Mass immigration: should we embrace it or not?

[Crockerland]

As a side note, this is why unemployment will rise temporarily in the early part of Trump's term. People feeling optimistic about the country will rejoin the labor force, but given that they won't find jobs immediately, unemployment will increase.

That doesn't make any sense. If the people who aren't able to get jobs are already not part of the labor force, then unemployment will stay the same, not increase.

[Farnhamia]

As a side note, this is why unemployment will rise temporarily in the early part of Trump's term. People feeling optimistic about the country will rejoin the labor force, but given that they won't find jobs immediately, unemployment will increase.

That doesn't make any sense. If the people who aren't able to get jobs are already not part of the labor force, then unemployment will stay the same, not increase.

He means they'll register for unemployment benefits or appear on the government statistics sheets in some other way.

[Novus America]

As a side note, this is why unemployment will rise temporarily in the early part of Trump's term. People feeling optimistic about the country will rejoin the labor force, but given that they won't find jobs immediately, unemployment will increase.

That doesn't make any sense. If the people who aren't able to get jobs are already not part of the labor force, then unemployment will stay the same, not increase.

If people who are not looking for jobs start looking unemployment increases. Unemployment only measures people who are actively looking for jobs, not those without jobs.

[San Lumen]

That doesn't make any sense. If the people who aren't able to get jobs are already not part of the labor force, then unemployment will stay the same, not increase.

If people who are not looking for jobs start looking unemployment increases. Unemployment only measures people who are actively looking for jobs, not those without jobs.

Why must everything always be threadjacked? This is a discussion about immigration not jobs and unemployment

[Novus America]

If people who are not looking for jobs start looking unemployment increases. Unemployment only measures people who are actively looking for jobs, not those without jobs.

Why must everything always be threadjacked? This is a discussion about immigration not jobs and unemployment

In this case it is not a thread jack. It is very relevant. Unemployment and jobs are a major part of the immigration debate. If the agruement is we need more immigration because unemployment is low, or fewer because work force participation is also low, it is completely relevant.

[Major-Tom]

That's not what full employment in economic terms means. It means that the number of job openings and people looking for work are about equal, not that all adults have a job.

As a side note, this is why unemployment will rise temporarily in the early part of Trump's term. People feeling optimistic about the country will rejoin the labor force, but given that they won't find jobs immediately, unemployment will increase.

Elaborate tho. Like...wouldn't optimism help fam?

[Southerly Gentleman]

As a side note, this is why unemployment will rise temporarily in the early part of Trump's term. People feeling optimistic about the country will rejoin the labor force, but given that they won't find jobs immediately, unemployment will increase.

Elaborate tho. Like...wouldn't optimism help fam?

unemployment only measures people who are actively looking for jobs, so in the early Trump period where you have optimistic people searching for employment again (but perhaps in the short measure not finding any), the unemployment stats will go up.

[Major-Tom]

Elaborate tho. Like...wouldn't optimism help fam?

unemployment only measures people who are actively looking for jobs, so in the early Trump period where you have optimistic people searching for employment again (but perhaps in the short measure not finding any), the unemployment stats will go up.

I can see it, yeah.

[Bakery Hill]

That doesn't make any sense. If the people who aren't able to get jobs are already not part of the labor force, then unemployment will stay the same, not increase.

If people who are not looking for jobs start looking unemployment increases. Unemployment only measures people who are actively looking for jobs, not those without jobs.

That's so fucking stupid.

[Dooom35796821595]

If people who are not looking for jobs start looking unemployment increases. Unemployment only measures people who are actively looking for jobs, not those without jobs.

That's so fucking stupid.

Yup. That's why jobseekers is less about getting people jobs, or supplying financial support then trying to get them off jobseekers to "reduce" the unemployment statistics.

[Ausralian state]

Nope, its not our problem to save the poor and starving of the world. What we can do is take those who will prove useful. Sort them out by profession, education etc. Take the best and leave the rest.

Agree with this I'd not welcome immigration
Of single men family's n small children orphans. And people who can contribute to society in general I'd not allow un screened refugees fro Arab states what so ever and only limited number at a time doctors professions science medical would be welcome architects and construction experts the rest would be barred

[Bakery Hill]

That's so fucking stupid.

Yup. That's why jobseekers is less about getting people jobs, or supplying financial support then trying to get them off jobseekers to "reduce" the unemployment statistics.

Don't want to weaken that reserve army of labour.

*puffs on cigar*

[San Lumen]

Nope, its not our problem to save the poor and starving of the world. What we can do is take those who will prove useful. Sort them out by profession, education etc. Take the best and leave the rest.

