Mass immigration: should we embrace it or not?

[Purpelia]

I really do not understand why people are so god dam obsessed with enforcing some sort of misguided (at best) moral consistency to the issue. A nation and its people must always do what ever is necessary to ensure their own prosperity and self preservation. Morality, justice and all that other stuff not only need not factor in but is directly detrimental. The only consistent thing about a nations foreign policy that other nations can look to should be that it's a sociopathic selfish bastard.

[Braecland]

But if we do that we risk disrupting the Illipolska process of realigning the Rust Belt with Korwin-Mikke and the Visegrád Group.

/stale

Rust Belt Poles?

What a great band name! Poland had Polka too.

[Elola]

Yes, we should. Many of these refugees have gone through hours of painful traveling, and almost all anti-immigration rhetoric is just bullshit spewed by the alt-right and xenophobes. Immigration only strengthens our communities.

[San Lumen]

Yes, we should. Many of these refugees have gone through hours of painful traveling, and almost all anti-immigration rhetoric is just bullshit spewed by the alt-right and xenophobes. Immigration only strengthens our communities.

I concur completely. To the anti immigration people my great grandfather left Romania and came to the US with his uncle to escape the pogroms and have a better life. Should he have stayed and risked losing his home and possibly his life?

[The Alma Mater]

Yes, we should. Many of these refugees have gone through hours of painful traveling, and almost all anti-immigration rhetoric is just bullshit spewed by the alt-right and xenophobes. Immigration only strengthens our communities.

I concur completely. To the anti immigration people my great grandfather left Romania and came to the US with his uncle to escape the pogroms and have a better life. Should he have stayed and risked losing his home and possibly his life?

Did he come to his new country to make a contribution, to aid his new home as it helped him ?
Or did he come there to mock and abuse the native population without ever contributing something of value ?

Intent matters.

[San Lumen]

I concur completely. To the anti immigration people my great grandfather left Romania and came to the US with his uncle to escape the pogroms and have a better life. Should he have stayed and risked losing his home and possibly his life?

Did he come to his new country to make a contribution, to aid his new home as it helped him ?
Or did he come there to mock and abuse the native population without ever contributing something of value ?

Intent matters.

Well he arrived in his early teens if I remember correctly. But he came legally, got an education and job as builder. Is that what you mean by contribution?

[Kohr]

Yes, we should. Many of these refugees have gone through hours of painful traveling, and almost all anti-immigration rhetoric is just bullshit spewed by the alt-right and xenophobes. Immigration only strengthens our communities.

Agreed. No political rhetoric or irrational fears should be enough to overpower basic human decency.

[The Alma Mater]

Did he come to his new country to make a contribution, to aid his new home as it helped him ?
Or did he come there to mock and abuse the native population without ever contributing something of value ?

Intent matters.

Well he arrived in his early teens if I remember correctly. But he came legally, got an education and job as builder. Is that what you mean by contribution?

That certainly counts, yes.

[San Lumen]

Yes, we should. Many of these refugees have gone through hours of painful traveling, and almost all anti-immigration rhetoric is just bullshit spewed by the alt-right and xenophobes. Immigration only strengthens our communities.

Agreed. No political rhetoric or irrational fears should be enough to overpower basic human decency.

I agree and many people in the US and Europe especially the UK are descendants of immigrants. So all this anti immigration talk is basically spitting on your own ancestors. They left their countries of origin like my great grandfather did to seek a better life. In my families case the pogroms and the the brewing World War.

[Dooom35796821595]

Agreed. No political rhetoric or irrational fears should be enough to overpower basic human decency.

I agree and many people in the US and Europe especially the UK are descendants of immigrants. So all this anti immigration talk is basically spitting on your own ancestors. They left their countries of origin like my great grandfather did to seek a better life. In my families case the pogroms and the the brewing World War.

What are you talking about, we all know Brits are created in citizen creation vats, then given various backstories.

[Novus America]

Agreed. No political rhetoric or irrational fears should be enough to overpower basic human decency.

I agree and many people in the US and Europe especially the UK are descendants of immigrants. So all this anti immigration talk is basically spitting on your own ancestors. They left their countries of origin like my great grandfather did to seek a better life. In my families case the pogroms and the the brewing World War.

Few people I think are saying ban all immigrants. Immigration is a policy, and such the policy should be to the benefit of the society immlementing it.

There is a midddle ground between "open borders" and "ban them all".

