell him tough luck, sucks to be you. Unlike others, he does recognize the need for control in immigration and the right of countries to deny people entry. Why you think that being the descendent of an immigrant means you should support open borders is beyond me.

No. We don't need more labour from the developing world. Rising 457 visas and the slow destruction of TAFE have gone hand in hand with free trade in destroying the power of the Australian working class, both the skilled and unskilled parts of it. Not just that, it poaches valuable skills from developing nations that need it far more than we do. Let's take in more refugees and less economic migrants.

But what good does more refugees do when mass automation is on the horizon and we've already lots of people soon to be surplused? There are limited resources and you do need to generate wealth somehow. The longer we can get out of the working life of others the better for us in the long run. We are looking at a shortage of doctors etc. with an aging population. While skilled immigration is not a permenant solution, as we need to revise our system for producing doctors (too costly), we can use them to plug the 8-12 year gap in the meanwhile.

You would have told him tough luck? Do you even know what pogroms are? Guess what shortly after Romania was ravaged by World War One and when the Holocaust occurred those in his family who didn't get out were killed. Many did get out fortunately. Had my great grandfather not come to the US when he did I would most likely not be typing this.

[Opfornia]

So when it's for natives, you make an odd comparison to national socialism, but when it's for immigrants, you just brush it off as "oh it's just public education"?

No. I'm saying immigrants and natives should get an equal shake when it comes to job opportunities, and that the government should favor neither over the other, instead of government-control nonsense where certain people get favoritism because of the country on their passport. America is better than the glorified fiefdoms known as “Europe.”

That is all well and good, but why do our borders have to be any more open? Why should we encourage illegal immigrants to forgo legal immigration?

[Arkinesia]

You're the ones who voted a saturday morning cartoon character into office, not us. And who is preaching pretty much the exact opposite of what you are saying, so maybe you should tone down the "America" thing a bit over the next four years.

“Your argument is wrong because of something you had no control over! It is not possible for you to be talking of a state of should rather than a state of is!”

If your argument is like that, are you also in favor of abolishing taxes and all other duties/services citizens are expected to offer their respective states too? If the particular state should not show any favoritism towards its own citizens, why should they show any favoritism towards it either?

No. People working within the US should pay taxes (and currently many do). That said, our tax system is fucked.

That is all well and good, but why do our borders have to be any more open? Why should we encourage illegal immigrants to forgo legal immigration?

Wha-?

How could any immigration be illegal if it is all legal? Your post confuses me.

Under my system there would be visas with the associate background checks etc. but there would be no quotas or restrictions on issuance of visas and permits. Quotas are racist. Full stop.

[The Alma Mater]

Under my system there would be visas with the associate background checks etc. but there would be no quotas or restrictions on issuance of visas and permits. Quotas are racist. Full stop.

Let us ask the native Americans and the Australian aboriginals what their experience with quotafree immigration was - and call them racists if they state it was not all that great.

[Opfornia]

That is all well and good, but why do our borders have to be any more open? Why should we encourage illegal immigrants to forgo legal immigration?

Wha-?

How could any immigration be illegal if it is all legal? Your post confuses me.

Under my system there would be visas with the associate background checks etc. but there would be no quotas or restrictions on issuance of visas and permits. Quotas are racist. Full stop.

Thank goodness we don't live under your system, illegal immigrants sheltered under Obama's policies TODAY are a burden on our welfare system. If we allowed anyone to enter and receive benefits without being able to fully contribute to society, we wouldn't be able to afford the amount of welfare those lowskilled and uneducated need.

[The Emerald Legion]

I am personally all for Mass Immigration, if the proper conditions are met to make it a beneficial process. Modern nations have, pretty much to the last, abandoned those conditions.

For Mass Immigration to be a beneficial process, a nation needs to...

A.) Either have no welfare system, or a well-regulated welfare system that excludes new migrants.

B.) Ensure they can be made use of by whatever industries require manual labor. Or whatever skills they may bring.

C.) Block them from the political process so as to avoid the nation being pirated by deliberate attempts at Mass immigration. Temporarily or permanently, dependent on how cautious you wish to be.

D.) Their children would HAVE to be educated in such a manner as to drive a wedge between them and their parents home culture.