Agree with this I'd not welcome immigration
Of single men family's n small children orphans. And people who can contribute to society in general I'd not allow un screened refugees fro Arab states what so ever and only limited number at a time doctors professions science medical would be welcome architects and construction experts the rest would be barred

so what would you have said to my great grandfather who left Romania with his uncle for the United States to escape the pogroms and with little money and nothing more than the hope and dream to build a new life? It's quite possible your ancestors did the same thing. What would you say to them?

[Bakery Hill]

Nope, its not our problem to save the poor and starving of the world. What we can do is take those who will prove useful. Sort them out by profession, education etc. Take the best and leave the rest.

Agree with this I'd not welcome immigration
Of single men family's n small children orphans. And people who can contribute to society in general I'd not allow un screened refugees fro Arab states what so ever and only limited number at a time doctors professions science medical would be welcome architects and construction experts the rest would be barred

No. We don't need more labour from the developing world. Rising 457 visas and the slow destruction of TAFE have gone hand in hand with free trade in destroying the power of the Australian working class, both the skilled and unskilled parts of it. Not just that, it poaches valuable skills from developing nations that need it far more than we do. Let's take in more refugees and less economic migrants.

[Bakery Hill]

Agree with this I'd not welcome immigration
Of single men family's n small children orphans. And people who can contribute to society in general I'd not allow un screened refugees fro Arab states what so ever and only limited number at a time doctors professions science medical would be welcome architects and construction experts the rest would be barred

so what would you have said to my great grandfather who left Romania with his uncle for the United States to escape the pogroms and with little money and nothing more than the hope and dream to build a new life? It's quite possible your ancestors did the same thing. What would you say to them?

"Fuck off we're full" I'm guessing?

[The Conez Imperium]

Agree with this I'd not welcome immigration
Of single men family's n small children orphans. And people who can contribute to society in general I'd not allow un screened refugees fro Arab states what so ever and only limited number at a time doctors professions science medical would be welcome architects and construction experts the rest would be barred

No. We don't need more labour from the developing world. Rising 457 visas and the slow destruction of TAFE have gone hand in hand with free trade in destroying the power of the Australian working class, both the skilled and unskilled parts of it. Not just that, it poaches valuable skills from developing nations that need it far more than we do. Let's take in more refugees and less economic migrants.

Funnily enough, I have heard stories where there are not enough people doing trades causing a shortage of those skills. What multi-faceted grey side should I take?

[Bakery Hill]

No. We don't need more labour from the developing world. Rising 457 visas and the slow destruction of TAFE have gone hand in hand with free trade in destroying the power of the Australian working class, both the skilled and unskilled parts of it. Not just that, it poaches valuable skills from developing nations that need it far more than we do. Let's take in more refugees and less economic migrants.

Funnily enough, I have heard stories where there are not enough people doing trades causing a shortage of those skills. What multi-faceted grey side should I take?

A trade is a guaranteed well paid job, around where I live they're snapped up quick smart. For the most part however they go to family members and close friends of those already employed well before they're advertised on the job market. And if those stories even are true it means we need more vocational training in high schools and better funded TAFE colleges. Both of these are being gutted.

[The East Marches]

Agree with this I'd not welcome immigration
Of single men family's n small children orphans. And people who can contribute to society in general I'd not allow un screened refugees fro Arab states what so ever and only limited number at a time doctors professions science medical would be welcome architects and construction experts the rest would be barred

so what would you have said to my great grandfather who left Romania with his uncle for the United States to escape the pogroms and with little money and nothing more than the hope and dream to build a new life? It's quite possible your ancestors did the same thing. What would you say to them?

My own father was an immigrant. I would tell him tough luck, sucks to be you. Unlike others, he does recognize the need for control in immigration and the right of countries to deny people entry. Why you think that being the descendent of an immigrant means you should support open borders is beyond me.

Agree with this I'd not welcome immigration
Of single men family's n small children orphans. And people who can contribute to society in general I'd not allow un screened refugees fro Arab states what so ever and only limited number at a time doctors professions science medical would be welcome architects and construction experts the rest would be barred

No. We don't need more labour from the developing world. Rising 457 visas and the slow destruction of TAFE have gone hand in hand with free trade in destroying the power of the Australian working class, both the skilled and unskilled parts of it. Not just that, it poaches valuable skills from developing nations that need it far more than we do. Let's take in more refugees and less economic migrants.

But what good does more refugees do when mass automation is on the horizon and we've already lots of people soon to be surplused? There are limited resources and you do need to generate wealth somehow. The longer we can get out of the working life of others the better for us in the long run. We are looking at a shortage of doctors etc. with an aging population. While skilled immigration is not a permenant solution, as we need to revise our system for producing doctors (too costly), we can use them to plug the 8-12 year gap in the meanwhile.