Immigration should be allowed, but immigrants need to be carefully screened and interviewed to be sure they will be a benefit to the society, and can and will integrate, sleek the language, obey the law, and contribute without harming local wages.

If someone does not meet the above criteria they should not be allowed to immigrate.
As far as refugees go, you are only required to temporarily house them and provide their basic needs. You are NOT required to give them permanent residency or citizenship.

Refugees meeting the criteria can be offered permanent residency. But this who do not can be kept in refugee camps and then returned when whatever issue the are claiming asylum from is resolved.

[Novus America]

I agree and many people in the US and Europe especially the UK are descendants of immigrants. So all this anti immigration talk is basically spitting on your own ancestors. They left their countries of origin like my great grandfather did to seek a better life. In my families case the pogroms and the the brewing World War.

What are you talking about, we all know Brits are created in citizen creation vats, then given various backstories.

Well people are grown in biological "vats" (uteri) and given various backstories (upbringing and education). And thus molded into members of society.

[San Lumen]

I agree and many people in the US and Europe especially the UK are descendants of immigrants. So all this anti immigration talk is basically spitting on your own ancestors. They left their countries of origin like my great grandfather did to seek a better life. In my families case the pogroms and the the brewing World War.

Few people I think are saying ban all immigrants. Immigration is a policy, and such the policy should be to the benefit of the society immlementing it.

There is a midddle ground between "open borders" and "ban them all".

Immigration should be allowed, but immigrants need to be carefully screened and interviewed to be sure they will be a benefit to the society, and can and will integrate, sleek the language, obey the law, and contribute without harming local wages.

If someone does not meet the above criteria they should not be allowed to immigrate.
As far as refugees go, you are only required to temporarily house them and provide their basic needs. You are NOT required to give them permanent residency or citizenship.

Refugees meeting the criteria can be offered permanent residency. But this who do not can be kept in refugee camps and then returned when whatever issue the are claiming asylum from is resolved.

I don't believe in open borders either. And how are you going to possibly interview every immigrant and and will you determine whether they meet your criteria especially benefit to society? Couldn't a racist immigration officer decide they don't want to allow anyone who is non white to enter the country?

Someone from Syria who comes to Germany and wants to seeks a better life and escape war shouldn't be placed in a camp and then sent back to a country where there is nothing for them.

[Napkiraly]

There is nothing for them there because their country is destroyed. But it wont help if the country is left to stagnate because it's most talented have gone elsewhere. Brain drain is a real problem, you know.

[San Lumen]

There is nothing for them there because their country is destroyed. But it wont help if the country is left to stagnate because it's most talented have gone elsewhere. Brain drain is a real problem, you know.

So what are you going to do? send them all back? Overthrow the Syrian government?

[Napkiraly]

There is nothing for them there because their country is destroyed. But it wont help if the country is left to stagnate because it's most talented have gone elsewhere. Brain drain is a real problem, you know.

So what are you going to do? send them all back? Overthrow the Syrian government?

As much as I hate Assad he's the lesser evil at this point, so no. But yes, many should be encouraged to return and help rebuild their country.

[San Lumen]

So what are you going to do? send them all back? Overthrow the Syrian government?

As much as I hate Assad he's the lesser evil at this point, so no. But yes, many should be encouraged to return and help rebuild their country.

Assad is the lesser evil? And what are you going to do if they don't want to return?

[Aelex]

Assad is the lesser evil? And what are you going to do if they don't want to return?

We forcefully send them back.

[Napkiraly]

As much as I hate Assad he's the lesser evil at this point, so no. But yes, many should be encouraged to return and help rebuild their country.

Assad is the lesser evil? And what are you going to do if they don't want to return?

Compared to the myriad of shit groups that make up the FSA and ISIS? Yes, he is.

[Novus America]

Few people I think are saying ban all immigrants. Immigration is a policy, and such the policy should be to the benefit of the society immlementing it.

There is a midddle ground between "open borders" and "ban them all".

Immigration should be allowed, but immigrants need to be carefully screened and interviewed to be sure they will be a benefit to the society, and can and will integrate, sleek the language, obey the law, and contribute without harming local wages.

If someone does not meet the above criteria they should not be allowed to immigrate.
As far as refugees go, you are only required to temporarily house them and provide their basic needs. You are NOT required to give them permanent residency or citizenship.

Refugees meeting the criteria can be offered permanent residency. But this who do not can be kept in refugee camps and then returned when whatever issue the are claiming asylum from is resolved.