E.) Last, and probably the most controversially we would require some form of tiered citizenship, to delineate between the immigrants and those who were born here and have earned the trust of the nation.

Mass Immigration is only good, if you intend to ruthlessly exploit the new labor base while minimizing their immediate impact on the existing structure of the nation.

You're the ones who voted a saturday morning cartoon character into office, not us. And who is preaching pretty much the exact opposite of what you are saying, so maybe you should tone down the "America" thing a bit over the next four years.

You do realize you're talking about America right?

We ARE a saturday morning cartoon character. And we're still more awesome than Europe.

I mean seriously, what else do you call a nation who invents a superweapon and then proceeds to try to convince everyone it's a good idea to use it for everything from farming, to warfare, to dickwaving via blocking out the sun with an artificial lunar eclipse? Immediately AFTER using it to massacre two cities?

What else do you call a nation that has, at varying points in history committed every crime under the sun, and for the most part, nobody gives a shit aside from some malcontents.

America is made of so much concentrated win that it doesn't MATTER if our approach to things is ethically horrible.

[Arkinesia]

Under my system there would be visas with the associate background checks etc. but there would be no quotas or restrictions on issuance of visas and permits. Quotas are racist. Full stop.

Let us ask the native Americans and the Australian aboriginals what their experience with quotafree immigration was - and call them racists if they state it was not all that great.

I'm not a bleeding heart culture conservative. No culture has any right beyond historical preservation. After that it's continue to innovate or get out of the way.

Thank goodness we don't live under your system, illegal immigrants sheltered under Obama's policies TODAY are a burden on our welfare system. If we allowed anyone to enter and receive benefits without being able to fully contribute to society, we wouldn't be able to afford the amount of welfare those lowskilled and uneducated need.

Dude, stop listening to talk radio and come back when you have actual facts on your side.

The claim you're making has been roundly debunked and is only supported by the clueless and the ignorant.

Besides, it fails on a basic logical level—are you suggesting that as many as 15 million people in this country are committing untracked welfare fraud? That's ludicrous.

[Grave_n_idle]

Name the benefits of mass immigration without mentioning ethnic dance, food, or cheap labor.

Not saying there aren't any benefits except ethnic dance or food but.. why this arbitrary requirement?

Culture and art are the best parts of a society. Ten centuries from now, historians aren't going to be looking back and saying 'well, America had a really good GNP' or 'the UK kept interest rates low'. They're going to say that there was a housing crisis, and that the richest nations in the world had people dying for lack of healthcare or food, or that we replaced our artists and philosophers with beancounters.

[Grave_n_idle]

Wha-?

How could any immigration be illegal if it is all legal? Your post confuses me.

Under my system there would be visas with the associate background checks etc. but there would be no quotas or restrictions on issuance of visas and permits. Quotas are racist. Full stop.

Thank goodness we don't live under your system, illegal immigrants sheltered under Obama's policies TODAY are a burden on our welfare system. If we allowed anyone to enter and receive benefits without being able to fully contribute to society, we wouldn't be able to afford the amount of welfare those lowskilled and uneducated need.

'Illegal' immigrants are far more likely to pay into the system than they are to take anything out. If anything, YOU are a burden on THEM.

What does your logic do with that?

[Ostroeuropa]

https://youtu.be/5tSYGfEg1IY
3 minutes.

French woman told they're longer no allowed to enter cafes, shops or to go out

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... paris-men/

A quiet Paris bar where men play cards and bet on horses has become the unlikely focus of a national row over alleged no-go zones for women in predominantly Muslim areas.

The bar in the impoverished north-eastern suburb of Sevran is accused of being one of many in France where women are effectively banned.

It's not immigration, it's annexation.

[Anastasia]

https://youtu.be/5tSYGfEg1IY
3 minutes.

French woman told they're longer no allowed to enter cafes, shops or to go out

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... paris-men/

A quiet Paris bar where men play cards and bet on horses has become the unlikely focus of a national row over alleged no-go zones for women in predominantly Muslim areas.

The bar in the impoverished north-eastern suburb of Sevran is accused of being one of many in France where women are effectively banned.

It's not immigration, it's annexation.

What a nice multicultural society France got here.