[Arkinesia]

We're at full employment currently. For over two quarters, unemployment has stood at or below 5%.

Now, it would be nice to see some of those people moving up the economic ladder, but there's no question that American-born work participation is right about where it needs to be.

We are not at full employment, that's just laughable. The labor participation rate remains low. November showed 95 million Americans not in the labor force. That can partly be explained because the boomers are retiring and refusing to die, but it cannot account for that large of a number.

There are 75 million people in this country born between 1946 and 1964. And that's not counting The Greatest Generation, of which there are still some 10-11 million. Also consider that 24 million Americans are disabled to the point of being unable to work (which, granted, would overlap some with the aforementioned groups).

It's not hard to imagine that well over 85%-90% of the non-participating labor force is in fact retired or disabled and it would not be possible for them to remain in the labor force, if not all of that group.

So when it's for natives, you make an odd comparison to national socialism, but when it's for immigrants, you just brush it off as "oh it's just public education"?

No. I'm saying immigrants and natives should get an equal shake when it comes to job opportunities, and that the government should favor neither over the other, instead of government-control nonsense where certain people get favoritism because of the country on their passport. America is better than the glorified fiefdoms known as “Europe.”

[Arvenia]

Brit here. I live very close to a neighbourhood that is predominantly Muslim, I hear Arabic or Urdu everyday. The place is a tip, every single shop shop on that street has been raided by immigration at some point. I've been assaulted for not agreeing or tolerating the degenerate tenets of Islam, I've even been verbally abused for being half British and half Pakistani. These people are impossible to please and zealous. Islam is the anti thesis of western culture and will continue to be so until modernisation happens. But the indoctrination of their children makes this difficult. That neighbourhood is the reason why I barely went outside several years ago, I've had to take up Boxing as a means to defend myself. There are exceptions, I know some very tolerant Muslims. But for the most part they're thugs. These are 3rd 4th generation migrants btw, the new ones are a lot worse.

There are valid security and social reasons for us to not accept migrants, asides from the fact it's not our responsibility. Merkel's immigration policy messed us all up. I implore Germans not to vote for her again, even with her recent right wing 180.

So is also the EU. It made immigration lot worse with people living in fear of being victims of crimes committed by migrants and Muslims calling for sharia, even if some of them fled persecution back in the Middle East like ISIS.

[Skyviolia]

The truth lies in the middle here. No, we should not open our gates to everyone of everyone who comes in without doing ostensive background checks, but we should not be ostracizing, discriminating or limiting a certain group of people.

[Baltenstein]

No. I'm saying immigrants and natives should get an equal shake when it comes to job opportunities, and that the government should favor neither over the other, instead of government-control nonsense where certain people get favoritism because of the country on their passport. America is better than the glorified fiefdoms known as “Europe.”

You're the ones who voted a saturday morning cartoon character into office, not us. And who is preaching pretty much the exact opposite of what you are saying, so maybe you should tone down the "America" thing a bit over the next four years.

If your argument is like that, are you also in favor of abolishing taxes and all other duties/services citizens are expected to offer their respective states too? If the particular state should not show any favoritism towards its own citizens, why should they show any favoritism towards it either?

[Bakery Hill]

[

No. We don't need more labour from the developing world. Rising 457 visas and the slow destruction of TAFE have gone hand in hand with free trade in destroying the power of the Australian working class, both the skilled and unskilled parts of it. Not just that, it poaches valuable skills from developing nations that need it far more than we do. Let's take in more refugees and less economic migrants.

But what good does more refugees do when mass automation is on the horizon and we've already lots of people soon to be surplused? There are limited resources and you do need to generate wealth somehow. The longer we can get out of the working life of others the better for us in the long run. We are looking at a shortage of doctors etc. with an aging population. While skilled immigration is not a permenant solution, as we need to revise our system for producing doctors (too costly), we can use them to plug the 8-12 year gap in the meanwhile.

This slipped past me, apologies.

I can see where you're coming from, but I'm advocating all this in the framework of a socialist society that wants to expand and develop, and be that beacon of the poor and oppressed of the world (like it says in my sig). So far as I can see we continue this automation in the framework of neoliberal capitalism we are all fucked, and it doesn't matter how many/few refugees we let in.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

so what would you have said to my great grandfather who left Romania with his uncle for the United States to escape the pogroms and with little money and nothing more than the hope and dream to build a new life? It's quite possible your ancestors did the same thing. What would you say to them?

"Fuck off we're full" I'm guessing?

Depending on the opinion of the people and whether the government has got what they want, that's what I'd say.

[Bakery Hill]

"Fuck off we're full" I'm guessing?

Depending on the opinion of the people and whether the government has got what they want, that's what I'd say.

I don't understand what you mean.