I don't believe in open borders either. And how are you going to possibly interview every immigrant and and will you determine whether they meet your criteria especially benefit to society? Couldn't a racist immigration officer decide they don't want to allow anyone who is non white to enter the country?

Someone from Syria who comes to Germany and wants to seeks a better life and escape war shouldn't be placed in a camp and then sent back to a country where there is nothing for them.

Well the system will never be perfect. Just like with hiring. But immigration officers should be properly trained, and those not doing their duties properly fired. Sure some good people might get left out and some bad people get through but again nothing is perfect.

Though you also have them wait a probationary suitable period, usually 5 years before they can apply for citizenship. If their behavior during said period is bad such as committing crimes or the are unable to meet they criteria during this time, take required classes etc., they can be deported.

They will need to be screened, tested and interviewed at least twice, once before immigrating and then again when applying for citizenship. This is how employment screening is often done it should be noted. Companies and the government already do this for many of their employees, especially those going into sensitive work.

How are you going to interview every immigrant? By only allowing a reasonable amount per year to immigrate. And having enough immigration officers. They will not be allowed to immigrate if they cannot be interviewed or if asylum seekers kept in camps until they can be.

Yes their will be some subjective judgment involved, and immigration officers needed to be selected and trained for good analytic abilities, and the ability to question and judge people well. Specialists with training and psychology, psychiatry and interrogation will be needed.

Somoeone from Syria might or might not be placed in camp until sent back, it would depend on if that person it's judged to meet the criteria or not.

The burden off proof is on the prospective immigrant.
They need to be able to demonstrate why they should be allowed to immigrate.

[Novus America]

As much as I hate Assad he's the lesser evil at this point, so no. But yes, many should be encouraged to return and help rebuild their country.

Assad is the lesser evil? And what are you going to do if they don't want to return?

Unless they can prove the are a legitimate refugee and sending them back endangers them, they will be sent back regardless of their wishes.

The burden of proof is on the asylum seeker. That is how refugee law works.

The outcome of a legal case is not based on what the plaintiff or petitioner wants, but what they can prove.

[The Gipper]

In my opinion, immigration isn't a problem, immigration can in fact be an asset. Unfortunately, a large chunk of the immigrants coming out of the middle east or Central America lack any skill or trade and the language skills to ever support themselves in the nations they are seeking to relocate to. They are seeking a "better life" because they've heard about all of the opportunities in the West, but after they've actually been here a while they will quickly discover there is very little opportunity for low skill workers, and no opportunity for low skill workers also facing a language barrier. They will be a permanent member of the absolute bottom rung of society, and will resent our society because this is not how it was supposed to be, there were supposed to be "opportunities" both economically and socially that simply are not available any more.

I don't personally feel most immigrants come to the US or the West with the goal of surviving on Welfare. It seems easier to believe they're goal is to go the same path our great-grandfathers did. But that path is gone, there is no longer a shortage of unskilled labor in America or the West in general, and there is no change that will give them the ability to add more than minimal value to any business. So they find themselves in the position to take welfare (if they have access to it) or have children here and live off their children's benefits.

That type of immigration is a serious problem, and we should work to prevent it. These people become a burden to the state and are logically likely to be more dangerous because they are facing hard barriers that will prevent any sort of social or economic fulfillment. It doesn't have to be Islamic terror, it breeds violence in general. We need to work to reduce the number of people with no path out of poverty, welfare, and the social stigma of failure. That fuels a resentment and bitterness that breeds violence against the society that they feel wronged them.

[San Lumen]

I don't believe in open borders either. And how are you going to possibly interview every immigrant and and will you determine whether they meet your criteria especially benefit to society? Couldn't a racist immigration officer decide they don't want to allow anyone who is non white to enter the country?

Someone from Syria who comes to Germany and wants to seeks a better life and escape war shouldn't be placed in a camp and then sent back to a country where there is nothing for them.

Well the system will never be perfect. Just like with hiring. But immigration officers should be properly trained, and those not doing their duties properly fired. Sure some good people might get left out and some bad people get through but again nothing is perfect.

Though you also have them wait a probationary suitable period, usually 5 years before they can apply for citizenship. If their behavior during said period is bad such as committing crimes or the are unable to meet they criteria during this time, take required classes etc., they can be deported.

They will need to be screened, tested and interviewed at least twice, once before immigrating and then again when applying for citizenship. This is how employment screening is often done it should be noted. Companies and the government already do this for many of their employees, especially those going into sensitive work.