[Bakery Hill]

Under my system there would be visas with the associate background checks etc. but there would be no quotas or restrictions on issuance of visas and permits. Quotas are racist. Full stop.

Let us ask the native Americans and the Australian aboriginals what their experience with quotafree immigration was - and call them racists if they state it was not all that great.

I've been quite moderate on this issue, but this is pushing my boundaries. Those were invasions, not immigration. They came armed, without the consent of the authorities, with the intention of setting up their own society. The two phenomena are very different.

[San Lumen]

https://youtu.be/5tSYGfEg1IY
3 minutes.

French woman told they're longer no allowed to enter cafes, shops or to go out

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... paris-men/

A quiet Paris bar where men play cards and bet on horses has become the unlikely focus of a national row over alleged no-go zones for women in predominantly Muslim areas.

The bar in the impoverished north-eastern suburb of Sevran is accused of being one of many in France where women are effectively banned.

It's not immigration, it's annexation.

Ok i don't agree with that at all but i still do not believe you should ban immigration. What would you have said to my great grandfather who came to the United States with his uncle to escape the pogroms and had nothing more in his pocket then the hope and dream to build a new life.
Shortly after Romania was ravaged by World War One and when the Holocaust occurred those in his family who didn't get out were killed. Many did get out fortunately. Had my great grandfather not come to the US when he did I would most likely not be typing this.

[Grinning Dragon]

https://youtu.be/5tSYGfEg1IY
3 minutes.

French woman told they're longer no allowed to enter cafes, shops or to go out

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... paris-men/

A quiet Paris bar where men play cards and bet on horses has become the unlikely focus of a national row over alleged no-go zones for women in predominantly Muslim areas.

The bar in the impoverished north-eastern suburb of Sevran is accused of being one of many in France where women are effectively banned.

It's not immigration, it's annexation.

That is just pants on head fucking retarded.
What needs to happen is a bunch of women need to go as one big ass group and troll the shit out of them.

[Southerly Gentleman]

https://youtu.be/5tSYGfEg1IY
3 minutes.

French woman told they're longer no allowed to enter cafes, shops or to go out

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... paris-men/

A quiet Paris bar where men play cards and bet on horses has become the unlikely focus of a national row over alleged no-go zones for women in predominantly Muslim areas.

The bar in the impoverished north-eastern suburb of Sevran is accused of being one of many in France where women are effectively banned.

It's not immigration, it's annexation.

Its okay as long as we have a more diverse, multicultural, inclusive world. I mean its not actually inclusive if we have women getting barred from restaurants, but who gives a shit, cuz multiculturalism ftw!

[Southerly Gentleman]

https://youtu.be/5tSYGfEg1IY
3 minutes.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... paris-men/



It's not immigration, it's annexation.

That is just pants on head fucking retarded.
What needs to happen is a bunch of women need to go as one big ass group and troll the shit out of them.

Theyd better be careful, lest they get beheaded.

[San Lumen]

https://youtu.be/5tSYGfEg1IY
3 minutes.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... paris-men/



It's not immigration, it's annexation.

Its okay as long as we have a more diverse, multicultural, inclusive world. I mean its not actually inclusive if we have women getting barred from restaurants, but who gives a shit, cuz multiculturalism ftw!

I am all for a more diverse multicultural and inclusive world but stuff like that on that outskirts of Paris is not ok.

[Grinning Dragon]

That is just pants on head fucking retarded.
What needs to happen is a bunch of women need to go as one big ass group and troll the shit out of them.

Theyd better be careful, lest they get beheaded.

I wonder how they would react during Mardi Gras here. LOL

[Anastasia]

Its okay as long as we have a more diverse, multicultural, inclusive world. I mean its not actually inclusive if we have women getting barred from restaurants, but who gives a shit, cuz multiculturalism ftw!

I am all for a more diverse multicultural and inclusive world but stuff like that on that outskirts of Paris is not ok.

But they are just continuing what they used to do in their home countires, did you not want a multicultural society?

[Opfornia]

Dude, stop listening to talk radio and come back when you have actual facts on your side.

The claim you're making has been roundly debunked and is only supported by the clueless and the ignorant.