How are you going to interview every immigrant? By only allowing a reasonable amount per year to immigrate. And having enough immigration officers. They will not be allowed to immigrate if they cannot be interviewed or if asylum seekers kept in camps until they can be.

Yes their will be some subjective judgment involved, and immigration officers needed to be selected and trained for good analytic abilities, and the ability to question and judge people well. Specialists with training and psychology, psychiatry and interrogation will be needed.

Somoeone from Syria might or might not be placed in camp until sent back, it would depend on if that person it's judged to meet the criteria or not.

The burden off proof is on the prospective immigrant.
They need to be able to demonstrate why they should be allowed to immigrate.

So what would you been your assement of my great grandfather and his uncle escaping the pogroms and the impeding world war?

[Arkinesia]

In my opinion, immigration isn't a problem, immigration can in fact be an asset. Unfortunately, a large chunk of the immigrants coming out of the middle east or Central America lack any skill or trade and the language skills to ever support themselves in the nations they are seeking to relocate to. They are seeking a "better life" because they've heard about all of the opportunities in the West, but after they've actually been here a while they will quickly discover there is very little opportunity for low skill workers, and no opportunity for low skill workers also facing a language barrier. They will be a permanent member of the absolute bottom rung of society, and will resent our society because this is not how it was supposed to be, there were supposed to be "opportunities" both economically and socially that simply are not available any more.

I don't personally feel most immigrants come to the US or the West with the goal of surviving on Welfare. It seems easier to believe they're goal is to go the same path our great-grandfathers did. But that path is gone, there is no longer a shortage of unskilled labor in America or the West in general, and there is no change that will give them the ability to add more than minimal value to any business. So they find themselves in the position to take welfare (if they have access to it) or have children here and live off their children's benefits.

That type of immigration is a serious problem, and we should work to prevent it. These people become a burden to the state and are logically likely to be more dangerous because they are facing hard barriers that will prevent any sort of social or economic fulfillment. It doesn't have to be Islamic terror, it breeds violence in general. We need to work to reduce the number of people with no path out of poverty, welfare, and the social stigma of failure. That fuels a resentment and bitterness that breeds violence against the society that they feel wronged them.

1. Reagan was an open borders advocate. You should take after him more.
2. Let's deal with where this makes no sense.

In my opinion, immigration isn't a problem, immigration can in fact be an asset. Unfortunately, a large chunk of the immigrants coming out of the middle east or Central America lack any skill or trade and the language skills to ever support themselves in the nations they are seeking to relocate to. They are seeking a "better life" because they've heard about all of the opportunities in the West, but after they've actually been here a while they will quickly discover there is very little opportunity for low skill workers, and no opportunity for low skill workers also facing a language barrier.

The US isn't Europe. What you said is somewhat applicable to Europe, but not to the US or Canada.

That type of immigration is a serious problem, and we should work to prevent it. These people become a burden to the state and are logically likely to be more dangerous because they are facing hard barriers that will prevent any sort of social or economic fulfillment.

And we do that by opening the borders and making it easier for immigrants (and everyone, for that matter) to acquire marketable labor skills and create a freer labor market that rewards those with the most will, because they will be of relatively equal skill.

[Opfornia]

In my opinion, immigration isn't a problem, immigration can in fact be an asset. Unfortunately, a large chunk of the immigrants coming out of the middle east or Central America lack any skill or trade and the language skills to ever support themselves in the nations they are seeking to relocate to. They are seeking a "better life" because they've heard about all of the opportunities in the West, but after they've actually been here a while they will quickly discover there is very little opportunity for low skill workers, and no opportunity for low skill workers also facing a language barrier.

The US isn't Europe. What you said is somewhat applicable to Europe, but not to the US or Canada.

He is correct, the vast majority of Mexican and Central American illegal immigrants suffer from the same lack of skill, they settle for extremely horrible wages that require no skill.

That type of immigration is a serious problem, and we should work to prevent it. These people become a burden to the state and are logically likely to be more dangerous because they are facing hard barriers that will prevent any sort of social or economic fulfillment.

And we do that by opening the borders and making it easier for immigrants (and everyone, for that matter) to acquire marketable labor skills and create a freer labor market that rewards those with the most will, because they will be of relatively equal skill.

Why exactly should our tax dollars go toward educating untrained immigrants to cause more competition in employment?