Besides, it fails on a basic logical level—are you suggesting that as many as 15 million people in this country are committing untracked welfare fraud? That's ludicrous.

Get out of your globalisation bubble, you're the only one touting rhetoric. We don't have enough jobs now, the last thing we need is a mass immigration of unskilled workers to benefit off of welfare and make the unemployment situation even worse. You're refusing to acknowledge the economic situation of millions of Americans, there simply isn't enough work to go around, and the more time goes on the less we will have.

[Ostroeuropa]

https://youtu.be/5tSYGfEg1IY
3 minutes.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... paris-men/



It's not immigration, it's annexation.

Ok i don't agree with that at all but i still do not believe you should ban immigration. What would you have said to my great grandfather who came to the United States with his uncle to escape the pogroms and had nothing more in his pocket then the hope and dream to build a new life.
Shortly after Romania was ravaged by World War One and when the Holocaust occurred those in his family who didn't get out were killed. Many did get out fortunately. Had my great grandfather not come to the US when he did I would most likely not be typing this.

There's only a few viable options:

One:
Ditch multiculturalism and begin a regime of forcing Muslims to integrate. Expect riots and do not be afraid to crack down with violence, imprisonments, confiscate property, and deport people who do so.

Ban circumcision, ban them home schooling, ban hijabs, ban gender segregation (Even in houses of worship), etc, etc, etc. force them into public schools, etc. Accept they need to change and go to war with their culture, backed by the truncheon should they rebel.

Change our media to negatively portray their culture and positively portray those who integrate. Sideline and no-platform progressives who complain about any of this.

This has the benefit of allowing muslims already integrated to largely escape the crackdown.

Two:
Deport the muslims.

Three:
Allow the continuing corrosion of society by refusing to abandon progressive dogma, until racial tensions reach the point where race riots or race war occurs.

I see no other alternatives.

Allowing further immigration while these problems persist is national suicide. We need to deal with the ones already here first. If someone has an alternative, by all means.

[Quaxoglia]

We should embrace it. They're humans, just like us.

[Southerly Gentleman]

We should embrace it. They're humans, just like us.

we should embrace murderers. They're humans, just like us.

[Ostroeuropa]

Its okay as long as we have a more diverse, multicultural, inclusive world. I mean its not actually inclusive if we have women getting barred from restaurants, but who gives a shit, cuz multiculturalism ftw!

I am all for a more diverse multicultural and inclusive world but stuff like that on that outskirts of Paris is not ok.

You're essentially admitting that their culture is not okay. Like they said, they're doing it like back in the old country.
So you aren't actually a multiculturalist if you concede their culture is unacceptable in our society.

[Grave_n_idle]

Ok i don't agree with that at all but i still do not believe you should ban immigration. What would you have said to my great grandfather who came to the United States with his uncle to escape the pogroms and had nothing more in his pocket then the hope and dream to build a new life.
Shortly after Romania was ravaged by World War One and when the Holocaust occurred those in his family who didn't get out were killed. Many did get out fortunately. Had my great grandfather not come to the US when he did I would most likely not be typing this.

There's only a few viable options:

One:
Ditch multiculturalism and begin a regime of forcing Muslims to integrate. Expect riots and do not be afraid to crack down with violence, imprisonments, confiscate property, and deport people who do so.

Ban circumcision, ban them home schooling, ban hijabs, ban gender segregation (Even in houses of worship), etc, etc, etc. force them into public schools, etc. Accept they need to change and go to war with their culture, backed by the truncheon should they rebel.

Change our media to negatively portray their culture and positively portray those who integrate. Sideline and no-platform progressives who complain about any of this.

This has the benefit of allowing muslims already integrated to largely escape the crackdown.

Two:
Deport the muslims.

Three:
Allow the continuing corrosion of society by refusing to abandon progressive dogma, until racial tensions reach the point where race riots or race war occurs.

I see no other alternatives.

Allowing further immigration while these problems persist is national suicide. We need to deal with the ones already here first. If someone has an alternative, by all means.

Or, alternatively, embrace multiculturalism. Where multiculturalism is used as an excuse for breaking the law, don't tolerate it - but that's not because of multiculturalism, it's because it's breaking the law.

I suspect you 'see no other alternatives' because you choose not to.